Sound quality streaming lossess audio vs. original CD

P

PSU80

Junior Audioholic
I ripped my CD collection to itunes using Apple's lossless codec and am thinking about buying a new Apple TV ($99) to stream music to my receiver. I currently use a Denon 2910 to play CDs and output analog to my Yamaha RX-V2400 receiver. The Apple TV would have to connect with tos-link.

Do you think there would be a sound quality difference between the two approaches? How do the DACs in the Denon compare to the Yamaha? I'm assuming that would be a factor since the lossless copy should be identical to the original.

Anything else to consider?
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
How do the DACs in the Denon compare to the Yamaha? I'm assuming that would be a factor since the lossless copy should be identical to the original.
Most likely the DACs are comparable and that would be the only factor between the different approaches as the lossless version will be identical to the bits read off the CD.

The DAC is the last link in the chain but I wouldn't get too hung up on it as DACs from Burr-Brown, Wolfson, or Cirrus Logic are all pretty comparable, at least in the sense that it will be near impossible to detect any audible difference between them.
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
Depending on what you use to rip, you might not get bit perfect rips. I'm not a mac user so I dunno for sure, but I think XLD is the preferred ripping program. EAC if you're on a windows machine. Dunno about gnu/linux D:
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
Explain?

If you have EAC properly configured and do secure rips using test & copy, you'll get perfect rips. What's untrue about that?
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
Explain?

If you have EAC properly configured and do secure rips using test & copy, you'll get perfect rips. What's untrue about that?
The point is you will get perfect rips with just about any program that can peform digital audio extraction, yet EAC has a weird cult following that believes it is the only viable solution.

A CD does not have a table of contents like a CD-ROM (data cd). A block of data is 588 samples = 1/75 of a second of audio data and the laser can only be positioned within +/- 1/75 second. In other words, sometimes you get the actual block, sometimes you get the prior block, and sometimes you get the following block.

EAC was written in the nineties to address a particular problem that no longer exists and hasn't for over a decade. That problem is that early cd drives were inaccurate and would often be way off. It maintains a list of offsets for certain drives (most of which by now no longer exist) and applies that offset when it rips. So if it is known (by empirical testing) that a given drive is always off by say 3 blocks, it adjusts the position by 3 blocks. Modern drives are accurate and while they may not be able to address the exact block at a given hh:mm:ss:ff (frame) position, it will always return the exact same block. If it is really off by 1/75 second, it will be off by the same 1/75 second each and every time. No human being on earth can hear a slice of audio that is 1/75 second in duration, so why even get all worked up about it?

A 'secure' rip is nothing more than reading the same blocks over and over and taking the block that occurs the most number of times as the 'correct' block. IOW, if the drive returns the block just before the desired one 8 times, but returns the one following the target block 9 times, it will take the one that was read 9 times as the 'correct' one. It's a huge waste of time given that you can't hear the difference anyway.

A long time ago I did extensive testing with EAC and my weapon of choice - SoundForge. In every single instance, the rips from EAC and SoundForge were identical. Rip using both, invert one waveform and paste it into the other - the result is all zeros, meaning they are identical.

Now is either rip really, truly identical to the studio master? There is no possible way to tell. You'd need to have a file with the raw bits (pcm samples) to compare with the rip from the CD. Even if you had a so-called studio master CD, you still can't tell because if you use the same drive to rip the master as you do to rip the copy, the result will be identical.

EAC hasn't been updated in well over a decade, it has never been promoted to even a '1.0' version number (it's still beta), and the problem it supposedly solves no longer exists. Use it if you like the interface and the fact that it is free, but don't be deluded into thinking you're getting bit perfect rips and nothing else can do the same.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
i would be more worried about the algorithm being used rather then the program. most programs use third party DLL's to encode files anyways. my personal favorite program to use is DMC music converter by Illustrate. mainly because it has pretty much every codec under the sun and is able to use multiple CPU's making it terribly fast at encoding. if i were you i would use Microsoft's lossless codec WMA lossless. out of all of the lossless compression codecs i have used it seems to have the best compression ratio. it cannot be used with an apple TV though. however if your running a ps3 and have windows media player it works fine.
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
I never said EAC was the only program to get perfect rips - it's just my (and plenty of others' preferred program). I'm sure dbpoweramp and others can give you the same quality.

EAC was updated in january of 2008, which is not all that long ago. Simply because it's still in beta doesn't make it unworthy of using.

I have come across rips that had artifacts or CRC errors...so obviously imperfect copies are possible to end up with, regardless of what program you are using. I like that EAC gives you a ripping log that shows the crc verification or errors. I haven't used another ripping utility that gives you ripping logs of similar detail if they even give you logs at all.
 
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