Dual subs of different brands, plus a special problem with one of them

[supervij]

For several years, I've been using an Athena sub, the AS-P400. It's served me well enough, although the bass sometimes seemed a little bloated at times, possibly due to the untreated living room in which it resides. It's had one major problem -- there's a high-pitched "crunchy" sound coming from the sub whenever it was asked to reproduce sounds of extremely low frequency – those tiny explosions at the very start of Serenity; the finger tapping on the aquarium in Finding Nemo, pretty much all of Hot Fuzz. Other people don’t seem to notice it, but it’s been driving me a little nuts. Athena once told me that it’s a voice coil or something being slowly destroyed because I had the sub level much too high. (It’s level flat with my mains.)

Opportunity knocked recently, and I've replaced that Athena sub with a used SVS sub, the PB10. The previous problems with the Athena are gone, and all those movies that were slowly killing it are now playable again (not to mention hugely enjoyable again!).

Thinking that due to the problems of the Athena sub, I wouldn’t be able to get much for it were I to sell it. So I figured I could still use it, possibly in tandem with the SVS. Of course, there are two potential problems with that:

1. According to Gene's article from last year, "Are two subs better than one??? The answer to this question is typically yes, assuming you’re comparing one vs. two subs of the exact same brand and model #." My two subs are from different brands, obviously. But does it really matter when we’re talking about low frequencies? Theoretically, will it really sound odd to use two subs from two different brands? They’re both 10” woofers, and they go down to roughly the same spot (20 Hz for SVS, 23 Hz for Athena). I've read some very positive reviews of the Athena, which leads me to think that it's considered a pretty good sub. Is there any reason they wouldn’t work well together?

2. The voice coil (or whatever it is) in the Athena sub -- will this continue to be a problem if used in tandem with the SVS? My gut says that it will, although maybe I wouldn’t notice it all that much, since the sub level for each will be reduced. Is it worth further damaging the Athena by continuing to use it, albeit at reduced levels for tandem use?

Of course, I can easily find all this out for myself, by simply buying a Y-splitter and another sub cable. But I’d like to get some opinions from you guys first, and to possibly get some theoretical knowledge about these two problems first.

For what it’s worth, the new SVS sub is placed in the Athena sub’s old position – between the front left main speaker and the TV. If I do go dual, I’ll place the Athena between the TV and the front right main speaker. (Don’t know if that’s useful info for you guys, just thought I’d mention it.)

Thanks for any ideas or info you guys might have!

cheers,
supervij

 

[mike c]

personally, i'd recommend that you don't use two different subs together.
23 and 20hz is pretty wide IMO, assuming the athena had accurate posted specs.

don't you have another system to use the athena one? ... no? you're an audioholic? jk!

 

[supervij]

mike, why is the 3 Hz difference considered too wide? (This is just a guess: 23 Hz and up will sound fine, but the region below 23 Hz will be too low in volume due to the reduced sub levels in the receiver?)

I'm afraid I'm a poor example of an audioholic -- just not enough dough floating around these days! Although I'd be happy to accept a donation to go towards a good two-channel set-up!

cheers,
supervij

 

[njedpx3]

mike, why is the 3 Hz difference considered too wide? (This is just a guess: 23 Hz and up will sound fine, but the region below 23 Hz will be too low in volume due to the reduced sub levels in the receiver?)

I'm afraid I'm a poor example of an audioholic -- just not enough dough floating around these days! Although I'd be happy to accept a donation to go towards a good two-channel set-up!

cheers,
supervij

I don't think 3 Hz would make a difference but I will ascede to Mike's better experience and knowledge. I think the bigger difference is using two different subs; that I would strongly agree with Mike that two different subs should not be used togehter if at all possible.

I would use the SVS by itself and sell the Athena. Then if the one SVS doesn't give you enough bass get a second SVS just like the first.

Peace and Good Sound,

Forest Man

 

[mike c]

mike, why is the 3 Hz difference considered too wide? (This is just a guess: 23 Hz and up will sound fine, but the region below 23 Hz will be too low in volume due to the reduced sub levels in the receiver?)

I'm afraid I'm a poor example of an audioholic -- just not enough dough floating around these days! Although I'd be happy to accept a donation to go towards a good two-channel set-up!

cheers,
supervij

3hz when compared to the whole bandwidth seems miniscule, but in the world of subwoofer bass, that 3hz is pretty big.

i remember the time i tried to use an axiom ep500 and a dls-5000r.

in room, one had 23hz extension and one had 18-20hz extension. because you have to balance the channels' overall volume, that few hz at the bottom will be masked. you are correct though that above 23hz it should be ok, how is the athena SQ compared to the PB10?

 

[Davemcc]

I'm using a pair of mismatched subs. I've got the PB12-Plus and the STF-3 in the corner on opposite sides of the mains, not because either of them couldn't work fine on their own but because my room seems to have some acoustic issues and it sounds better with both subs working. Besides, my wife prefers me to have two subs in the living room...how many of you can say that???

 

[walter duque]

I run two different subs in my system (actually 4 counting my 2 powered towers which go down to 20Hz. I run a 12 "down firing which goes down to 25Hz and a 12" with 12" passive raditor front firing which goes to 18Hz. I know it's just a mix of subs, but they seem to intergrade well, or is it that they sound good just to me? And that's all in small apartement, maybe a little overkill.

 

[MatthewB.]

Like Walter I use my subs in my DefTech towers down to 40Hz (then crossed over) to my SVS NSD 12/2 and have a seperate Prosub 800 hooked up to my center (also crossed over at 40Hz to my main sub) so am running 5 powered hooked up to 5 passive radiators in my great room. Dual 12" dual 10" and one 8" sub in a small great room. Works great for me.

 

[Seth=L]

I'd bet the sound you where hearing was port noise or port turbulence from your Athena. I had that subwoofer some time ago and it always did that with low bass frequencies. I always thought the sub sounded pretty good for music, but continuous LFE caused port noise.

 

[supervij]

mike, thanks for confirming my thoughts on the issue. At this point, I'm leaning towards using only the SVS sub and trying to sell the Athena. BUT I'd like to find myself a Y-cable and a subwoofer cable just to hear for myself. The reason:

Both subs:
Pro -- potential taming of peaks and valleys
Con -- lower volume in the sub-23 Hz area

Just the SVS:
Pro -- even volume throughout the 20 - 80 Hz range, subject to room acoustics, of course

So I'll wait until I can try 'em both out at the same time. The Athena sub sounds pretty good. The bass is sometimes a bit bloated, but that might be due to the untreated room in which it sits. I haven't noticed that bloated bass feeling from the SVS yet, but I haven't had much chance to put it through its paces.

Seth, I dunno what that weird sound is from the Athena sub. When I contacted Athena about it (this is back when they were in business), they said, "The crinkly, scratchy sound is the sound of the voice coil of the sub being destroyed. Try turning the receiver output to your sub channel down a little bit, that might help." It's possible that I did have the sub level too high at the time; I was seduced by all the comments from guys here who increased their sub levels by 5 dB or more after level-matching! I never use the sub for 2-channel music, so I can't comment on how it sounds for that. But movies hit much lower frequencies than music -- at least, the music I listen to. And for movies -- the continuous LFE you mention -- it kept giving me that horrifying sound. I'm stoked I finally got to replace it with exactly the sub I've been wanting!

cheers,
supervij

 

[Alex2507]

I run two different subs in my system (actually 4 counting my 2 powered towers which go down to 20Hz. I run a 12 "down firing which goes down to 25Hz and a 12" with 12" passive raditor front firing which goes to 18Hz. I know it's just a mix of subs, but they seem to intergrade well, or is it that they sound good just to me? And that's all in small apartement, maybe a little overkill.

I bet Brothers in Arms would sound real nice with one well placed sub.
Granted the benefit would be most noticeable in the money seat but that's where you sit so ...

 

[walter duque]

I bet Brothers in Arms would sound real nice with one well placed sub.

I have to agree with you on that one, but where. You know my situation. What would you do?

 

[bandphan]

Ive run dual subs of different capabilities using an external crossover to address room issues

 

[billy p]

Hey Supervij...maybe running the Athena at +5 was a little hot.... I had the pb10 about 2.5 dbs hotter than my mains but it could handle it. Like Seth had mentioned in a prior post maybe the Athena just bottemed out but running duals could aide that issue? Remember you reside in an apartment ....

Regards, Bill.....

BTW..nice sub....

 

[Alex2507]

I have to agree with you on that one, but where. You know my situation. What would you do?

I went looking for your Gallery Thread to continue this in there but couldn't find it. To keep it short I would disconnect the sub on the left, swap the position of the sub on the right with the right main to pull it away from the corner, cross all the speakers at 80Hz and eliminate the rear surrounds. The rear surrounds are placed poorly as to be a detractor from the experience and just draw watts from a system that I've seen you drive into protection mode.

Don't do anything yet though. I'd like to plot a graph with a Rives Test CD 2 before, after and at a 60Hz crossover point to be able to actually look at a graph and see what you are listening to. Then determine what you like and either hide your remotes or hide your Heineken so that you don't change the settings for like a month.

I wish I had REW all figured out but I'm not going to have that ... hey, maybe I will have that figured out in the next few weeks ... we'll see.

Ive run dual subs of different capabilities using an external crossover to address room issues

Not a Behringer DCX2496 !!!
You dial those in by eye, right?

 

[Seth=L]

Seth, I dunno what that weird sound is from the Athena sub. When I contacted Athena about it (this is back when they were in business), they said, "The crinkly, scratchy sound is the sound of the voice coil of the sub being destroyed. Try turning the receiver output to your sub channel down a little bit, that might help." It's possible that I did have the sub level too high at the time; I was seduced by all the comments from guys here who increased their sub levels by 5 dB or more after level-matching! I never use the sub for 2-channel music, so I can't comment on how it sounds for that. But movies hit much lower frequencies than music -- at least, the music I listen to. And for movies -- the continuous LFE you mention -- it kept giving me that horrifying sound.

Did you ever hear the subwoofer make any other strange noises?

 

[walter duque]

I went looking for your Gallery Thread to continue this in there but couldn't find it. To keep it short I would disconnect the sub on the left, swap the position of the sub on the right with the right main to pull it away from the corner, cross all the speakers at 80Hz and eliminate the rear surrounds. The rear surrounds are placed poorly as to be a detractor from the experience and just draw watts from a system that I've seen you drive into protection mode.

You got me thinking now about this protection mode. Is it that I overdrive the amp or that the amp requires 5800 watts at max power. I run that of a 15 amp circuit breaker (the whole system runs of one breaker) which only gives me 1650 watts. Would it be the lack of juice or is it overdriving the amp? That 5800 watt requirement is only for the (1) Cinepro.

 

[Alex2507]

You got me thinking now about this protection mode. Is it that I overdrive the amp or that the amp requires 5800 watts at max power. I run that of a 15 amp circuit breaker (the whole system runs of one breaker) which only gives me 1650 watts. Would it be the lack of juice or is it overdriving the amp? That 5800 watt requirement is only for the (1) Cinepro.

Not sure but I don't want to hijack this thread too much. That's a question for Rick.

 

[walter duque]

Not sure but I don't want to hijack this thread too much. That's a question for Rick.

You're right.

 

[supervij]

Bill, you're right: +5 dB was nuts. I just didn't know enough at the time! I figured everyone here was loving their bass, and I should set up the levels similarly. But that lasted only a few months before I redid the levels and brought the sub down to +2. But even then, that's when I got the tin-foil-being-scrunched-up sound that accompanied all the lowest frequencies. Bringing it down to 0 didn't help all that much, but . . .

Now that I have the SVS, I can bump up the sub level a bit more (I have it at +2 now), and it definitely gives music a bit more weight. I was listening to Genesis' A Trick of the Tail SACD last night, and the SVS gives the music a bit more authority, a bit more power, like there's something really strong behind it. I didn't get that with the Athena presumably because I had to reduce the sub level to eliminate the scary noises coming from it (and even then I couldn't really eliminate them).

The Athena probably did bottom out, but I'm not sure running it plus the SVS would help. Levels for both subs would be reduced, which would definitely aid the Athena, but then I'd be sacrificing the sub-23 Hz region for that. I'm not sure yet if that's something I'm prepared to do. Once I get a chance to pick up a Y-splitter and another sub cable, I can find out for myself. Looking forward to it!

And like you said, I do live in an apartment, so volume is not what I'm looking for! (Although, thankfully, I've never had a neighbour complain, probably due to the fact that most of the people in my building are a lot older, possibly with some hearing loss -- so I'm still golden!) I just want clean and accurate bass. Is that so wrong?!

Seth, that scrunchy sound was the only weird noise the sub made. Bad as it was, that was it.

BTW..nice sub....

Yup!

cheers,
supervij