Green Mountain Audio Europas

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Anyway, I have had enough amps come through my home to know there are sonic differences. I don't need a 10K carrot dangled in front of me. And ABX testing is just an exercise in frustration. Long term listening more accurately depicts what is going on.
So why not get the easy money?
You choose both of the amps for the challenge.
Buy a "inferior" pro amp (or whatever you consider the worst abomination among amps).
Do your long term listening to both amps.
Establish and pin-point the differences you hear between the two amps.
Find music clips which make it easy to discern these differences.
Take your chosen amps and music clips and take the challenge.

Maybe you don't care about or need the money, but think of the gift you would be giving the entire audio world if you demonstrated that there really is an audible difference between amplifiers!
 
S

Shakeydeal

Junior Audioholic
So just to make sure I understand.

You think that:

a) all amplifiers sound the same

b) all seedee players sound the same

c) all cables sound the same

d) only loudspeakers have appreciable differences

e) SS is superior to vacuum tube amplification

f) digital is superior to analog

Does that about sum it up?

Shakey
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Why dodge the question? I put my money where my mouth was and naught GMA speakers. Go win yourself $10k and help educate the audio world at the same time.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
So just to make sure I understand.

You think that:

a) all amplifiers sound the same

b) all seedee players sound the same

c) all cables sound the same

d) only loudspeakers have appreciable differences

e) SS is superior to vacuum tube amplification

f) digital is superior to analog

Does that about sum it up?

Shakey
I don't know about seedee players, but I think all CD players that are at least $50 sound the same.:D

I think Digital is usually similar to Analog in performance.

I think SS is usually similar to Tube in performance.

I think all cables, amps, & preamps (DIRECT mode) sound the same.

I think the biggest difference is the loudspeaker.

Great loudspeakers will sound great in most rooms, even without room treatments.
 
S

Shakeydeal

Junior Audioholic
don't know about seedee players, but I think all CD players that are at least $50 sound the same.

I think Digital is usually similar to Analog in performance.

I think SS is usually similar to Tube in performance.

I think all cables, amps, & preamps (DIRECT mode) sound the same.

I think the biggest difference is the loudspeaker.

Great loudspeakers will sound great in most rooms, even without room treatments.
I think digital has gotten to the point where it can sound really good. I listen to it about 40-50% of the time. But if I put a record on at any point during a listening session, it's all over. I can't play another seedee that night.

Cables do have real differences and do NOT sound the same. Sorry, but that's the way it is. I think most people who disagree either don't seriously listen to music as a singular event (i.e. reading, background music, cleaning the house, talking on the phone, etc.) or don't have a system that can resolve the differences.

I think great loudspeakers can sound great in a room that can support that greatness. Otherwise they can sound anywhere from mediocre to good. Don't fool yourself, the room is about 70% of the sound. Get that part wrong and it doesn't matter what gear you have.


And Jerry, I don't mean to dodge the question. I just don't feel the need to prove anything. I can sit here and tell you what I think, the same as you guys can share your objective slant. It's all good. I don't expect to change your mind either.

Shakey
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
So just to make sure I understand.

You think that:

a) all amplifiers sound the same

b) all seedee players sound the same

c) all cables sound the same

d) only loudspeakers have appreciable differences

e) SS is superior to vacuum tube amplification

f) digital is superior to analog

Does that about sum it up?

Shakey
As Robert Clark says, it is impossible to prove there is no audible difference between amps (when driven within their performance limits, etc.) just as it is impossible to prove that Big Foot doesn't exist.

I would love to discover I could audibly improve the quality of of my system by buying a different amp.

Why do I believe there is no audible difference between amps?
Because, invariably, people who argue there is a difference change the subject or disappear (or fail) when given the chance to prove their convictions.

Like I said you could :)benefit the entire audio community:) as well as getting an easy ten grand by demonstrating that your "truth" is reality!
Instead, you redirect the conversation.:(

What would you expect me or anyone else reading this thread to conclude?
 
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S

Shakeydeal

Junior Audioholic
Well KEW, I don't know anything about the equipment that makes up your system. Why don't you enlighten me?

And for all you people who claim everything sounds the same, I guess there is NO improving the quality of your system, unless you buy new speakers. That is truly a shame. I have a pair of 30 yr old Polk Audio speakers upstairs that I can make sound 150% better just by bringing them downstairs where the good s&*t is. I could also take my good speakers upstairs and plop them down with a Yamaha receiver, zip cord, and cheap Sony DVD player and make them sound very much like the Polks do up there.

Remember, it all starts at the front end. Screw that up and it's all over........

Shakey
 
S

Shakeydeal

Junior Audioholic
ABX testing is a slippery slope. It is stressful and hardly ever meaningful. As I mentioned in a previous post, long term listening is the best qualifier to determine what component is the best fit for you and your system. This type of listening doesn't conform to Mr. Clark's rules. You can and probably will poo poo this as a cop out. I have no problem with that, as I have nothing to prove to anyone. I use my system as a means of enjoyment, not a tool to be measured or measure with.

Shakey
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
ABX testing is a slippery slope. It is stressful and hardly ever meaningful. As I mentioned in a previous post, long term listening is the best qualifier to determine what component is the best fit for you and your system. This type of listening doesn't conform to Mr. Clark's rules. You can and probably will poo poo this as a cop out. I have no problem with that, as I have nothing to prove to anyone. I use my system as a means of enjoyment, not a tool to be measured or measure with.

Shakey
So when you move your polls from upstairs to downstairs, how many hours of listening does it usually take to notice this 150% improvement?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
ABX testing is a slippery slope. It is stressful and hardly ever meaningful. As I mentioned in a previous post, long term listening is the best qualifier to determine what component is the best fit for you and your system. This type of listening doesn't conform to Mr. Clark's rules. You can and probably will poo poo this as a cop out. I have no problem with that, as I have nothing to prove to anyone. I use my system as a means of enjoyment, not a tool to be measured or measure with.

Shakey
I can understand that long term listening is beneficial, but Mr Clark doesn't say you can't do all of the long term listening you like beforehand. He is simply asking that you not do it on his time (he does allow a few hours).
So, through long term listening you cannot repeatably identify the differences or find a passage in the music to highlight them?
Just how nebulous are these differences?
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
a) all amplifiers sound the same
All good amplifiers driving a load within their capacity and within their limits do not affect the sound, at least not to ANY perceivable or audible level. As soon as you throw too much voltage or current into the mix, amplifiers can sound very different. However there of course exist many a poor amplifier. Upstairs I've got an old sony receiver that can not properly damp otherwise easy to drive 8 ohm speakers and thus sounds muddy and unresolving. It also has a very poor signal to noise ratio which may further take away detail.

b) all seedee players sound the same
Assuming the CD Player has a digital output, all CD players' digital outputs will sound the same. The digital to analog converter however can sound very different.

c) all cables sound the same
Unless they're specifically designed to color the sound, all ordinary cables have zero effect on the sound. There do exist "audiophile" cables with specific properties which exist to "mask the highs" for example. This is essentially using a cable as EQ and no different from "turning the treble down".

d) only loudspeakers have appreciable differences
Assuming the other electronics are at the very least decent, loudspeakers, record players, digital to analogue converters, and rooms are the four components most capable of having an audible effect on sound quality. The fact is that the distortion introduced by a loudspeaker and its room interaction is FAR greater than the distortion introduced by any other well-functioning aspect of a system.

What I'd look for in each component is

Blu-Ray player - Ideally I'd like a conversion of TrueHD/DTS Master to LPCM in order to lessen the load on the processor, but that's literally pointless and only has to do with the fact that older processors don't like the newer codecs (My SR6003 for example can't do Audessey and DTS Master at the same time, but can do LPCM and AUdessey at the same time)
CD Player - Digital PCM output, no playback skipping
Processor DAC - Conversion of TrueHD/DTS Master/PCM to analogue with high resolution and transparency. Also like quality room correction and parametric EQ abilities to have the ability to deal with more extreme room issues. Quality speaker setup is a MUST.
Processor Pre-amp - No intentional colorations, tons of dynamic headroom, high channel separation, extremely low noise. Preferably fully balanced output.
Interconnect Cable - not much, but i'd prefer a balanced (XLR) connection
Amplifier - high channel separation, gain structure where noise is low in conjunction with pre-amp, lots of damping and control over transients, ultra-high current capability for extreme impedance swings/dips, high voltage capability with under .05% THD for lots of dynamic headroom, good power efficiency, flat frequency response +/- .5db from 10hz to 25000hz (this should be a given but isn't because of dumb audiophiles), preferably fully differential.
Speaker Cable - sufficient wire guage for distance for minimal signal loss, flexible, and fits well into a binding post.
Loudspeaker - this is far more complex and would take an essay to explain because loudspeakers simply introduce the most distortion, plain and simple. As a general rule, if a speaker does not even measure relatively flat on axis in frequency response in a good measurement location (ideally an anechoic chamber but also outside), then it's simply too poor a speaker to even bother auditioning, as it introduces too much coloration to ever sound right without EQ. Some dumb audiophiles try to EQ their speakers with specific cables and amplifiers which intentionally introduce their own colorations. These dumb audiophiles think that by mixing the right components they can get the right "synergy". These same people wouldn't touch a GEQ or PEQ if their lives depened on it, even though that is a far more effective route in controlling a poorly measuring speaker. Frequency response isn't the only important measurement out there. Group Delay, Cabinet measurements, polar response, etc are all important in their own ways. This brings us to this thread: Jerry probably bought the europas to determine for himself how important the measurable concept of absolute time coherency is. Obviously most speakers have some level of time coherency, but the claims of the Green Mountains is that they're absolutely time coherent. Obviously the other measurements still indicate a lot about the speaker's performance.
Room Interaction - Some loudspeakers are less dependant on room interaction than others.. this is all about control over directivity from my understanding. The final goal should be an ambient effect where the room is neither too absorbing nor too reflecting.

e) SS is superior to vacuum tube amplification
It requires exponentially less maintenance and dollar for dollar generally has far more true unclipped output capability. Solid state tends to be less sensitive to the electro-mechanical characteristics of the accompanying speaker. A high power tube may be 60w into 8 ohms. This IMO is not enough headroom for reference level listening unless you've got like 95db sensitive 8 ohm speakers. The sound of a tube will also change over time, at which point a tube is not considered to function properly as an amplfier.

f) digital is superior to analog
Yes. an SACD for example will have more information than even the finest vinyl. HOWEVER more good vinyl come from a time and circle where mastering was arguably much better, so a well mastered record will certainly sound better than a poorly or averagely mastered CD. Digital as it is right now just has more resolution ability and is less prone to time-erosion.

The caveat to this is that the music we hear is always going to be analogue. Therefore we must still have a quality digital to analog conversion somewhere in the system for the capabilities of digital to be realized. A single DAC is preferable to cascading DACs/ADCs because all DACS, like record styli, are a necessary evil.
 
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Shakeydeal

Junior Audioholic
KEW,

Tongue was firmly in cheek with that reply. If I said it was instantly recognizable, then I set myself up for a myriad of ABX questions. Yes, it's a big difference. Sounds like completely different speakers. I admit that when comparing two high quality amplifiers, it is more difficult to discern. But I have tried amplifiers that didn't cut it right out of the box, and others that it took more time to discern the negative aspects. I will have to rely on that ole standby - "it all depends".

Assuming the CD Player has a digital output, all CD players' digital outputs will sound the same. The digital to analog converter however can sound very different
.

Grant,

That's funny because a digital out will mean absolutely nothing w/o a d/a converter somewhere in the chain. All cd players perform digital to analog conversion, or it's just a transport. So cd players do NOT sound alike.

I don't consider 60 watts to be high power with tubes or SS. But then again, a lot depends on the speaker you are trying to drive. My GMA Continuum 3 HDs absolutely love the 150 tube watts of my VTL amplifier. Match made in....well, you know where.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
That's funny because a digital out will mean absolutely nothing w/o a d/a converter somewhere in the chain. All cd players perform digital to analog conversion, or it's just a transport. So cd players do NOT sound alike.
A CD player which is just a transport is the best way to go, as it's cheapest and performance will be consistent independant of the CD player. All digital transports DO sound the same. That's what I was saying. I can spend like 50 bucks on a CD player with optical out and probably have better performance than some audiophile's $4000 "Analogue CD Player" if my processor has a quality DAC, and the good ones IE Marantz/Denon/Emotiva do. Not to mention I'm avoiding the (probably minute and inaudible mind you) inherent distortion introduced by cascading analog input/outs. Not to mention that unbalanced analogue connections are very prone to ground loops from my experience.


I don't consider 60 watts to be high power with tubes or SS. But then again, a lot depends on the speaker you are trying to drive. My GMA Continuum 3 HDs absolutely love the 150 tube watts of my VTL amplifier. Match made in....well, you know where.
Which probably cost you more than a pair of Emotiva XPA-1s and performs worse :eek:

For starters, the VTL ST-150 (i'm assuming this is your amp?) doesn't even double up on power into a lower impedance load NOT EVEN close! It goes from 140w into 8 ohms to 175 watts into 4 ohms... that's going to sound poorly balanced at higher volumes with any speaker that dips into the 4 ohm range, of which most 6 ohm speakers do and some 8 ohm speakers including offerings from brands like B&W and Paradigm. At low volumes it may be fine but the dynamics would be compromised.

Second it's got an output impedance of 1.65 Ohms! This is an awful number.. the bass will not be tight/dry at all! I would not touch an amplifier with this sort of output impedance.... i don't like muddy, loose bass as it's extremely unrealistic (not to mention that bass overhang makes my ears hurt) and the goal of hi fi is realism. Ugh, just thinking about it reminds me that I need to buy my mom a new computer subwoofer... her logitech garbage with like a 4" woofer is abysmal and she listens so loud too.
 
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Shakeydeal

Junior Audioholic
Funny. You have no idea how good this VTL amp sounds. I have only owned two tube amps that I did not like, Sonic Frontiers and VAC. The rest I liked to varying degrees.

This ain't my first rodeo. I know what good bass sounds like. And the C3s have it in spades. Yes, even with my lowly tube amplifier. Hard to believe, but true.

Listen, I understand this site is more dedicated to mid fi and home theater. Whole different ball game than what I'm used to. So you guys can get back to your Paradigm, Denon, Yamaha discussions now. I won't pursue any further banter.

But I would like to get the thread back on topic about the Europas. That is why we were all here to begin with.

Shakey
 
T

tom67

Full Audioholic
All good amplifiers driving a load within their capacity and within their limits do not affect the sound, at least not to ANY perceivable or audible level. As soon as you throw too much voltage or current into the mix, amplifiers can sound very different. However there of course exist many a poor amplifier. Upstairs I've got an old sony receiver that can not properly damp otherwise easy to drive 8 ohm speakers and thus sounds muddy and unresolving. It also has a very poor signal to noise ratio which may further take away detail.



Assuming the CD Player has a digital output, all CD players' digital outputs will sound the same. The digital to analog converter however can sound very different.



Unless they're specifically designed to color the sound, all ordinary cables have zero effect on the sound. There do exist "audiophile" cables with specific properties which exist to "mask the highs" for example. This is essentially using a cable as EQ and no different from "turning the treble down".



Assuming the other electronics are at the very least decent, loudspeakers, record players, digital to analogue converters, and rooms are the four components most capable of having an audible effect on sound quality. The fact is that the distortion introduced by a loudspeaker and its room interaction is FAR greater than the distortion introduced by any other well-functioning aspect of a system.

What I'd look for in each component is

Blu-Ray player - Ideally I'd like a conversion of TrueHD/DTS Master to LPCM in order to lessen the load on the processor, but that's literally pointless and only has to do with the fact that older processors don't like the newer codecs (My SR6003 for example can't do Audessey and DTS Master at the same time, but can do LPCM and AUdessey at the same time)
CD Player - Digital PCM output, no playback skipping
Processor DAC - Conversion of TrueHD/DTS Master/PCM to analogue with high resolution and transparency. Also like quality room correction and parametric EQ abilities to have the ability to deal with more extreme room issues. Quality speaker setup is a MUST.
Processor Pre-amp - No intentional colorations, tons of dynamic headroom, high channel separation, extremely low noise. Preferably fully balanced output.
Interconnect Cable - not much, but i'd prefer a balanced (XLR) connection
Amplifier - high channel separation, gain structure where noise is low in conjunction with pre-amp, lots of damping and control over transients, ultra-high current capability for extreme impedance swings/dips, high voltage capability with under .05% THD for lots of dynamic headroom, good power efficiency, flat frequency response +/- .5db from 10hz to 25000hz (this should be a given but isn't because of dumb audiophiles), preferably fully differential.
Speaker Cable - sufficient wire guage for distance for minimal signal loss, flexible, and fits well into a binding post.
Loudspeaker - this is far more complex and would take an essay to explain because loudspeakers simply introduce the most distortion, plain and simple. As a general rule, if a speaker does not even measure relatively flat on axis in frequency response in a good measurement location (ideally an anechoic chamber but also outside), then it's simply too poor a speaker to even bother auditioning, as it introduces too much coloration to ever sound right without EQ. Some dumb audiophiles try to EQ their speakers with specific cables and amplifiers which intentionally introduce their own colorations. These dumb audiophiles think that by mixing the right components they can get the right "synergy". These same people wouldn't touch a GEQ or PEQ if their lives depened on it, even though that is a far more effective route in controlling a poorly measuring speaker. Frequency response isn't the only important measurement out there. Group Delay, Cabinet measurements, polar response, etc are all important in their own ways. This brings us to this thread: Jerry probably bought the europas to determine for himself how important the measurable concept of absolute time coherency is. Obviously most speakers have some level of time coherency, but the claims of the Green Mountains is that they're absolutely time coherent. Obviously the other measurements still indicate a lot about the speaker's performance.
Room Interaction - Some loudspeakers are less dependant on room interaction than others.. this is all about control over directivity from my understanding. The final goal should be an ambient effect where the room is neither too absorbing nor too reflecting.



It requires exponentially less maintenance and dollar for dollar generally has far more true unclipped output capability. Solid state tends to be less sensitive to the electro-mechanical characteristics of the accompanying speaker. A high power tube may be 60w into 8 ohms. This IMO is not enough headroom for reference level listening unless you've got like 95db sensitive 8 ohm speakers. The sound of a tube will also change over time, at which point a tube is not considered to function properly as an amplfier.



Yes. an SACD for example will have more information than even the finest vinyl. HOWEVER more good vinyl come from a time and circle where mastering was arguably much better, so a well mastered record will certainly sound better than a poorly or averagely mastered CD. Digital as it is right now just has more resolution ability and is less prone to time-erosion.

The caveat to this is that the music we hear is always going to be analogue. Therefore we must still have a quality digital to analog conversion somewhere in the system for the capabilities of digital to be realized. A single DAC is preferable to cascading DACs/ADCs because all DACS, like record styli, are a necessary evil.
Always confused by cable discussions....the ones most concerned with cable quality to speakers apparently never look inside their amps at the the wiring which, in most cases looks like about $10 worth of 1960s wiring inside a $10 radio....obviously the ultimate output cant be better than the weakest link....just one reason why I dont believe in running video through a receiver...
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
Listen, I understand this site is more dedicated to mid fi and home theater. Whole different ball game than what I'm used to. So you guys can get back to your Paradigm, Denon, Yamaha discussions now. I won't pursue any further banter.

But I would like to get the thread back on topic about the Europas. That is why we were all here to begin with.

Shakey
Accurate, clean sound = mid-fi? News to me.
 

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