Ares

Ares

Audioholic Samurai
Play a CD and go pure direct mode in teh Denon by passing all of the DSP crap just to see what your out puts is. (don't know what its called on the Denon). Also, how far away where you from the speakers when you took the reading? What kind of meter are you using and how do you have it configured? Sorry for all of the questions but we need more info.
Okay I went and did it again in Pure mode played the cd again and this is what I got 78dB. Listening position is seven feet away, Model 33-4050 , C Weighting , dial turned to 80dB and response is set to slow. Before I forget the SPL meter is mounted on a tri-pod.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I took a reading and this is what I got at +0dB with music playing 75dB, compared to what you get AcuDef at -20 something is way wrong here.
Yeah, @ -20dB volume, I get about 85-90dB reading on my Galaxy digital SPL meter (which reads in 0.5dB) for 2.0 music.

For 5.1 movies, @ -20dB volume, I get about 85-105dB reading on my meter.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Okay I went and did it again in Pure mode played the cd again and this is what I got 78dB. Listening position is seven feet away, Model 33-4050 , C Weighting , dial turned to 80dB and response is set to slow. Before I forget the SPL meter is mounted on a tri-pod.
@ 0dB volume level, you only get 78dBC @ > 2 meters away.

Something is wrong with your amp.

Do you have another receiver you can test?
 
Ares

Ares

Audioholic Samurai
I have a little HTIB in the bedroom that I could read and let you guy's know what I get.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Okay I went and did it again in Pure mode played the cd again and this is what I got 78dB. Listening position is seven feet away, Model 33-4050 , C Weighting , dial turned to 80dB and response is set to slow. Before I forget the SPL meter is mounted on a tri-pod.
Just elimninating all the possibilities no matter how dumb they may appear.

On my Yamaha, there is a max volume setting that I can adjust so it will never go beyond that point no matter how many times I crank the volume dial. Check your volume setting (if you have one.) to see what the default volume settings are set to. There should be one for min and max. Also, check your wiring for good solid connections to the speakers.
 
Ares

Ares

Audioholic Samurai
@ 0dB volume level, you only get 78dBC @ > 2 meters away.

Something is wrong with your amp.

Do you have another receiver you can test?
This isn't making any sense at all, I repeated everything I did with the Denon same CD and the same distance and I got 85dBs at volume 10 :eek:
 
Ares

Ares

Audioholic Samurai
Just elimninating all the possibilities no matter how dumb they may appear.

On my Yamaha, there is a max volume setting that I can adjust so it will never go beyond that point no matter how many times I crank the volume dial. Check your volume setting (if you have one.) to see what the default volume settings are set to. There should be one for min and max. Also, check your wiring for good solid connections to the speakers.
I have the volume set to +0dB as the max and when the receiver turns on it's set to -50dB I will go through all of my connections to make sure everything is in order.

Nothing is loose the Banana Plugs are firmly in place so I'm at a loss here.
 
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D

dem beats

Senior Audioholic
I had a really similar problem with an integra receiver, and it would go into protect durring really really intense moments in a movie. It turns out a cat must have bit the wire or something else punctured it.

If you have a DMM, check all the wires, then check all the speakers.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
This isn't making any sense at all, I repeated everything I did with the Denon same CD and the same distance and I got 85dBs at volume 10 :eek:
Its making sense to me.

Your main speakers have two 5.25" drivers in each of your towers.
Sensitivity is quoted at 90 db 2.83 volts 1 meter. The nominal impedance is 8 ohm, however they are 2.5 ways with a stated minimum impedance of 4 ohms, so they are in effect 4 ohm speakers. You can go to the bank with that. The other thing that gives it away is the way the sensitivity is specked. On a 1 watt I meter rating they would be 3db less sensitive, below 500 Hz anyway.

Now your receiver is rated 90 watts into 8 ohms. Four ohm rating is not specified. However if it is typical of receivers of that class it will deliver 45 watts per channel into those speakers at most. Then don't forget at least half of that power is lost in the crossovers, and probably more.

The maximum peak power those small drivers can handle is 150 watts. So if you were to buy a power unit that can provide 150 watts into a four ohm load you would increase your peak power readings by 4.5 to 5 db in your current room at your listening position.

I don't know the volume of your room but I can tell it is not small.

I think people expect too much spl from small diameter drivers powered by receivers below $1000 in the 90 to 100 watt class in any decent sized room.

I just measured my spl to give you a comparison.

I just played an organ SACD via the analog inputs of my pre pro.

At -5 db it was impressive but clean and did not sound overly loud, but it was. You have to be careful with this rig because it does not sound stressed at high spl. It sounded as if you were right in front of the organ pipes. Peaks were 95 to 96 db. The soft passages around 50 db average. At -10 db is was peaking around 90 db and still too loud. It was above the level in a listening position in the cathedral.

At -18 db it was peaking around 75 db probably a little low. That disc sounded optimal at -14 db.

Next a CD of the Russlan and Ludmilla overture. I obtained pretty much the same results, although peaks were around 96 db at -5 setting. Full concert volume was probably around -14 db , but I usually play at around -18db.

Now my mains have two 10" drivers and two 7.5 inch drivers in each main. each main is powered by 450 watts. The two ten inch drivers are fed from active crossovers, so the power is actually equivalent to 600 watts of power if the crossovers were all passive. In any event I have at least 10 times more power available to my mains than you. The sensitivity is pretty much identical to your speakers although the bass section is about 6 db more sensitive.

So this should put it in perspective.

First always put quality and accuracy before spl. If you want to achieve, and really feel you need to achieve 90 db plus listening levels, then your upgraditis will have to extend to amps and speakers.

And as I stated previously you can not expect whole house audio from one set of speakers. That is not practical.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
This isn't making any sense at all, I repeated everything I did with the Denon same CD and the same distance and I got 85dBs at volume 10 :eek:
@ Volume of +10dB????:eek::eek:

At first I'm thinking you might have one of those NIGHT mode on, but PURE DIRECT should have shut down all EQs.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Its making sense to me.

Your main speakers have two 5.25" drivers in each of your towers.
Sensitivity is quoted at 90 db 2.83 volts 1 meter. The nominal impedance is 8 ohm, however they are 2.5 ways with a stated minimum impedance of 4 ohms, so they are in effect 4 ohm speakers. You can go to the bank with that. The other thing that gives it away is the way the sensitivity is specked. On a 1 watt I meter rating they would be 3db less sensitive, below 500 Hz anyway.

Now your receiver is rated 90 watts into 8 ohms. Four ohm rating is not specified. However if it is typical of receivers of that class it will deliver 45 watts per channel into those speakers at most. Then don't forget at least half of that power is lost in the crossovers, and probably more.

The maximum peak power those small drivers can handle is 150 watts. So if you were to buy a power unit that can provide 150 watts into a four ohm load you would increase your peak power readings by 4.5 to 5 db in your current room at your listening position.

I don't know the volume of your room but I can tell it is not small.

I think people expect too much spl from small diameter drivers powered by receivers below $1000 in the 90 to 100 watt class in any decent sized room.

I just measured my spl to give you a comparison.

I just played an organ SACD via the analog inputs of my pre pro.

At -5 db it was impressive but clean and did not sound overly loud, but it was. You have to be careful with this rig because it does not sound stressed at high spl. It sounded as if you were right in front of the organ pipes. Peaks were 95 to 96 db. The soft passages around 50 db average. At -10 db is was peaking around 90 db and still too loud. It was above the level in a listening position in the cathedral.

At -18 db it was peaking around 75 db probably a little low. That disc sounded optimal at -14 db.

Next a CD of the Russlan and Ludmilla overture. I obtained pretty much the same results, although peaks were around 96 db at -5 setting. Full concert volume was probably around -14 db , but I usually play at around -18db.

Now my mains have two 10" drivers and two 7.5 inch drivers in each main. each main is powered by 450 watts. The two ten inch drivers are fed from active crossovers, so the power is actually equivalent to 600 watts of power if the crossovers were all passive. In any event I have at least 10 times more power available to my mains than you. The sensitivity is pretty much identical to your speakers although the bass section is about 6 db more sensitive.

So this should put it in perspective.

First always put quality and accuracy before spl. If you want to achieve, and really feel you need to achieve 90 db plus listening levels, then your upgraditis will have to extend to amps and speakers.

And as I stated previously you can not expect whole house audio from one set of speakers. That is not practical.
Its not making much sense to me. I have the exact same towers as Ares and my RX-V1800 can easily push those in to the mid 90s..easily.. without clipping.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
At one point I was driving my BP7000SC, which goes down to 2.9 ohms (Home Theater Mag measurement), with a Harman Kardon 50WPC receiver!

And my CLR3000 goes down to 2.1 ohms.

And my volume was never more than -20dB.

My gut tells me it's not the power.

I say hook that other reciever to those PSBs and see what you get.

One other thing is to look in the manual for a way to RESET your receiver to the FACTORY setting.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Its not making much sense to me. I have the exact same towers as Ares and my RX-V1800 can easily push those in to the mid 90s..easily.. without clipping.
My gut tells me that if Ares RESETS his Denon AVR and nothing improves, plus tries out the second receiver and get improvement, then something is wrong with his Denon AVR.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
My gut tells me that if Ares RESETS his Denon AVR and nothing improves, plus tries out the second receiver and get improvement, then something is wrong with his Denon AVR.
either that or there is high resistance short in his wires
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
either that or there is high resistance short in his wires
You mean inside his PSB speakers?

Because if he tries out the second receiver with the same speaker wires and gets improvement, then it's not the speaker wires.
 
Ares

Ares

Audioholic Samurai
Sorry about not getting back to you guys sooner, I took the HTIB recevier from the bedroom and tried it with the PSB's, there was a difference I took a reading and it came in at 90dB's @ volume 10 and this was with the same speaker wire that was hooked up to the Denon. So I reset the Denon and nothing changed it's still not delivering the way it should so it looks like the issue is with the Denon.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Its not making much sense to me. I have the exact same towers as Ares and my RX-V1800 can easily push those in to the mid 90s..easily.. without clipping.
May be you have a smaller room.
 
Ares

Ares

Audioholic Samurai
TLS Guy I don't know the size of 3db's room but this size of mine goes like this, L:14' W:7'.2" at the front and the back and 6'.1" in the middle H:9'
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
TLS Guy I don't know the size of 3db's room but this size of mine goes like this, L:14' W:7'.2" at the front and the back and 6'.1" in the middle H:9'
So it is a fair sized room. The other factors affecting spl are room furnishings and type of carpet and wall coverings and any curtains. The other issue is openings that can not be closed. Rooms are a huge variable in lots of ways, not least in the acoustic energy required to produce a given spl.

Your space as described is a a little smaller than mine, which is 22' X 12' with 8' ceilings and some leakage into the electrical chase. Carpet is wool.

I can tell you to get the peaks in 95 to 96 db range, I was pushing my power war chest hard.

The next variable is the amp speaker interface. While a lot of receivers in your price range do not blow up with four ohm loads, they really curtail output as a rule. Your speakers are well diffraction compensated, and because of that will try and draw increasing amounts of current below 600 Hz. In my experience receivers in your class just drop their voltage and as well as reducing power as a consequence of reduced voltage become rough and go into clipping.

For receivers in your price class with specs only quoted into an 8 ohm resistive load, they actually usually deliver less than half their rated power, sometimes as little as a third when driving properly designed loudspeakers.

What sorts amps out is their ability to maintain voltage in the face of falling impedance. This way they are able to provide the current required.

I think it is well known that I'm not a receiver fan, but I see their attraction and utility. I have never owned one and hope I never have to.

However putting complex processing pre amps and a tuner with multiple amps in a box can not be done well at a low price. Things just don't work that way.

I seriously doubt there is an actual fault in your receiver, and feel far more likely than not it is working within its design parameters.
 
Ares

Ares

Audioholic Samurai
I understood most of what was stated had to look a few things up to make sure I understood the weight of your point, so in essence there is nothing wrong with receiver, it just has limitations correct? So stepping up from a $500 receiver to a $1500-$2000 receiver would offer the improvement I seek correct?
 
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