Dual Epik Empires vs a single A7-450 with SPA1000

[timoteo]

Dr. Funk
My claim about Epik subs having a bad wrap with their amps is based on reading & hearing how many people have had to return their amps for repair. Yes they were mostly under warranty still but it is still a headache to go through. Im glad to hear that your Epik has been running good & clean for the time youve had it. However that does not mean that all those other cases didnt happen. I personally would not get an Epik because of their dependability issues. If those problems have been fixed or are in the future then i would put them on my short list. But until then....

B.S?.....i have to politely disagree with that.

 

[gtpsuper24]

Epik must be taking really good care of the customers that have had amps go bad, I have really seen any thing recently about Epik.

Now ED on the other hand is really bad about timely replacements and communicating with their customers. Its one excuse after the other about why stuff isn't getting done.

 

[timoteo]

The complete package offerings of:
Great sound quality
Great reliability
Great customer service

Has made me narrow my top subwoofer companies to HSU, SVS & Emotiva. There are other decent options but IMO but these are the ones i'd recommend.

 

[nezff]

The 450s woofer is larger but it isn't better built. Its based off the 13av.2 woofer motor which is a nice sub, but it uses cheap spiders that tear easily and tensel leads that are very badly attached. I know I own two of them since '08 and have had to reglue the tensels down twice. Not sure about the 18" drivers but the 13av drivers that the 450 drivers are based off of does not have any midbass to it at all. Rolls off at 50-60hz.

The SVS on the other hand is much better build, nicer finish and better more reliable amps. I have though about the 450eD sub but read that it has great output but it kind of sucks for music. One described it as "flubby" sounding. It also is kind of a knock off of Epics older Conquest sub.

How can you compare a 13 inch woofer to the custom built 18 in the A7-450. Just because you might have had a problem with that lower end woofer, doesnt mean the TOTALLY different custom built 18 will have the same problem. I had two A5-350s and never had a single problem with either, and they didnt roll off at the frequencies you posted.

 

[nezff]

Epik must be taking really good care of the customers that have had amps go bad, I have really seen any thing recently about Epik.

Now ED on the other hand is really bad about timely replacements and communicating with their customers. Its one excuse after the other about why stuff isn't getting done.

I have never had a problem with eD and have three different subs from them. I can call them right now and get something done. All you hear on forums from people are the supposed problems and most of them are not telling the WHOLE truth.

 

[nezff]

As far as performance between the SVS Ultra and the eD A7-450, I can't claim to have heard a direct head-to-head. I have heard the newest SVSound PB13-Ultra DSP, and I have heard the eD A7-350, which, obviously, is a smaller 15" sub as compared to the A7-450, but it uses the same amp and a similar design in other respects (eg. design and general component structure of the driver, build quality of the cabinet, etc.)

To put it plainly, the PB13-Ultra DSP is the best subwoofer I have ever heard, save for the extremely expensive JL Audio Gotham g213. There is far more to a subwoofer than just sheer output. And, indeed, it might be the case that the A7-450 can produce higher SPL, given its larger driver. But the question is: at what sort of distortion level and with what sort of accuracy and linearity?

No question, the A7-350 that I heard was capable of tons of output. But it did not possess the same tightness and control as the newest SVSound Ultra and Plus subwoofers. It's rather hard to pick out distortion in really low bass by ear, but, without question, picking out distinct notes in deep bass passages was far harder on the eD than on the SVS, which typically indicates higher distortion.

It's also important to not be fooled by specs given on digital amps. The Sledge amp in the SVSound subwoofers these days is the most sophisticated and capable amp I've come across - and that's without any consideration of price. While the amps used in eD's subs might be able to hit the claimed 1300 Watts for a second or two, they can't sustain that sort of power output in real life. The SVS Sledge amps, on the other hand, can actually deliver their spec'd output, and do so over a lengthy period of time.

If you're worried about output capabilities of the PC13-Ultra DSP cylinder, I have my own listening experience, which was a heavily damped 23' x 27' x 9.5' dubbing stage, in which the PB13-Ultra DSP was able to play louder than I could personally stand for more than a few seconds. And to back that up, there are the recent Audioholics measurements, which indicate that the PB13-Ultra DSP can hit 115dB output levels with a 2 meter measuring distance in a quasi-anechoic environment, and can CLEANLY deliver 110dB SUSTAINED output all the way down to 20Hz with rather ridiculously low distortion.

Could the A7-450 play even louder? Like I said, I can't say for sure, since I've not heard it for myself. But given what I heard with the A7-350, I rather strongly doubt that the A7-450 can deliver the same sort of sustained output levels, and I'm virtually positive that it cannot match the linearity, transient response and low distortion.

The PC cylinder version brings the delivered price to well within the same ballpark. And it's worth noting that it's a mere 16" around, meaning that it takes up rather little floor space. If you're ok with a tall tube, rather than a huge fat box, there's no better value that the PC13-Ultra DSP for your usage, IMO.

At the first of the post you claim that you have never heard them head to head. You havent ever heard the A7450. Also you state about the power output of the two different amps. You have NO idea whether your cherished SVS amp produces any of the power you claim it does. Have you tested the eD amp? How do you know it doesnt produce over 1300watts?(1400+ to be exact)

How do you know that the eD sub is not better than your pride and joy SVS? I know that SVS's best sub is $2000 by the time it ships to you.

Basically why claim that you havent heard something, then basically speculate that eD is so inferior to your SVS sub.

 

[gtpsuper24]

How can you compare a 13 inch woofer to the custom built 18 in the A7-450. Just because you might have had a problem with that lower end woofer, doesnt mean the TOTALLY different custom built 18 will have the same problem. I had two A5-350s and never had a single problem with either, and they didnt roll off at the frequencies you posted.

I never said they are totally identical. I remember reading that someone asked about the A7450 woofer and was told that its built off the 13av.2s motor and magnet. 13av.2 is a woofer for deep extension its midbass rolls off around 60-70hz it does not have the strong midbas that the A5-350s do. Alex will tell you that the 13av.2s strong suit ISN'T midbass. Also I did not say that the A7 450s woofer was prone to the same issues of the 13av.2, my tensel leads have came apart twice and needed to be reglued.

Of course the A5-350s will have a different response then the 13av.2 and the A7 450.

 

[gtpsuper24]

I have never had a problem with eD and have three different subs from them. I can call them right now and get something done. All you hear on forums from people are the supposed problems and most of them are not telling the WHOLE truth.

Good for you. But don't say that others are lying if they've had problems. Its nice to really like a brand but if someone has a problem with a product saying they are just lying doesn't help anyone and it can put eD in a negative light.

 

[lsiberian]

How can you compare a 13 inch woofer to the custom built 18 in the A7-450. Just because you might have had a problem with that lower end woofer, doesnt mean the TOTALLY different custom built 18 will have the same problem. I had two A5-350s and never had a single problem with either, and they didnt roll off at the frequencies you posted.

I have never had a problem with eD and have three different subs from them. I can call them right now and get something done. All you hear on forums from people are the supposed problems and most of them are not telling the WHOLE truth.

At the first of the post you claim that you have never heard them head to head. You havent ever heard the A7450. Also you state about the power output of the two different amps. You have NO idea whether your cherished SVS amp produces any of the power you claim it does. Have you tested the eD amp? How do you know it doesnt produce over 1300watts?(1400+ to be exact)

How do you know that the eD sub is not better than your pride and joy SVS? I know that SVS's best sub is $2000 by the time it ships to you.

Basically why claim that you havent heard something, then basically speculate that eD is so inferior to your SVS sub.

We all get that you love eD and they are a fantastic Subwoofer brand. I have no doubt that a proper designed 18" eD would have deeper extension and better bass than an SVS Ultra. Both subs would be enormous and I honestly don't recommend them outside of custom home theater rooms.

That being said SVS has a better track record and the best finish quality I've seen.

Now you want to talk plate amps. I will tell you without flinching there is no way that plate amp(rebadged Keiga) delivers 1400 RMS watts. It's been tested at around 800 RMS which is great for a plate amp of any kind, and while SVS has switched to a new technology I'm not familiar with I'm betting it's around 800 RMS too.

From my review of the build and design I'd say the eD wins. I would not recommend a plate amp for the eD sub though. If you want to get the most out of that driver you will need a pro amp. This means a more challenging setup.

 

[FirstReflection]

@nezff

Dude, calm down You're reacting like my recommendations are some sort of personal attack against you or eD. Far from it. You like your eD subs. That's good! You'd recommend them to other people. That's good too! I've got no beef with eD or people who own and love their subs. I firmly believe that eD's subs are a remarkably good value. When it comes to the build quality of their cabinets or their sheer SPL output capabilities? Awesome. For the price they're charging? Amazing.

But you seem to only be seeing and focusing on the negative. You think a comparison to the old Epik Conquest is some sort of a knock against the A7-450?! The Epik Conquest was revered!

You've got to look at it this way: I'm coming from the position where the A7-450 is the leading candidate for the OP right now. That seems to be the way he's leaning. And if he buys the A7-450, I've virtually no doubt that he's going to be extremely happy with its output.

BUT, I've heard the SVS PB13-Ultra DSP for myself and I was EXTREMELY impressed by it. You've got to understand that I've heard a lot of great subs in that dubbing stage. And I'm also REALLY picky when it comes to performance. I'm saying that the SVS PB13-Ultra DSP completely went above my expectations and - if it were MY money to spend on a subwoofer in a room similar to the OP's? - the PC13-Ultra DSP cylinder is what I would choose because of what I heard for myself, because of what I've heard from other subwoofers, and because at $1700 delivered, I don't think any other sub could do better for the same price as the PC13-Ultra DSP cylinder.

So I'm making a case for the SVS. I'm pointing out its strengths and where I think those strengths are superior to the A7-450. How do I know about the sort of power that the A7-450's amp can deliver? Because I know a little bit about how digital amps work, and from the fact that the A7-350 uses the exact same amp, which couldn't deliver the same sustained output as its short term "burst" or "peak" output - exactly in line with what happens to the output of virtually any subwoofer using a digital amp. The PB13-Ultra DSP, on the other hand, produced sustained output that was comparatively louder to its "peak" output. It was unusual. Meaning that the Sledge amp was producing something closer to its rated power in a sustained fashion than any other digital amp that I've ever come across.

So just try to see the glass "half-full" instead of "half-empty". I'm making a case for the SVS PC13-Ultra DSP because I think it's simply fantastic and I've never been more impressed by a sub for its price. The OP was primarily worried about output capabilities - I'm pointing to my own listening experience, PLUS the professional measurements that indicate that the new SVS Ultra subs have around 3dB more output across the board vs the old BASH powered Ultra subs from SVS, which puts it right in line with the output capabilities of the old Epik Conquest, which, like I said, was revered for its output! Can I say for absolute certain that the A7-450 can't do better? No. Which is exactly why I made SURE to mention that I hadn't heard them head-to-head so that the OP knows I'm not trying to talk about stuff that I don't know for sure. However, I've got a lot of listening experience, including the A7-350 that uses the same amp and very similar design, as well as the old Epik Conquest, and I'm making an educated guess that the A7-450's performance would be similar. It's not some complete shot in the dark. Or completely wild speculation. I'm looking at subs with similar components, specs, design - and drawing a conclusion that the A7-450 is likely to be similar. I think that's pretty reasonable. And not misleading because I'm saying it very plainly.

The real question is - how are you, nezff, so certain that the PC13-Ultra DSP is a bad choice for the OP? Would you like it if I assumed that you thought the PC13-Ultra DSP was "so inferior" to the A7-450? Or wouldn't that just be unfair of me to turn it around like that and be all prickly and take it personally somehow?

The OP is here, looking for some advice. I assume that if he had the funds, he'd just buy every sub that he's considering, audition them for himself, and pay the return costs to send back the ones he doesn't keep. But the fact that he's here on a message board, looking for opinions, indicates to me that he probably wants to buy one sub and keep it - probably due to NOT having unlimited funds.

So I'm making a case for MY pick and what I would buy if it were MY money. That's all. You're saying that you'd choose to buy an eD sub - like the ones that you've already bought and clearly feel emotionally attached to, for some reason. Cool. The OP can take those opinions and decide for himself.

 

[nezff]

Good for you. But don't say that others are lying if they've had problems. Its nice to really like a brand but if someone has a problem with a product saying they are just lying doesn't help anyone and it can put eD in a negative light.

Where in the world in that post did i use the word "lying"? I just know most of the problems were not documented with the whole story. People getting upset with a driver frying because they ran it so high, they fried the voice coil etc...

 

[nezff]

As far as the original question for the OP, the Epiks are sealed which will yield a more musical sub. For home theater(movies), a ported design will give you the most output.

Not sure you budget, but two A7 450s if you could swing it.

 

[its phillip]

Where in the world in that post did i use the word "lying"? I just know most of the problems were not documented with the whole story. People getting upset with a driver frying because they ran it so high, they fried the voice coil etc...

Those are just your assumptions. It's entirely possible their amp or driver went out during normal, non-stressed usage. It's entirely possible we are hearing the whole story from the folks who have had driver or amp issues.

Of course, there are tons of satisfied ED customers who have never had amp or driver issues and/or who have had any issues resolved quickly and to their satisfaction. Unfortunately, a happy customer is generally the least vocal, whereas a dissatisfied customer tends to be the opposite and we only hear the bad news.

With that being said, I think the A7-450 would have a TON of output. If I was to purchase that sub, I would definitely go with the Behringer or Dayton amp instead of the ED LT1300.

 

[gtpsuper24]

Where in the world in that post did i use the word "lying"? I just know most of the problems were not documented with the whole story. People getting upset with a driver frying because they ran it so high, they fried the voice coil etc...

You know for a fact huh? So if someone posts that their eD sub's amp went bad obviously its partly or all of the customers fault and not eD? If its made by a person there is going to be batches that will have problems that just slip past. It doesn't mean the owner F'ed it up some how.

 

[nezff]

Those are just your assumptions. It's entirely possible their amp or driver went out during normal, non-stressed usage. It's entirely possible we are hearing the whole story from the folks who have had driver or amp issues.

Of course, there are tons of satisfied ED customers who have never had amp or driver issues and/or who have had any issues resolved quickly and to their satisfaction. Unfortunately, a happy customer is generally the least vocal, whereas a dissatisfied customer tends to be the opposite and we only hear the bad news.

With that being said, I think the A7-450 would have a TON of output. If I was to purchase that sub, I would definitely go with the Behringer or Dayton amp instead of the ED LT1300.

Im laughing at the bold.

Anyway, back on track. Why would you go with the Dayton amp over the LT1300?

 

[nezff]

dont forget these: From some of the reviews on AVS, they are awesome:

JTR Speakers |  Captivator 1000

 

[its phillip]

Im laughing at the bold.

Anyway, back on track. Why would you go with the Dayton amp over the LT1300?

Feel free to laugh all you want - you are clearly making broad assumptions and obviously don't know every single detail in regards to each failed driver or amp.

I would go with the Dayton amp simply because I haven't read anything bad about them, unlike the stories on AVS about the LT1300. Even if I didn't care about that, the LT1300 is currently unavailable so the only amps available are the Dayton or Behringer

 

[nezff]

I was actually debating going with the iNuke 6000 which isnt available until next year. out of stock.
or the Dayton 1000/Lt1300

What bad things have you read about the LT

 

[K-Dubb]

I like both option a lot right now. PC13 and a7-450. PC13 seems to be a safer bet since there is sooo much info on them.

I would also like to know more about the dayton amp as that would be the only option for a plate amp right now if I went with the a7 450.

On the pro amp (Behringer), what else would I need to make this work? If my receiver has audessy xt, is that all I would need? If I went this route I would get either the 2500 or 4000 as ED told me the subs are good for 2000rms.

 

[nezff]

LT1300 watt amp making 1369 watts more than one second