Dual Epik Empires vs a single A7-450 with SPA1000

[K-Dubb]

Hi,

I was wondering which would be better for my situation. My room layout with current sub position (CSX-15 Gen 1)

This is about 5600 cubic feet total open space (includes kitchen, dining, living room, and hallways).

I am 98% movies, 2% music. I want to really feel my bass, and I want it to go low. I would love to have that kick in the chest feeling. Which one of these would do it for me?

Sub location:

If I got the 450, the only option for it is to go on the right side of the sectional (if you are looking at the sectional from the TV). So it would be wedged between the sectional and the wall, firing at the TV. If I go for the smaller empires, I could put 2 up front, or 1 up front and 1 beside the couch.

I can plug ports on the 450 to make it go pretty low.


Thanks!

 

[bikdav]

My Loose Thought

Wow. That looks like a BIG room. The dual Epik Empires sounds like the better option. That way, you can experiment with placement _ which will most likely be necessary.

 

[K-Dubb]

Wow. That looks like a BIG room. The dual Epik Empires sounds like the better option. That way, you can experiment with placement _ which will most likely be necessary.

As far as placement I do not have many options due to the wife.

 

[GranteedEV]

As far as placement I do not have many options due to the wife.

All the more reason to use multiple subs as the more subs you have the less placement matters.

I recommend 2X HSU VTF-15 btw.

 

[timoteo]

A big +1 from me as well about dual VTF-15h subs!!

Epiks have a bad wrap because of their faulty amplifiers.

ED is known for a lot of output capabilities but at the expense of good clean quality bass.

This is why id highly recommend you consider dual VTF-15hs at $1760 plus tax & shipping.
OR
Actually now that i think of it, for $1360+T&S you could run exactly what i have. A single VTF-15h & an MBM-12. I have been raving about how great my system sounds & i can honestly say that HSU makes some of the best subs ive ever heard! Not only ammi getting massive output for movies but even my wife complimented how good they have made music sound. For her to comment was big.

I have a very large area to fill as well, approx 7,000cuft. They sounded great after just doing a sub crawl & plopping them down. But i just spent the last week taking room measurements, getting them set just right & EQing them. I cannot believe how much that improved their performance. I am so haply with the results & that is why i am telling you to at least look into this combo.

Look there are more than one good oltions for you to choose from. Non that you are considering are bad. So at least your on the right track. I would call Epik, HSU, ED & SVS giving them your room measurement & getting their feedback. Then read some reviews on those products. Take our recommendations into consideration & pull the trigger on your choice.

I recommend the HSU subs.

 

[FirstReflection]

Very large room where you cannot experiment with placement? Personally, I'd go the route of one massively powerful sub with some EQ in your situation with your budget. Contrary to the notion that multiple subs are ALWAYS a better choice - that's only true if you can position them properly so that they work as a cohesive unit. Having dual or more subs does not automatically mean better sound. Positioned improperly, they can actually work against one another at your primary seating location if you don't have the option to measure and move them into the best possible locations. All you're really doing with multiple subs is creating a "phantom" subwoofer. It's much the same as using just your front L and R speakers to create a "phantom" center speaker. Imagine if you could not optimally place your front L/R speakers and you were left with the resulting "phantom" center created by L/R speakers that were placed out of position! Now, granted, you are not trying to create good "imaging" with your subwoofer, but you ARE still creating a "phantom" sub - so the idea is to be able to virtually place that "phantom" sub in the best possible location in your room. The best place for bass is typically out, into the room where a physical subwoofer would be in the way. So dual or more subs can virtually place that "phantom" subwoofer in a spot where a physical subwoofer cannot go. If you're unable to properly position your dual subs in this way, you're not really reaping the benefits of dual subs and you can wind up putting your "phantom" sub in a worse spot than just a single physical subwoofer!

So I'd recommend getting a single, massively powerful subwoofer. And for your budget, there's no better choice than a cylinder SVSound PC13-Ultra DSP. If you're already ok with the price of the eD A7-450, the SVSound PC13-Ultra DSP should be within reach. Don't forget that the PC13-Ultra DSP's $1700 price includes shipping

I'd suggest leaving the PC13-Ultra DSP in its natural 20Hz mode with no port plugs for maximum output with minimum distortion. You can use the PC13-Ultra DSP's built-in 2-band EQ to tame the two worst standing wave bass peaks in your room. You also don't have to worry about ever over-driving the PC13-Ultra DSP. It is unbreakable. If the signal ever exceeds the PC13-Ultra DSP's output capabilities, the PC13-Ultra DSP will simply play as loud as it is safely able to do so and will not ever harm itself due to the masterful protection implemented in its Sledge amp.

Lest anyone get me wrong - I'm ALL for dual or quad subs. But only if you can position them properly to reap the benefits. Without proper placement, all you're doing is plunking a "phantom" subwoofer wherever your limited placement options happen to allow. And that isn't necessarily going to be a good place for bass, so I'd personally recommend just going with the single, massive output subwoofer for now

 

[K-Dubb]

Very large room where you cannot experiment with placement? Personally, I'd go the route of one massively powerful sub with some EQ in your situation with your budget. Contrary to the notion that multiple subs are ALWAYS a better choice - that's only true if you can position them properly so that they work as a cohesive unit. Having dual or more subs does not automatically mean better sound. Positioned improperly, they can actually work against one another at your primary seating location if you don't have the option to measure and move them into the best possible locations. All you're really doing with multiple subs is creating a "phantom" subwoofer. It's much the same as using just your front L and R speakers to create a "phantom" center speaker. Imagine if you could not optimally place your front L/R speakers and you were left with the resulting "phantom" center created by L/R speakers that were placed out of position! Now, granted, you are not trying to create good "imaging" with your subwoofer, but you ARE still creating a "phantom" sub - so the idea is to be able to virtually place that "phantom" sub in the best possible location in your room. The best place for bass is typically out, into the room where a physical subwoofer would be in the way. So dual or more subs can virtually place that "phantom" subwoofer in a spot where a physical subwoofer cannot go. If you're unable to properly position your dual subs in this way, you're not really reaping the benefits of dual subs and you can wind up putting your "phantom" sub in a worse spot than just a single physical subwoofer!

So I'd recommend getting a single, massively powerful subwoofer. And for your budget, there's no better choice than a cylinder SVSound PC13-Ultra DSP. If you're already ok with the price of the eD A7-450, the SVSound PC13-Ultra DSP should be within reach. Don't forget that the PC13-Ultra DSP's $1700 price includes shipping

I'd suggest leaving the PC13-Ultra DSP in its natural 20Hz mode with no port plugs for maximum output with minimum distortion. You can use the PC13-Ultra DSP's built-in 2-band EQ to tame the two worst standing wave bass peaks in your room. You also don't have to worry about ever over-driving the PC13-Ultra DSP. It is unbreakable. If the signal ever exceeds the PC13-Ultra DSP's output capabilities, the PC13-Ultra DSP will simply play as loud as it is safely able to do so and will not ever harm itself due to the masterful protection implemented in its Sledge amp.

Lest anyone get me wrong - I'm ALL for dual or quad subs. But only if you can position them properly to reap the benefits. Without proper placement, all you're doing is plunking a "phantom" subwoofer wherever your limited placement options happen to allow. And that isn't necessarily going to be a good place for bass, so I'd personally recommend just going with the single, massive output subwoofer for now

Exactly. I only 3 options for placement if I am using smaller subs like the epik (see first post). If it is one big sub, I have 1 option for placement pretty much (see first post). I looked at the SVS, but:

1. I have my doubts that it can beat the a7-450 in output. Once you plug a port on the 450, I am told you can get 10hz (room dependent). Not to mention it is a massive 18" with 30xmax one way. Not saying the svs isn't a great sub, but I just don't know if it can match the a7-450 in my room.
2. The price i am seeing is 2000 shipped.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[K-Dubb]

Looking at pics of the woofers, I don't see how the svs can beat the 450 in output enough to be worth 300 dollars more. I could be wrong though as I have never heard either, but it would see the 18 would be able to fill my room better.

SVS:

A7-450:

To the other responses, I originally was considering the HSU, until I realized I would need more than just one of them for my space. dual HSU's are too big.

 

[DrFunk]

A big +1 from me as well about dual VTF-15h subs!!

Epiks have a bad wrap because of their faulty amplifiers.



I recommend the HSU subs.

I'm sorry , but where are you getting this BS from? I myself have an empire, and have no "faulty amp" issues at all.

 

[gtpsuper24]

Looking at pics of the woofers, I don't see how the svs can beat the 450 in output enough to be worth 300 dollars more. I could be wrong though as I have never heard either, but it would see the 18 would be able to fill my room better.

The 450s woofer is larger but it isn't better built. Its based off the 13av.2 woofer motor which is a nice sub, but it uses cheap spiders that tear easily and tensel leads that are very badly attached. I know I own two of them since '08 and have had to reglue the tensels down twice. Not sure about the 18" drivers but the 13av drivers that the 450 drivers are based off of does not have any midbass to it at all. Rolls off at 50-60hz.

The SVS on the other hand is much better build, nicer finish and better more reliable amps. I have though about the 450eD sub but read that it has great output but it kind of sucks for music. One described it as "flubby" sounding. It also is kind of a knock off of Epics older Conquest sub.

 

[K-Dubb]

The 450s woofer is larger but it isn't better built. Its based off the 13av.2 woofer motor which is a nice sub, but it uses cheap spiders that tear easily and tensel leads that are very badly attached. I know I own two of them since '08 and have had to reglue the tensels down twice. Not sure about the 18" drivers but the 13av drivers that the 450 drivers are based off of does not have any midbass to it at all. Rolls off at 50-60hz.

The SVS on the other hand is much better build, nicer finish and better more reliable amps. I have though about the 450eD sub but read that it has great output but it kind of sucks for music. One described it as "flubby" sounding. It also is kind of a knock off of Epics older Conquest sub.

Hey gtpsuper24, thanks for your response. I believe the 450 was redone in 09. I wonder if some of these items were addressed then? Also you are talking about the ported version and not he a7s correct? Also, I don't care about music as I am mainly HT.

Thanks.

 

[gtpsuper24]

I took a look at some other pictures of that driver and compared to the 13av.2 woofer and the leads look better than the 13av.2s. So they must have done some upgrades to it.

That woofer thats in the picture compared to the Ultra is only used in the ported version not the sealed A7s450.

 

[bikdav]

Looking at pics of the woofers, I don't see how the svs can beat the 450 in output enough to be worth 300 dollars more. I could be wrong though as I have never heard either, but it would see the 18 would be able to fill my room better.

SVS:

A7-450:

To the other responses, I originally was considering the HSU, until I realized I would need more than just one of them for my space. dual HSU's are too big.

What is that huge monster sub pictured on the right? That looks massive.

 

[gtpsuper24]

What is that huge monster sub pictured on the right? That looks massive.

The woofer for this sub Elemental Designs: Car Stereo, Home Speakers, Electronics

 

[K-Dubb]

I took a look at some other pictures of that driver and compared to the 13av.2 woofer and the leads look better than the 13av.2s. So they must have done some upgrades to it.

That woofer thats in the picture compared to the Ultra is only used in the ported version not the sealed A7s450.

Yep exactly! The ported version is the one I have been talking about..

 

[FirstReflection]

Just to clarify, when I mentioned the $1700 delivered price, I was talking about the cylinder SVS Ultra, not the box, which is $2000 delivered, like you said. The PC13-Ultra DSP, not the PB13-Ultra DSP

As far as performance between the SVS Ultra and the eD A7-450, I can't claim to have heard a direct head-to-head. I have heard the newest SVSound PB13-Ultra DSP, and I have heard the eD A7-350, which, obviously, is a smaller 15" sub as compared to the A7-450, but it uses the same amp and a similar design in other respects (eg. design and general component structure of the driver, build quality of the cabinet, etc.)

To put it plainly, the PB13-Ultra DSP is the best subwoofer I have ever heard, save for the extremely expensive JL Audio Gotham g213. There is far more to a subwoofer than just sheer output. And, indeed, it might be the case that the A7-450 can produce higher SPL, given its larger driver. But the question is: at what sort of distortion level and with what sort of accuracy and linearity?

No question, the A7-350 that I heard was capable of tons of output. But it did not possess the same tightness and control as the newest SVSound Ultra and Plus subwoofers. It's rather hard to pick out distortion in really low bass by ear, but, without question, picking out distinct notes in deep bass passages was far harder on the eD than on the SVS, which typically indicates higher distortion.

It's also important to not be fooled by specs given on digital amps. The Sledge amp in the SVSound subwoofers these days is the most sophisticated and capable amp I've come across - and that's without any consideration of price. While the amps used in eD's subs might be able to hit the claimed 1300 Watts for a second or two, they can't sustain that sort of power output in real life. The SVS Sledge amps, on the other hand, can actually deliver their spec'd output, and do so over a lengthy period of time.

If you're worried about output capabilities of the PC13-Ultra DSP cylinder, I have my own listening experience, which was a heavily damped 23' x 27' x 9.5' dubbing stage, in which the PB13-Ultra DSP was able to play louder than I could personally stand for more than a few seconds. And to back that up, there are the recent Audioholics measurements, which indicate that the PB13-Ultra DSP can hit 115dB output levels with a 2 meter measuring distance in a quasi-anechoic environment, and can CLEANLY deliver 110dB SUSTAINED output all the way down to 20Hz with rather ridiculously low distortion.

Could the A7-450 play even louder? Like I said, I can't say for sure, since I've not heard it for myself. But given what I heard with the A7-350, I rather strongly doubt that the A7-450 can deliver the same sort of sustained output levels, and I'm virtually positive that it cannot match the linearity, transient response and low distortion.

The PC cylinder version brings the delivered price to well within the same ballpark. And it's worth noting that it's a mere 16" around, meaning that it takes up rather little floor space. If you're ok with a tall tube, rather than a huge fat box, there's no better value that the PC13-Ultra DSP for your usage, IMO.

 

[K-Dubb]

Thank you for your reply. I did not realize you were talking about the cylinder version. So do you think for a space my size, that the SVS would hit just as hard midbass as an 18" with 1000 watts(Dayton 1000watt amp is the one I would get) in my large space? I do understand that it would probably extend deeper, but I do want the midbass chest slam as well.

Thanks again for your very lengthy response. It is much appreciated.

 

[FirstReflection]

Yeah, it'd only be pure speculation and a guess on my part. I'd venture that for just a quick burst (not a sustained note or passage), the A7-450 could probably deliver a higher momentary SPL than the PC13-Ultra DSP. If it can pump something close to its rated 1300 Watts into that 18" driver, it's just physics - that ought to move more air than the SVS Ultra!

But, like I said, I have rather serious doubts that it could do so with the same sort of low distortion, linearity, accuracy, transient response and certainly not in a sustained fashion.

As someone else pointed out, the A7-450 is somewhat similar in design to the old, discontinued Epik Conquest. Way back when, the Conquest was able to produce higher SPL than the old 750 Watt BASH amp'd SVS Ultra with the old 13" driver. Since then, the new Ultra has up'd its output by a good 3 dB across the board. And in that lower mid-bass region that you asked about, the new Ultra DSP models are hitting around 117 dB with around 6% distortion using a 2 meter ground plane measurement in a quasi-anechoic environment. That is crazy, crazy loud! Literally dangerously loud, as that sort of SPL could easily damage your hearing if it were sustained for 10 minutes or so.

In other words, if the A7-450 is roughly the same in terms of sheer SPL output as the old Conquest, the new SVS Ultra DSP is within about 1-3dB of it. That's still significant. 3dB more output means a doubling of power if we're just talking about Watts into a perfectly linear power response load. But I would venture that the 120dB or so output that the PC13-Ultra DSP could produce in your room is more than you could rightly stand for any length of time. It was more than I could tolerate in that dubbing stage!

So, like I said, if the A7-450 is around the same as the old Epik Conquest (which I don't know for sure that it is, but it's just a rough sort of estimate), then it might be able to hit something in the range of 123 dB at 50Hz in your room, while the SVS Ultra DSP will hit around 120 dB at 50Hz in your room (and that much is known for sure). Is that extra 3 dB in the lower mid-bass necessary (assuming that it's even possible, which I'm not certain that it is)? Is it worth giving up tight transient response, accuracy, linearity and 10-15% more distortion? Personally, I would say "no". 120 dB sustained output in room is literally painful and enough to damage your hearing within 5 minutes. It's also hitting that SPL with under around only 6% distortion, which means that you won't notice that it sounds "loud". We associate distortion with loudness subjectively. Something sounds "loud" when it is "noisy", which means full of distortion. With such low distortion, you'll literally be feeling the pressure waves from the SVS Ultra before your hearing warns you that it's too loud. Kinda scary, actually

So, once again, I'm making an educated guess about the A7-450 based on the old Epik Conquest. But with the same size driver and similar amplifier, I think it's a reasonable guess. The old Conquest was able to out SPL the old 750 Watt SVS Ultra by a little over 3 dB across the board. But the new Sledge amp'd SVS Ultra ups its output by about 3dB across the board. So it's pretty much in the same ballpark now. But the new Ultra is making that SPL with extremely low distortion and super tight, super accurate, linear response. That's something the smaller A7-350 certainly didn't match, and I've little reason to think the A7-450 would be significantly better in those areas.

120 dB in room at 50Hz. If that ain't enough for you, then I guess you just hate your eardrums

 

[K-Dubb]

Oh i agree, that would be plenty. I don't want to damage my hearing, i just want to make sure i feel the slam as my current csx-15 is very underwelming. I will not be listing at full volume, just want to feel it as much as possible for what I have within my price range.


I have been reading about the pb13 vs the pc13. There are not many reviews that I could find on the PC13, as most are for the pb13. I did read the pc13 is more prone to port chuffing, and also that it does not perform as well as the pb13. I believe this was talking about the older model though (750 watt). Is this still true with the latest model?

Also, what else changed besides going from a 750watt to a 1000watt amp? You mentioned the woofer has been changed as well?

 

[FirstReflection]

Yeah, I think what you're seeing with those PB vs PC comparisons was from a few generations back. Way back when, SVS used to offer three cylinder sizes, and then you would choose which driver and amp combo to put into your chosen size. As a result, if you put the old Ultra driver and most powerful BASH amp into one of the shorter cylinders, you'd end up getting port chuffing and non-linear response. These days, SVS only offers one cylinder size for each level of driver, so you get a better designed match I've seen comparisons where the box version still looks a tiny but better in terms of max clean output and linearity, but then again, those weren't pro measurements and I strongly suspect that the forward firing driver of the PB vs the downward firing driver of the PC had a lot to do with those measured differences. Regardless, the current PC's performance is virtually identical to the PB's.

The Ultra driver has gone through several version models. Each time, the design was refined a little bit. The newest version has the highest x-max (excursion) ever. Combined with the new Sledge amp, you get that extra 3 dB of output and the lower distortion. Also, the Sledge amp is in a totally different class than a BASH amp. It's over twice as powerful in practice, despite the mere 1000 vs 750 Watt rating.