0 db

[moves]

Is it safe for speakers to have an AVR at 0 db or greater?

 

[GranteedEV]

Is it safe for speakers to have an AVR at 0 db or greater?

That depends on the speakers and the seating distance and the amplifier. It also greatly depends on the dynamic nature of the source content you are listening to.

 

[edoggrc51]

Is it safe for speakers to have an AVR at 0 db or greater?

As long as all your gear is able to handle that kind of volume, sure it's safe. Might go deaf listening at those levels, but that's another story.

 

[walter duque]

Is it safe for speakers to have an AVR at 0 db or greater?

How much power is your AVR and how much headroom do you have?

 

[PENG]

That depends on the speakers and the seating distance and the amplifier. It also greatly depends on the dynamic nature of the source content you are listening to.

That probably covers everything that matter.

 

[highfigh]

Is it safe for speakers to have an AVR at 0 db or greater?

The only reason it goes to 0dB or higher is for program material with lower than average level. If the volume control actually reflects the output power, then NO, it's not safe. Music is dynamic and most amplifiers don't have much headroom. If the average level is equivalent to the maximum power and a 10dB peak comes up, there's no way the amp will reproduce it without clipping. If you play older CDs or vinyl, you'll see that peaks can exceed 20db (CDs) and 30dB (vinyl), which requires 100x and 1000x the original power level- neither of which is possible with ANY equipment, never mind a receiver. The speakers will never see clean power when the receiver is run that hard. If you want loud, buy loud, don't treat your receiver or speakers like a farm animal.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Is it safe for speakers to have an AVR at 0 db or greater?

Also depends on how the setup was calibrated.

 

[moves]

I have Totem Forest speakers with a Pioneer avr.... 140 watts/channel. I agree that this is loud (very loud) if I put it at this volume but I am just wondering for the future if I use the speakers in a bigger room. Now I am only probably 6 feet away from the speakers. I usually listen at about -18 db.. Any louder is not comfortable. But if I was further away, I will probably need to put it louder to get the same affect as if I was 6 feet away.

 

[edoggrc51]

I have Totem Forest speakers with a Pioneer avr.... 140 watts/channel. I agree that this is loud (very loud) if I put it at this volume but I am just wondering for the future if I use the speakers in a bigger room. Now I am only probably 6 feet away from the speakers. I usually listen at about -18 db.. Any louder is not comfortable. But if I was further away, I will probably need to put it louder to get the same affect as if I was 6 feet away.

Unless the new room is GIGANTIC I really don't think you'll have to turn up the volume that much more. Especially since you're used to listening at the levels you mentioned above.

 

[highfigh]

I have Totem Forest speakers with a Pioneer avr.... 140 watts/channel. I agree that this is loud (very loud) if I put it at this volume but I am just wondering for the future if I use the speakers in a bigger room. Now I am only probably 6 feet away from the speakers. I usually listen at about -18 db.. Any louder is not comfortable. But if I was further away, I will probably need to put it louder to get the same affect as if I was 6 feet away.

That's true but when the receiver runs out of headroom and average power, you'll be killing tweeters. An amp that has run out of power makes good music sound very bad.

 

[PENG]

That's true but when the receiver runs out of headroom and average power, you'll be killing tweeters. An amp that has run out of power makes good music sound very bad.

What you are saying is true but I would caution that if he buys more power as you suggested earlier, he may also kill his tweeters and/or even the woofers. There is a limit how loud those speakers can play and that limit depends a lot on his room acoustic condition and the SPL he needs. I think an average power of 200WPC (sustained) will damage his speakers. For peaks, it is hard to say, as it depends on the contents, magnitude, and duration of the peaks.

Practically speaking and simply put, it is safe if there is no audible distortion.

 

[moves]

What you are saying is true but I would caution that if he buys more power as you suggested earlier, he may also kill his tweeters and/or even the woofers. There is a limit how loud those speakers can play and that limit depends a lot on his room acoustic condition and the SPL he needs. I think an average power of 200WPC (sustained) will damage his speakers. For peaks, it is hard to say, as it depends on the contents, magnitude, and duration of the peaks.

Practically speaking and simply put, it is safe if there is no audible distortion.

I am not sure how loud the store had them in their demos but they had the same make speakers hooked up to mcintosh 1000 watt monoblocks.

 

[PENG]

I am not sure how loud the store had them in their demos but they had the same make speakers hooked up to mcintosh 1000 watt monoblocks.

Some of the Mc amps have analog wattmeters on the front panel. The store could have hooked them up to even higher power monoblocks and the speakers will still be safe as long as they didn't crank the volume to the point the speaker could not handle. At that point the speakers would most likely sound distorted. On the other hand if the speakers sound loud but nice without audible distortion or harshness then they are likely safe. Had the store people cranked the Mc amp's volume up to produce 200W average they would have toosted the speakers. According to the Sterophile the Forest can handle120W continuous, 200W peak. By the way, the review by Stereophile on the Forest was a thorough one. In case you are interested, below is the link to the review.

Totem Acoustic Forest loudspeaker Specifications | Stereophile.com

Again, as I said in your other thread, those are very nice speakers you have but they are small; and at 87dB/W/M sensitivity they are not designed to play loud so do not push them beyong their limit.

 

[moves]

Some of the Mc amps have analog wattmeters on the front panel. The store could have hooked them up to even higher power monoblocks and the speakers will still be safe as long as they didn't crank the volume to the point the speaker could not handle. At that point the speakers would most likely sound distorted. On the other hand if the speakers sound loud but nice without audible distortion or harshness then they are likely safe. Had the store people cranked the Mc amp's volume up to produce 200W average they would have toosted the speakers. According to the Sterophile the Forest can handle120W continuous, 200W peak. By the way, the review by Stereophile on the Forest was a thorough one. In case you are interested, below is the link to the review.

Totem Acoustic Forest loudspeaker Specifications | Stereophile.com

Again, as I said in your other thread, those are very nice speakers you have but they are small; and at 87dB/W/M sensitivity they are not designed to play loud so do not push them beyong their limit.

thanks for the reply. It's just hard to know what 'loud' is you know what i mean? I have never heard distortion from them so that is a good thing.

whoops... forgot to ask.. what does 120W continuous mean? I got 140W per channel (peak I am guessing). So this would mean that my speakers would be able to handle a 200W - 300W amp?

Oh... and what are your thoughts on hooking it up to a 300W per channel amp?

 

[PENG]

thanks for the reply. It's just hard to know what 'loud' is you know what i mean? I have never heard distortion from them so that is a good thing.

You can buy a SPL (sound pressure level) meter from Radio Shack for about $40. Use the C scale.

what does 120W continuous mean? I got 140W per channel (peak I am guessing). So this would mean that my speakers would be able to handle a 200W - 300W amp?

Your AVR should be able to produce 140W (average power, RMS is not strictly a correct term) continuous. "continuous" should mean literally continuous but in some AV magazine reviews the reviewer could use that term to mean 5, 10 minutes or longer.

Your Forest should be able to handle 200W peaks, or likely more if only for very short durations.

what are your thoughts on hooking it up to a 300W per channel amp?

Again, you are fine to hook it up to 1000 WPC amps as long as you don't actually feed those little speakers with more power (say 200W peaks) than they can handle. Your 140W AVR may be able to output 200W or more peak power, but it may incur some distortion. A 1000W amp will be able to output up to 1000W or 1500W with negligible distortion.

 

[highfigh]

What you are saying is true but I would caution that if he buys more power as you suggested earlier, he may also kill his tweeters and/or even the woofers. There is a limit how loud those speakers can play and that limit depends a lot on his room acoustic condition and the SPL he needs. I think an average power of 200WPC (sustained) will damage his speakers. For peaks, it is hard to say, as it depends on the contents, magnitude, and duration of the peaks.

Practically speaking and simply put, it is safe if there is no audible distortion.

If he launches his speakers because he exceeds the ratings/runs it hard for too long, that's not the manufacturer's fault, nor is it the fault of the equipment. However, he asked if it's safe to run his receiver at -0dB and at 140W, I would say "NO". If he adds power (enough to actually make an audible difference), he's on his own but severe overpowering usually results in more blown woofers than tweeters, assuming the drivers were chosen with a margin of safety WRT power.

Distortion isn't audible until it reaches whole percentage numbers and human ears would have a very hard time distinguishing 10% THD from the music at with an average setting of -0dB. If the speakers run into thermal compression, the speakers won't be long for this world.

Guitar/bass players and PA system designers know how to achieve extremely high SPL without component failure- add power AND speakers. One Watt into one speaker produces a certain SPL but if you add another speaker with its own amplifier that's putting out 1W, the result is 6dB higher, where just doubling the power results in a 3dB increase (on average). Since one channel of amplification won't appreciate a second speaker connected parallel to the first (unless the impedance is high enough that the new load isn't a problem), operating at -0dB may not be a problem and it will produce more SPL. Unfortunately, most receivers aren't made to be run hard and put away wet, as I mentioned. Using a separate amp with another pair of speakers, with signal from the preamp outs, would yield the best results, IMO.

 

[highfigh]

I am not sure how loud the store had them in their demos but they had the same make speakers hooked up to mcintosh 1000 watt monoblocks.

Assuming your receiver can actually put out 140W with both/all channels driven, you'll see about 21.5dB gain from driving both with two channels compared with 1W/ch. If you go to the 1000W amp, you add another 8.5dB to the total output at max power. That's a major difference that can't be achieved using power alone- your speakers won't survive long.

If you want to demo speakers, it's best to run them on similar amplification to what you have.

Here's a calculator for SPL-
Peak SPL Calculator

Enter 280 Watts in this link for the results with two speakers and two channels with your receiver at 3', then compare that with 6' and 12'. You'll notice a 6dB drop every time you double the distance, which is basically the same effect as cutting your power to 25% each time. At 12', 140 Watts is like being 3' from the speakers with the receiver putting out 8.75 Watts.

 

[moves]

The db SPL gave me a reading of 109 db (given my specs) What does this actually mean? Is this calculator telling me how loud my amp will drive my speakers? 109db is friggin loud.

My sensitivity is 87 db. Does this mean that I shouldn't run these speakers louder than 87db? (if i had a SPL meter I would be able to calculate how many dbs this is on the avr display.

thanks for the link!

 

[markw]

Sigh...

As I pointed out when this guy first arrived, I posted specs from the manufacturers web site that pretty much says those speakers won't fill a large room with sound.

See here.

those speakers actually specify a maximum peak SPL and a maximum power handling spec, but it was summarily ignored by him, as were several links explaining the relationship between watts and loudness.

So, he can throw as much power as he wants but they ain't gonna get any louder with any guarantee they won't suffer damage, as per the manufacturer. ...and manufacturers can tell when their product has been abused.

He can't quite seem to grasp the fact that those speakers aren't made for high volume use.

 

[moves]

oops it's written write on the Totem page... I guess I should get an SPL meter to actually check how high 0db is on this amp.

if that's the max peak... does the 87 db sensitivity rating mean that this is the loudest it should sound with continuous power?