Revel vs. KEF vs. Linkwitz - 3 way battle

[AcuDefTechGuy]

100% Subjective comparison.

Room: 14'W x 17'L x 15'H

Speaker setting: Flat. I kept every speaker at the "flat" position or default "flat" 0dB position. The Salon2s & KEF 201/2s have treble and bass setting in the back. The Orions have the crossover setting for treble/bass. Everything is set to flat/0dB/neutral/default.

Distance: Salon2s are 9' apart, Orions are 7' apart, 201/2s are 5' apart. They are 3' from front wall. Listening distance is 10' away.

Amps: Salons get AT3002, 201s get AT3005, Orions get AT6012.

Preamps: Salons & 201s get Denon AVP-A1HD. Orions get Denon AVR-5308. All 3 speakers had the same exact settings. Speakers set to Small, XO @ 80Hz, 2.2 Stereo mode (dual Rythmik D15SE), all level matched to 75dBC, which is 0dB (default setting).

Source: Salons & 201s get Denon DBP-4010UD, Orions get Denon DVD-3800BDCI. Same CD compilation. I have not compared all 18 songs. I listened to 3 songs for now: Eagles "Hotel California, Live, Hell Freezes Over", Five For Fighting "Superman, Smallville Talon Mix", and Eva Cassidy "Time After Time, Smallville Talon Mix".

Volume: All 3 speakers are level matched to MAX VOLUME of 92.5dBC (per Galaxy digital SPL meter); Avg Volume ~ 85dBC.

HOTEL CALIFORNIA:

Subjectively, I think the Salons sounded louder (not fatiguing, but louder, more energetic, lively, clearer) than the Orions & KEFs. I rechecked the SPL meter. All 3 speakers had the same Max Volume during the same song passage. The soundstage/image of the Orions was subjective a little "wider" than the Salon2s & KEFs. The KEF had the disadvantage since they were only 5ft apart. Thus, the soundstage/image seemed a little narrower. The vocals were centered on all speakers. Other than that, I think all 3 speakers performed the same. I listened for the bass guitar to see if the powerful bass overpowered this bass guitar. All 3 did a great job of revealing the bass guitar clearly and distinctly. Instruments sounded clear. Vocals clear.

SUPERMAN:
Again, Salons seemed slightly louder and more energetic, lively, clearer. At the beginning of the song, I hear the acoustic guitar. On both the Salon2 & 201/s, I can very distinctly hear the very fine "plucking/clicking" (for lack of better words) sound from the left speaker. It grabbed me immediately on both the Revel & KEF. However, on the Orions, I could not hear this same detail. The rest of the song seemed equal.

TIME AFTER TIME:
Again, the Salons were louder. This song is basically acoustic guitar and female vocal. During the chorus part "If you fall, I will catch you, I---will be waiting", the vocal is very strong and loud. I wanted to see if the Salon2s sounded fatiguing here. The Salon2 sounded louder here, but it was very smooth, not "edgy" or "piercing" or "fatiguing" IMO. The KEFs sounded the "softest" during this passage. I guess the Orions were in the middle. All sounded smooth and clear.

So based on my listening yesterday, I would probably say the KEF & Revel had slightly more detail in the trebles. The Salon2 sounded the most "lively" and "energetic". The KEF sounded the "softest" or "laid back". The Orions would be in the middle.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Orion update

Okay. GranteedEV asked me to try something:

1) place acoustic panels directly behind and Orions and in front of both racks.
2) move the Orions to 6ft from the front wall.

I don't think the panels did much. If they did something positive, it must have been very minor. I really could not tell.

But when I moved the Orions to 6ft from the front wall, things started to get interesting.

First, the details in the treble improved. The plucking of the guitar strings became very distinct and detailed, just like the Salon2 and KEF 201/2.

Second, I feft like the soundstage widened up even more than before. It sounded extremely good.

So it was the speaker placement all along.

But 6ft from the front wall is just impractical in most rooms, including my current room. I would need a room that is 23ft long or more. Perhaps in the future. But for now, the Orions will have to go back to 3ft from the front wall. At least now I know they can sound even better with more room from the front wall.

 

[GranteedEV]

I don't know what the exact distance they need to be is, but basically you want the rear wave to be delayed by about 20ms by the time it reaches your ears.

The first 10 to 20ms of reflections is the bad stuff - comb filtering and colorations from poor off axis response.

reflections after 20ms supposedly contribute to soundstage like you noticed - this is why absorption panels are problematic - you WANT late reflections to know you're in a real life room.

The other big sources of detail smearing reflections is are wall behind you (broadband diffusion and plenty of travel time are a good idea), and for monopole speakers, the ceiling/floor (supposedly rather offensive, though i've never bothered to do treatments. this is why a lot of people including me opt for MTM speakers, although they only really improve details in the upper midrange (around 1 to 3khz) and not the full audible range) and side walls (we can often give this reflection a good 20ms of delayed travel in a wide enough room).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

93.5dB

I did another comparison. Everything was same as yesterday, except this time the Max Volume was 93.5dBC.

The song was Eva Cassiday's "Time After Time".

I wanted to focus on the female voice.

Yesterday I thought the KEFs sounded slightly softer than both the Salons & Orions. I thought the Salons sounded slightly louder yesterday.

Today it seemed like the KEFs were not any softer than the Salons at all. And the Orions were not any softer than either. Was it because of the increased volume??

I believe the only subjective difference I could hear might be the slightly wider soundstage of the Orions (3ft from front wall). In terms of imaging, clarity, detail, resolution, and smoothness, all 3 seemed dead even.

Of course, in a much bigger room, I bet the Salons would mop the floors with both speakers. But at volumes of ~ 90dB in my room, I think dynamics are completely equal among the 3 speakers.

I have to wonder how do people pick a "winner" when comparing these speakers.

I imagine only experts (like S Olive, F Toole, S Linkwitz, J Salk, D Murphy, Gene, and our local experts like GranteedEV, AJinFL, TLS Guy, and a few other experts) are qualified to judge.

 

[GranteedEV]

Don't be putting me on that list. I would just pick the one with the prettiest veneer

 

[jp_over]

Thanks for the write-up; enjoyed it!

 

[DD66000]

All free standing speakers will benefit from being well away from side and end walls, as far as producing a wide, deep soundstage. The Salon2 I heard in SF were set about 8~10 ft out and about 5 ft from the side walls.
The resulting soundstage was huge.
I experienced the same kind of soundstage in the house I sold in '09, with both my PT800 and custom L212. With the speakers 5 ft from the sides(8ft spread) and about 4.5 ft out.

As I am sure you are aware of, having all three sets of speakers side/side does hurt the sound of all.

 

[cpp]

AcuDefTechGuy ya need a bigger room

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Soundstage/Image

Yeah, a much bigger would certainly help improve the sound quality.

The one thing I've noticed is that all three speakers project a soundstage/image that is BEHIND the speakers.

So giving them even more room from the front wall and between the speakers would improve the SQ.

 

[jinjuku]

Okay. GranteedEV asked me to try something:

1) place acoustic panels directly behind and Orions and in front of both racks.
2) move the Orions to 6ft from the front wall.

So it was the speaker placemen

Placement is going to be critical. That's all I have been tweaking with my Statements the past week. Right now I have them 20" from the back wall and almost 30" from the side walls. This is from 18" back wall and 12" side wall. Made a audible difference in soundstage that I believe I could pick out reliably blind with well known material.

With these being slightly dipole in nature I could only imaging what the Orions really need. I would love a pair but I simply don't have the right room for something like those. I would be willing to bet you need 1500 foot sq room for them to really do what they are designed to do.