Speakers for Denon AVR-4310CI / AVR-3311CI

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el_guineo

Enthusiast
Guys -

Am about to pull the trigger on a Denon AVR-4310CI or a AVR-3311CI, but am clueless as to which speaker set to buy.

I currently have an "all in one" Harman Kardon 5.1 setup that I've had for about 4 years, at the time set be back about $1,200.00. I've been relatively happy with it.

Now I want to upgrade to a better setup, and understand that buying a HT-in-a-box isn't necessarily the way to go.

My budget is $1,000.00 for a 5.1 setup (including subwoofer).

With this amount of money, and a Denon AVR-4310CI class reciever, is there an easy "must buy", or is the answer slightly more complicated?

Some details:

- Living room is normal-sized (can't give specific measurements, as its a new apartment and am not quite sure)
- Sofa will be against back wall, so rear satellites will be at each side of the listener.
- Use is 80/20 Movies (action mostly) / Music (Rock)
- I like to watch movies at comfortably LOUD settings (theater-level, which is loud to most people!)
- Front speakers will likely be wall mounted. Center speaker likely placed on top of an entertainment console. LCD TV will be wall-mounted.

Any ideas of recommended speaker sets, brands?

Thanks!
 
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el_guineo

Enthusiast
Saw tje EMP E55TI 5.1 tower system on the Audioholics store - this looks like a package that fits the bill in terms of ease (all in one) and price, and has great reviews.

However, my setup has the entertainment center (furniture) going all across the front of the room, so free-standing tower speakers wouldn't work, hence the wall mount.
 
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el_guineo

Enthusiast
Considering the EMP Tek EW35 x 3 for Front L/R and Center -- anybody have these that can share their experience? Any better ones for the price?

Also, still looking for Surround L/R and Sub recommendations.
 
E

el_guineo

Enthusiast
Also noticed the Paradigm Cinema 110 CT 5.1 Home Theater Surround Sound System -- anybody please comment if you have and can offer your .02.
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
I think you are going overkill on the receiver and hurting yourself with the speaker budget. If you are limiting yourself to $1000 for 5 speakers and a sub, why spend $1000 on a receiver?
 
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el_guineo

Enthusiast
Thanks for the reply! Definitely a fair observation.

Considering my entire budget is $2,000 -- do you have any alternate recommednations for a receiver and/or speakers?

I've been reading up on the Paradigms and they do look nice! Maybe I can just save some $ and go with a more inexpensive receiver.

Thoughts?
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
I personally wouldn't recommend that Paradigm set...I'm trying to think of speakers suitable for wallmounting and unfortunately I'm coming up short. I would definitely recommend going with a cheaper receiver - is there any particular reason why you selected the 4310 or the 3311? The SR5005 is nice too, but I believe you should choose speakers first and the receiver second.

I'll try to remember some sealed or front ported speakers that will meet your needs and when I do I'll post them.

edit: Just thought of some speakers - the NHT Absolute Zero and Absolute Center.
http://www.nhthifi.com/Absolute-Center?sc=12&category=3774
http://www.nhthifi.com/Absolute-Zero-Black?sc=12&category=3772

For a subwoofer I'd look at elemental designs, epik, rythmik, svs, hsu, and outlaw audio, but you might want to wait until you get the apartment and find out just how large a room you need to fill with bass.
 
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el_guineo

Enthusiast
Thanks Philip!

The Absolute Center can be used L/C/R? In that case one would buy 3? I take it the bookshelf are for Surround L/R?
 
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templemaners

Senior Audioholic
Thanks Philip!

The Absolute Center can be used L/C/R? In that case one would buy 3? I take it the bookshelf are for Surround L/R?

No.

In what Phillip is describing, you would purchase one Absolute Center, and four of the Absolute Zero for your front L/R and your L/R surrounds.
 
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el_guineo

Enthusiast
Did some quick number crunching -

1. NHT - $1449 incl subwoofer
2. EMP - $1279 incl subwoofer
3. Paradigm - $1049 incl subwoofer

As far as design goes (unfortunately, "lifestyle" is a factor) I think I like #3 then #2, and lastly the NHT.

I'd welcome opinions from all users regarding these three packages so I can make a more informed decision!

Thanks!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If you are looking for towers, the Infinity P362/363 are very nice:

http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Primus-Three-way-Floorstanding-Speaker/dp/B0046A8R3M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1298515157&sr=8-1

It has excellent resolution, clarity, and imaging, and very good bass (~38Hz @ -3dB).

I highly recommend them.

Retail price/cost of speakers helps, but it does not guarantee great sounding speakers.

And thinking that $2,000 speakers will automatically sound better than these P363s is probably unwise. Sure more costly speakers will give you better aesthetics and build quality such as speaker binding posts, but if you don't care for such amenities, these P363s will do nicely for most folks.

Their on-axis and off-axis frequency responses are very linear and accurate and the in-room bass response goes down to about 38Hz @ -3dB.

Also keep an eye out for the previous model - the P362:
http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Primus-P362-Floor-Individually/dp/B000LKC372/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1298515118&sr=8-1
 
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templemaners

Senior Audioholic
Some general thoughts:

  • Phillip already mentioned it, but your receiver to speaker budget is out of whack. If your budget is around $2000, I'd probably spend $350-500 on a receiver, and the remaining balance on speakers. Speakers are a far more important part of your system than a receiver is.
  • Of that 1500 or so speaker budget, I'd look to spend about ~$600 on a subwoofer, maybe more. If you like action movies so much, I don't think you'll be happy with the sub in that Paradigm kit (looks puny).
  • Are wall mounted bookshelf speakers an option? What about bookshelfs on a stand or small towers? I think you might be unfairly limiting your speaker options by wanting the thin on-wall speakers.
  • I would view the speaker and subwoofer parts as two seperate purchases - brand matching is not necessary at all with those components. There are many good internet brands that will give you a lot for your dollar.
  • For the sub part, since you'll be moving to an apartment, it will be a good idea to find out first how well the sound insulation is, as well as the total open space in cubic feet. Knowing that will dictate how much space the sub has to pressurize (the bigger the space, the more sub you'll need), whether you'll need an isolation pad like a Gramma, and how loud you can play w/o disturbing the neighbors.
  • Would you be willing to build the system in smaller pieces? Like maybe start with the L/R, then add a sub, then a center, then the surrounds? You can get much better gear if you buy a little at a time, unless your budget is set in stone and you won't spend more down the line.
  • I would probably lean towards the NHT - they make very well measuring speakers for the price.
 
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templemaners

Senior Audioholic
If you are looking for towers, the Infinity P362/363 are very nice:

http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Primus-Three-way-Floorstanding-Speaker/dp/B0046A8R3M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1298515157&sr=8-1

It has excellent resolution, clarity, and imaging, and very good bass (~38Hz @ -3dB).

I highly recommend them.

Retail price/cost of speakers helps, but it does not guarantee great sounding speakers.

And thinking that $2,000 speakers will automatically sound better than these P363s is probably unwise. Sure more costly speakers will give you better aesthetics and build quality such as speaker binding posts, but if you don't care for such amenities, these P363s will do nicely for most folks.

Their on-axis and off-axis frequency responses are very linear and accurate and the in-room bass response goes down to about 38Hz @ -3dB.

Also keep an eye out for the previous model - the P362:
http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Primus-P362-Floor-Individually/dp/B000LKC372/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1298515118&sr=8-1
He stated in his first post his mains will likely be wall mounted. If you have a way to wall mount some P363/2's, please share :D

OP, ADTG is spot on with the Infinities - very good speakers for the price, if you are willing to go towers.
 
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el_guineo

Enthusiast
templemanners:

Agree with many of your points:

1. Will look into a more inexpensive receiver. I'm leaning towards a deal on the Marantz SR5005, which I can get for $599. It may still be slightly overkill, but it is a good brand and may serve for future upgrades.

2. That said, I'm budgeting up to $1500 for speakers. Given my space constraints, I do think I can get bookshelf speakers and place them on top of the entertainment console, instead of wall mounting more thin-ish pairs. Follow up "newbie" question - is the difference that significant between a bookshelf-type NHT vs. a seemingly larger on-wall EMP / Paradigm? If the difference is significant then obviously bookshelf is the way to go.

3. Point taken on the sub. I will purchase it separately. Have heard good things about SVT. Any other recommendations on a max-$600 budget?

4. Regarding insulation/isolation and "open space", I'll try to attach a picture of the layout of the apartment on a separate thread, I would definitely appreciate more precise opinions then. Regarding floor-to-floor isolation, I would classify it as very well insulated.

5. I'd prefer to get the system in one swoop so as to enjoy it from day 1. My preference would be to keep within the $1500 speaker budget including sub, and purchase all simultaneously.

Thanks for all of your insightful comments!
 
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el_guineo

Enthusiast
Layout attached

See layout of apartment attached -- with home theater area cirlced in red. Note that this area is contiguous to the living room area - ie, no doors separate it, at least not yet! (Maybe down the line... $$$!)


Note that the diagram is inaccurate as in that the entertainment console furniture will take up the entire length of the west wall - ie, no space for floor standing speakers.
 

Attachments

zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Did some quick number crunching -

1. NHT - $1449 incl subwoofer
2. EMP - $1279 incl subwoofer
3. Paradigm - $1049 incl subwoofer

Thanks!
You have some good choices.

Just to make it simple - The NHT is neutral, detailed and clean
sounding. It does movies and music well, and is hard to beat
at it's price.

I would also look at the Monitor Audio Radius - The 225 LCR is
good. They are open, detailed and rich sounding. I like this a
little more than the NHT.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=electronics&field-keywords=monitor+radius

I like this Yamaha receiver - I bought this to be a back-up to my Marantz
receiver. I am having a hard time putting the Marantz back up.
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V667-7-2-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B003P2V52M
 
Last edited:
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templemaners

Senior Audioholic
templemanners:

Agree with many of your points:

1. Will look into a more inexpensive receiver. I'm leaning towards a deal on the Marantz SR5005, which I can get for $599. It may still be slightly overkill, but it is a good brand and may serve for future upgrades.
That Marantz seems like a good choice for your budget.

2. That said, I'm budgeting up to $1500 for speakers. Given my space constraints, I do think I can get bookshelf speakers and place them on top of the entertainment console, instead of wall mounting more thin-ish pairs. Follow up "newbie" question - is the difference that significant between a bookshelf-type NHT vs. a seemingly larger on-wall EMP / Paradigm? If the difference is significant then obviously bookshelf is the way to go.
Do you have any pictures or links to what your entertainment console looks like? You said "on top" which leads me to believe that the console is pretty tall. Would you happen to know roughly how high the space the bookshelf would be sitting on? Using the NHT Absolute Zero as an example, I would take the height of where the speaker would be sitting and add 7-8" for the tweeter height - the Zeros are 9.75" according to the website, so eyeballing it, I'd guess the tweeter is up 7 to 8 inches from the base on the speaker.

What you are looking for is the tweeter height to be pretty close to your ear height when you are sitting down. In my place, that is around 37-38".

I don't have a good technical answer to the 2nd part of your question, but my opinion is that on wall speakers are more of an aesthetic compromise than I'd be willing to make if I could at all avoid it.

3. Point taken on the sub. I will purchase it separately. Have heard good things about SVT. Any other recommendations on a max-$600 budget?

4. Regarding insulation/isolation and "open space", I'll try to attach a picture of the layout of the apartment on a separate thread, I would definitely appreciate more precise opinions then. Regarding floor-to-floor isolation, I would classify it as very well insulated.
On #3, do you mean SVS? Max $600 I would assume includes shipping, so I think your only choice from SVS is the PB10-NSD at $499. The SB12-NSD is $599, so it'll obviously cost more than that to ship to you. I'd be wary that a 10" sub would give you the performance you want.

Judging from your floor plan attachment (BTW, my small apartment and I are officially jealous :p :D), you have a pretty big space to fill, even more so if that wall between the kitchen and dining room is not filled in.

Since you have a big space and like action movies, I would look for something ported. The HSU VTF-2 MK3 would be $608 over once shipping costs are factored in (I'm assuming you're in the continental US). The Rythmik FV12 would be just over $600 dollars as well; to ship to my state on the West Coast, I totaled out to $620. I have not heard any reviews on the FV12 though...

Elemental Designs might also have something in your price range. Epik has the Legend that would fit under your $600 threshold (I would pay $581 shipped according to their website). However, I would again say I have concerns that price range ($600) of sub will really do the job.

I'll assume a DIY isn't an option - if it is, I'm sure there's someone who can help you with some design tips if you are interested.

Buying used might also be an option, with the obvious 2nd hand risk...

For the insulation, let's assume for now that you'll be ok with the neighbors. You might still want to look at some sort of isolation pad after the fact if you find that whatever sub you purchase causes nearby objects to shake too hard. I'd wait and see on that though...

5. I'd prefer to get the system in one swoop so as to enjoy it from day 1. My preference would be to keep within the $1500 speaker budget including sub, and purchase all simultaneously.
Duly noted. My only suggestion would be to make exactly sure you know what you want will work before you buy. Sort of like an audio version of "measure twice, cut once".

Now one question for you - since you'll be set up in that little alcove, would you be interested in forgoing the surrounds and having what amounts to a 3.1 setup (L/C/R with a sub)? Since you'll have the couch right up against that wall and that door to the bedroom area so close to the couch, the surrounds would appear to be blasting you right in the ear.
 
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el_guineo

Enthusiast
Would you happen to know roughly how high the space the bookshelf would be sitting on?
Apologies for the lack of clarity - actually the entertainment is more of a low "console" type furniture... its very low profile, and will obviously be lower than the LCD screen (which will be mounted against the wall). So, if I place bookshelf speakers on top of this furniture, the tweets will be at or slightly below ear level.


On #3, do you mean SVS?
Sorry, meant SVS!

Since you have a big space and like action movies, I would look for something ported. The HSU VTF-2 MK3 would be $608 over once shipping costs are factored in (I'm assuming you're in the continental US). The Rythmik FV12 would be just over $600 dollars as well; to ship to my state on the West Coast, I totaled out to $620. I have not heard any reviews on the FV12 though...
Are ported enclosures more "boomy"? I remember from my car audio days that I preferred sealed enclosures because bass was sharper/crisper/tighter.

Having said that, do you have personal experience with the HSU? The cost is right around my budget incl. shipping!


Now one question for you - since you'll be set up in that little alcove, would you be interested in forgoing the surrounds and having what amounts to a 3.1 setup (L/C/R with a sub)? Since you'll have the couch right up against that wall and that door to the bedroom area so close to the couch, the surrounds would appear to be blasting you right in the ear.
I'd prefer to have a 5.1 setup, even if I have to manually lower the volume on the rear surrounds. There's something to be said about hearing those bullets fly right by you in Call of Duty. I guess what I'm saying is that I'd be willing to sacrifice a little audio "precision" with just plain hearing stuff to my sides/rear!

Again, thanks a million for your responses - your insights and brand recommendations are immensely helpful.

Alex
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Duly noted. My only suggestion would be to make exactly sure you know what you want will work before you buy. Sort of like an audio version of "measure twice, cut once".

Now one question for you - since you'll be set up in that little alcove, would you be interested in forgoing the surrounds and having what amounts to a 3.1 setup (L/C/R with a sub)? Since you'll have the couch right up against that wall and that door to the bedroom area so close to the couch, the surrounds would appear to be blasting you right in the ear.
There are some good on-wall speakers - however, I agree that bookshelves will perform better than
on-wall speakers. A good 3.1 system can bring lots of enjoyment - that is a tough room for surrounds.
 
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