Large main speakers

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi all!

I'm sure this as been covered but the forum is huge and I thought I'd ask a specific question about my own system.

It seems that using large main speakers is passé these days; that is, the experts always recommend setting your main speaker size to "small," regardless if you're running 15" bass drivers, so that the bass re-direction circuitry of your amp can sort things out. So the question becomes, what if you have a really good pair of Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater domestic enclosures, and you don't want to set your mains to small? Do I just throw them away and opt for some tiny little bookshelf speakers? How does everyone else handle large main speakers? As added information, I'm using a Denon receiver with a Paradigm Servo 15 sub. Thanks.

- Lee

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've always set my large main speakers to LARGE because they are FULL-RANGE speakers.

If your speakers can truly go below 30 Hz flat, I see no reason why you can't set them to large.

 

[j_garcia]

It depends on the response of the main speakers. The recommendation to set mains to small typically stems from the fact that desipite being physically large, not all main speakers actually are FULL range. If your mains don't go below about 30Hz, then they should be set to small in most cases. The other portion of that is that a sub generally has a dedicated amp and is intended to handle the bass/LFE portion of your audio which means your receiver's amps don't have to do all the "heavy lifting" thus benefiting your total headroom available for the system as a whole.

For music, most receivers have a setting to bypass bass management and let you listen to the mains as large (with or without sub in some cases) without removing all of your calibrated settings.

 

[KEW]

With those speakers, the only reason I would consider running them as small is if their position caused some major room effect issues. One advantage of restricting the low end to a sub is that it allows you to position the sub for better behavior in a room.
Practically speaking, IME there is typically only one location which the speakers can go (maybe with freedom to slide them a couple of feet in different directions) and there are about 6 places a reasonably compact sub (such as yours) could be stashed without getting in the way.
However, having two sources for the bass from your mains does help with room effects, so I'm not sure it isn't a wash.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi all!

I'm sure this as been covered but the forum is huge and I thought I'd ask a specific question about my own system.

It seems that using large main speakers is passé these days; that is, the experts always recommend setting your main speaker size to "small," regardless if you're running 15" bass drivers, so that the bass re-direction circuitry of your amp can sort things out. So the question becomes, what if you have a really good pair of Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater domestic enclosures, and you don't want to set your mains to small? Do I just throw them away and opt for some tiny little bookshelf speakers? How does everyone else handle large main speakers? As added information, I'm using a Denon receiver with a Paradigm Servo 15 sub. Thanks.

- Lee

Absolutely leave them set to large. What set do you have and do you know their F3 point?

Set your sub to shelve in at X 2 the F3 point of those speakers.

Setting speakers to small is for puny speakers and those with inaccurate bass.

With that rig you should be able to make it sound like an old fashioned cinema!

They are not the most accurate speakers, but a unique product and very nostalgic.

You won't tax your receiver setting those speakers to large. You could probably drive those to ear splitting levels with a 3 watt amp or less.

There is not much energy in the bass, It only seems like it takes a lot of energy because most subs are puny and highly inefficient.

I don't use or need a sub. I can threaten domestic destruction with little power used in the bass. My big lines really connect to the room down to 20 Hz.

B & W state that for their larger speakers they should never be set to large.

All my speakers are set to large and that's how they perform best.

There was a paper at the European CES in Amsterdam a couple of years back, showing that not inserting a crossover into good capable speakers gave the best in room bass response.

THX have developed this fad for cutting off good speakers at the knees.

All members here that have capable speakers should at least try their rigs with their speakers set to large. They might get a pleasant surprise, if their speakers have a good accurate bass response.

 

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for the quick responses guys!

I designed (and measured) my boxes with an F3 around 70 Hz. My sub's x-over is set to 150 Hz (full range), and I have to admit the system sounds amazing. I have also found the best layout options for the system.

Sounds as though I could try setting my mains to large and alter the settings in the Denon. Therein lies a mystery to me. I've read the manual a million times and don't fully understand where I should set the x-over points for my mains. I understand the theory of course, having built and designed my own speakers and center channel, but what about the Denon settings? Any opinions?

Thanks again.......Lee

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the quick responses guys!

I designed (and measured) my boxes with an F3 around 70 Hz. My sub's x-over is set to 150 Hz (full range), and I have to admit the system sounds amazing. I have also found the best layout options for the system.

Sounds as though I could try setting my mains to large and alter the settings in the Denon. Therein lies a mystery to me. I've read the manual a million times and don't fully understand where I should set the x-over points for my mains. I understand the theory of course, having built and designed my own speakers and center channel, but what about the Denon settings? Any opinions?

Thanks again.......Lee

Go to your speaker set up menu. Set the left and right speakers to large. Click sub yes, and in the crossover part set you sub to 80 Hz.

I you sure the F3 of those mains is 70 Hz? Which Altec did you copy? Don't forget horns have huge room gain, and corners extend F3 greatly.

If I get time I will download your manual later, but everything you need is in the speaker set up menu.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

B&W state that for their larger speakers they should never be set to large.

I can see why.

I've auditioned the 800Ds twice, and their bass output is not true FULL-RANGE (probably around 38Hz @ -3dB).

 

[highfigh]

Thanks for the quick responses guys!

I designed (and measured) my boxes with an F3 around 70 Hz. My sub's x-over is set to 150 Hz (full range), and I have to admit the system sounds amazing. I have also found the best layout options for the system.

Sounds as though I could try setting my mains to large and alter the settings in the Denon. Therein lies a mystery to me. I've read the manual a million times and don't fully understand where I should set the x-over points for my mains. I understand the theory of course, having built and designed my own speakers and center channel, but what about the Denon settings? Any opinions?

Thanks again.......Lee

To expand on the Denon menu- Start the menu, press Manual Setup-->Speaker configuration-->Front Large, etc-->Return-->Scroll down to Bass Settings-->LFE+Main/LPF for LFE@80Hz-->Return-->Scroll down to Crossover Frequency-->80Hz or 60Hz--> Menu (to exit).

If you have an SPL meter, set your levels. If you have RTA software or want to adjust the distance for best response, look for Distance in Speaker Setup and set it to .1 foot resolution before making changes. It matters and it will make a big difference in the sound.

 

[TLS Guy]

I can see why.

I've auditioned the 800Ds twice, and their bass output is not true FULL-RANGE (probably around 38Hz @ -3dB).

The 800 D has an f3 of 27 Hz and to me sounds a little bass heavy. b & W agree they have corrected this on the Diamond.

I'm pretty sure you heard the 800 Ds with the wrong amplification. If the amp is current limited, they are very base shy. I know that, because the dealer set my friends Mac's auto transformers to the 8 ohm tap. That is because B & W call them 8 ohm nominal. They did not have a lick of bass. Of course they are 4 ohm and dip to 3.5 ohms, and with nasty phase angles.

I changed the tap to 4 ohm and they were transformed.

 

[InTheIndustry]

There are many ways that this discussion could get complicated. I'll try to keep my input to the point.

To keep it simple: "small" & "LARGE" in English both refer to size. But in the world of Dolby Digital(AC-3) these terms were poor choices for what Dolby was actually trying to create in homes.

Essentially, general rule of thumb is that if your speakers cannot put out more than 100db at 20hz - set them to "small".

There are several great reasons for not setting your speakers to "LARGE" as specified in Dolby's paper describing what they are doing with AC-3 and how it should all work. It seems that when AC-3 was first being implemented the original thought was (& I am paraphrasing here) "Most people have little speakers that are weak, so we can't have them playing low". What's been the typical rule of thumb as home theater has evolved, however, is that even with what the avg. consumer would consider a full-range tower speaker (which usually isn't full-range BTW, but that's for another discussion) that the speakers set to "small" is still optimal when a subwoofer(s) system is present. Are there cases where this rule can be broken... OF COURSE!.... is it the norm or even remotely common?... Absolutely NOT.

- A great benefit of setting a receiver to "small" is that it will be relieved from performing low-freq bass duties (that it would more than likely struggle at unless it can pull off the performance listed above). Your speakers (and amp) will potentially be freed up to perform louder and cleaner in the highs and mids (which, again, are the signals that Dolby & AC-3 WANTS them to have to perform) without muddying from attempting to go deep, which is what your dedicated subwoofer(s) should be doing for them.

- A drawback of "LARGE" settings is that since bass has the hardest time interacting in a room, multiple sources of low-freq in non-optimal positions can/will cause a number of EQ/wave problems.

Keep in mind that with most bass management systems the 80hz crossover point is NOT a "brick wall". It slopes in both directions. For this reason optimal performance from a speaker should be flat down to 40hz, which many speakers can do. Some can realistically hit 30hz. But it is extremely rare for a speaker to truly go down flat to 20hz and below with tangible volume.

Set to "small" the receiver passes low-freq to the sub while "LARGE" settings on a receiver do NOT filter any frequencies from the mains to the sub. Hopefully we can see where this would be a nasty problem with the wrong gear.


Dolby Labs 5.1 production guidelines (please see section 3.3).
http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/zz-_Shared_Assets/English_PDFs/Professional/L.mn.0002.5.1guide.pdf

 

[AVRat]

Which Denon are you running?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The 800 D has an f3 of 27 Hz and to me sounds a little bass heavy. b & W agree they have corrected this on the Diamond.

I'm pretty sure you heard the 800 Ds with the wrong amplification. If the amp is current limited, they are very base shy. I know that, because the dealer set my friends Mac's auto transformers to the 8 ohm tap. That is because B & W call them 8 ohm nominal. They did not have a lick of bass. Of course they are 4 ohm and dip to 3.5 ohms, and with nasty phase angles.

I changed the tap to 4 ohm and they were transformed.

I recall the first time was with a giant Classe 300WPC/8 ohm stereo amp, and the 2nd time was with a NAD M25 7ch amp (in 2.0 direct mode).

The NAD M25 has less power than the Classe, but the NAD still has a dynamic power rating of > 385 Watts into 4 ohms.

 

[Pyrrho]

Hi all!

I'm sure this as been covered but the forum is huge and I thought I'd ask a specific question about my own system.

It seems that using large main speakers is passé these days; that is, the experts always recommend setting your main speaker size to "small," regardless if you're running 15" bass drivers, so that the bass re-direction circuitry of your amp can sort things out. So the question becomes, what if you have a really good pair of Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater domestic enclosures, and you don't want to set your mains to small? Do I just throw them away and opt for some tiny little bookshelf speakers? How does everyone else handle large main speakers? As added information, I'm using a Denon receiver with a Paradigm Servo 15 sub. Thanks.

- Lee

The issue is simply this: Which speaker goes lower, your main speakers or your subwoofer? If your subwoofer goes lower, you should set your main speakers to "small", selecting an appropriate crossover frequency for them. If your main speakers go lower, then you should get rid of the subwoofer entirely, as it would be generally pointless. Or replace the subwoofer with something better.

With your speakers and subwoofer, assuming that the specifications are right, you ought to set your main speakers to "small" because your subwoofer goes lower. Otherwise, you are losing the deep bass in the main right and left channels.

Your Altec 15" woofers were made for efficiency, not extreme depth of bass. Size is not the only relevant fact. InTheIndustry is absolutely correct in saying that "small" and "large" are not ideal words for what this is all about.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The simplist thing is to just try out both options (Large vs Small) and see which one gives you the best sound.

In a 5.1 soundtrack, the 0.1 or LFE is the dedicated discrete subwoofer channel. It will get all the explosion sounds, etc.

So whether you set the front L/R to Large or Small, the LFE channel still get all that explosion & bass, etc.

I think most soundtracks will not put a lot of 20Hz sound in the front Left, Center, Right, or Surround channels anyway.

Some receivers like Denon will allow you the option of having bass from all channels sent to the subwoofer even if you set all the channels to LARGE.

So if your main speakers can do real clean tight bass (20 - 25 Hz flat), you could have bass sent to both the main 2 speakers + the 1 subwoofer ---- kind of like having THREE subwoofers.

 

[TLS Guy]

I recall the first time was with a giant Classe 300WPC/8 ohm stereo amp, and the 2nd time was with a NAD M25 7ch amp (in 2.0 direct mode).

The NAD M25 has less power than the Classe, but the NAD still has a dynamic power rating of > 385 Watts into 4 ohms.

Neither of those amps are powerful enough. Macintosh told me those speakers are the biggest power suckers they know of, which is why they use them for amp evaluation.

You need at least 400 watts minimum and current reserve besides, because of the apparent power current requirements.

However I have feeling you like a a high Q bass system.

Those 800 Ds definitely sound more "plummy" than mine.

The bass from my TLs definitely sounds lighter on its feet than the 800 Ds, but also have more deep extension.

 

[GranteedEV]

Neither of those amps are powerful enough. Macintosh told me those speakers are the biggest power suckers they know of, which is why they use them for amp evaluation.

You need at least 400 watts minimum and current reserve besides, because of the apparent power current requirements.

However I have feeling you like a a high Q bass system.

He did love the Orion bass, and the Q on that should be .500 or lower.

 

[Lee Batchelor]

Wow, lots of information! Thanks everyone. My Denon is the Model AVR-2308CI.

Sounds like I should leave things as they are. I deliberately designed the main cabinets with a higher F3, so my Servo 15 could do the grunt work. This query originated from the fact that I didn't seem to be getting a strong "punch area" response. I define punch area as the sound you here from a bass drum. I have a feeling it may be more a function of room losses vs. speaker issues. If I close my eyes, I feel like I'm in one of the vintage theaters from childhood (1960's), where you get that typical "throaty Altec growl." There is bone crushing bass when the Servo 15 kicks in, so I guess I'm winning.

Again, many thanks for all the opinions. If there's any other ideas you wish to share, I'm all ears (no pun intended). For what it's worth, I received an e-mail from the head man at Audessy a while back, and he said to set my mains to small. The bass re-direction circuitry in my amp will handle the rest.

- Lee

 

[TLS Guy]

Wow, lots of information! Thanks everyone. My Denon is the Model AVR-2308CI.

Sounds like I should leave things as they are. I deliberately designed the main cabinets with a higher F3, so my Servo 15 could do the grunt work. This query originated from the fact that I didn't seem to be getting a strong "punch area" response. I define punch area as the sound you here from a bass drum. I have a feeling it may be more a function of room losses vs. speaker issues. If I close my eyes, I feel like I'm in one of the vintage theaters from childhood (1960's), where you get that typical "throaty Altec growl." There is bone crushing bass when the Servo 15 kicks in, so I guess I'm winning.

Again, many thanks for all the opinions. If there's any other ideas you wish to share, I'm all ears (no pun intended). For what it's worth, I received an e-mail from the head man at Audessy a while back, and he said to set my mains to small. The bass re-direction circuitry in my amp will handle the rest.

- Lee

We need to know the design of your cabinets. It sounds to me far from an Altec Voice of the theater. I suspect you have really bastardized it, and to quote Basil Fawlty: - "Things are cocked up rather more than the usual".

 

[psbfan9]

Towers

to quote Basil Fawlty: - "Things are cocked up rather more than the usual".

One of the few things I have understood in this thread...