DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

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eomcall

Enthusiast
Rockets today. ELTs tomorrow?
That is quite sad. They should explain why they won't or can't sell the drivers for out of warranty speakers.
This might be the nail.
 
T2T

T2T

Senior Audioholic
They should explain why they won't or can't sell the drivers for out of warranty speakers.
Why would they do that? In the past, nothing from VA321 has been explained ... or, at least not in a truthful manner.

If it came down to the fact that they didn't pay vendors, thus the vendors cut off the supply to VA321, then VA321 would have to take their mask off to show their true face. I don't expect anything of that nature to happen anytime soon.
 
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teknopath

Enthusiast
Maybe they've decided to use the spare drivers as payment to those expecting refunds or charitable donations? :eek: :cool:
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Rockets today. ELTs tomorrow?
That is quite sad. They should explain why they won't or can't sell the drivers for out of warranty speakers.
This might be the nail.
Why would they do that? In the past, nothing from VA321 has been explained ... or, at least not in a truthful manner.

If it came down to the fact that they didn't pay vendors, thus the vendors cut off the supply to VA321, then VA321 would have to take their mask off to show their true face. I don't expect anything of that nature to happen anytime soon.
You have to look at AV451 the way archaeologists look at time. There are two major divisions - the Pu Era and the post Pu era - there are also relatively major events within those divisions - the Richard Pierce Period, the Danny Richie Period (which may yet reinvent itself), the Mark Seaton Period, and so forth. During the Pu Era, MLS worked through Pu to get his speakers built. Mark would come up with the basic design of the speaker, i.e. the way it looks, where he preferred the ports to be, etc. Drivers and crossovers were largely specified by Pierce and then that whole thing was turned over to Pu who had them built. There were, of course, price points that had to be hit from MLS's POV and to some extent that dictated the suppliers, assembly techniques, and so forth. Given a relatively solid initial working model, MLS would then look for ways to improve his margins.

But in the end, it was Pu who was the person buying in bulk and it was he who was able to take advantage of economies of scale and in turn provide the finished product to AV451 for sale.

Once the Pu era ended, or as it was in the process of transitioning (there are always gray areas in archaeological dating) changes had to be made. Hence the original drivers could no longer be sourced through Pu. AV451 of course had a backstock of replacements, but replacements have a way of being used up with respect to warranty claims. To facilitate this transition, marketing spins had to be devised. Spins such as the new driver is more this, more that, better this way or that. This hid the fact that one day there would be a time where older replacement parts would no longer be available. This is especially the case when the drivers, in order to work effectively with the cabinet designs, were very much custom designed with appropriate Thiel-Small parameters.

Now had it been that the parting with Pu was amicable, he just might be able to obtain replacements. However, it was very much not an amicable parting as Pu was stuck with an amount of debt that makes the raffle underfunding amounts look relatively paltry by comparison. Pu, I'm sure will one day have his say with respect to this, but there is no incentive for Pu to facilitate matters. After all, if someone you knew owed you considerable amounts of money and you asked them if they'd do you this favor and you'd pay them in advance for it, what would you do?

As anybody can see, there are enormous fiscal problems presently over at AV451 and there are still enormous amounts of debt that have yet to be settled. This very much precludes them from being able to effectively source a replacement for custom drivers from another vendor since the cash outlay for tooling and minimum orders would place an enormous financial strain on them. Hence, rather than accept this, monies are being diverted to other areas where profits are possible and in quicker fashion. Replacement parts are definitely not that profit friendly.

I do find it sad that with everyone knowing about all the wrongs that have been perpetrated, whether against charities, suppliers and workers not being paid, beta testers, store credits that had to be sold at a discount, prepays that can't be recovered, the value of people's existing products plummeting on the resale market, the ongoing sales of defective products, and so forth, it was this new policy that has gotten people riled up. Now granted, some of these people are also critics but really what about everyone else?

Oh, and with respect to Eras or Epochs, I think we're now seeing the end of the Uniaudio Epoch. While each of these events is different, they do share a commonality in that someone was finding themselves on the hook for large amounts of money and a spin will be created (it already is being done so privately to the few supporters that remain) as to the reason for the severance. There may still be a couple of gasps left, but only a couple. The Era that we, actually they, are now entering is the Extinction phase. The thing is, am I the only one who recognizes it? Or do you see it too?

Humbly bumbly folks!
 
droht

droht

Full Audioholic
I do find it sad that with everyone knowing about all the wrongs that have been perpetrated, whether against charities, suppliers and workers not being paid, beta testers, store credits that had to be sold at a discount, prepays that can't be recovered, the value of people's existing products plummeting on the resale market, the ongoing sales of defective products, and so forth, it was this new policy that has gotten people riled up. Now granted, some of these people are also critics but really what about everyone else?

Humbly bumbly folks!
This is what gets me the most in this whole fiasco. I really question what the hell people are thinking, or where their values are. Lots of bigger events have made me question that since the turn of the century specifically, but the stuff with av123 almost seems worse because I felt like I knew a lot of these folks, at least in a limited way, and found them to be more or less intellgent and good people.
 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
This is what gets me the most in this whole fiasco. I really question what the hell people are thinking, or where their values are. Lots of bigger events have made me question that since the turn of the century specifically, but the stuff with av123 almost seems worse because I felt like I knew a lot of these folks, at least in a limited way, and found them to be more or less intelligent and good people.
I guess it only goes to show that intelligent people can be duped by a slick enough salesman. MLS is one of those guys who could sell ice to an Eskimo and leave the Eskimo bragging to all his friends about it and trying to talk them into buying some too.
 
droht

droht

Full Audioholic
I guess it only goes to show that intelligent people can be duped by a slick enough salesman. MLS is one of those guys who could sell ice to an Eskimo and leave the Eskimo bragging to all his friends about it and trying to talk them into buying some too.
It's one thing not to see through the facade up front - we are both guilty of that - but at some point there is no amount of salesmanship that should sway any of us from knowing black is black and white is white.

You'd think mls could make a fortune selling almost anything. It seems he'd be better served to stop trying to run businesses and just get a job selling Benzes or something.
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
It's one thing not to see through the facade up front - we are both guilty of that - but at some point there is no amount of salesmanship that should sway any of us from knowing black is black and white is white.
I think some people just have a defense mechanism that won't allow them to admit they were duped.
 
droht

droht

Full Audioholic
I think some people just have a defense mechanism that won't allow them to admit they were duped.
You might be right. I got completely emabarassed and then pissed off when I realized how gullible I had been, but I suppose I can see how someone would subconsciously refuse to accept reality to protect themselves from feeling that way.
 
T2T

T2T

Senior Audioholic
You might be right. I got completely emabarassed and then pissed off when I realized how gullible I had been, but I suppose I can see how someone would subconsciously refuse to accept reality to protect themselves from feeling that way.
I was fortunate. My "questionable" meter started to fluctuate a bit more than a year ago. First, I sold my MFW-15 (it was one of the originals, with a solid amp, etc.). Then, about a month later, it was the Rickets that I sold. However, I had a small backslide and replaced the Rickets with a pair of used "X" speakers that I bought used. After living with them for 11 months - they sounded fine (not great), but I would get disturbed during my listening sessions just looking at the speakers ... and knowing what VA321 was all about. :rolleyes:
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
So, how did you read the 'if you need a part' explanation

which can be found here? I took it as if they're no longer making the driver because it's not used in any existing products and they're out of stock, you're basically phucked. They're not going to make an order for 500 or whatever large number is required in order to satisfy a request. There are better places to spend that money. 'Course that doesn't necessarily mean that Pu doesn't have it but we all know what the odds of getting one from there are. What can I say other than this?

 
J

JoshK

Junior Audioholic
Surely I'm not the only one who noticed how carefully the policy explanation was worded.

.........at least the gullible lemmings are back to their infatuated love fest with AV451 again, 'cause we all know Schifty is a man of his word, and won't ever let us down!
 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
Wow, that's a lot of Schiftereze... Read between the lines and you'll see you're still screwed once they're out of parts, and you know they can't be expected to keep them available indefinitely. ;)

I mean you can't expect them to have manged their spare parts better while they were still in product with the products correctly. A competently run company would know they had a x% failure rate for a part and order spares with every orders. So, the more parts they put in the field the more spares they would have. Or, when you were phasing out products you would ensure your last parts order would have enough spares to cover your shipped product based on your failure rate. That would ensure they would never run out of spares no matter how old the speakers are.

On top of that there was no explanation why or how the old "no replacement parts" policy came to be. It was completely ignored. There was no explanation of how his staff misunderstood some policy. Lets not forget multiple people confirmed the policy with AV123, so it's not like one person somehow got AV123's message wrong.

So, just ignore what multiple people confirmed and go with today's message, which isn't really reassuring.
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
Wow, that's a lot of Schiftereze... Read between the lines and you'll see you're still screwed once they're out of parts, and you know they can't be expected to keep them available indefinitely. ;)

I mean you can't expect them to have manged their spare parts better while they were still in product with the products correctly. A competently run company would know they had a x% failure rate for a part and order spares with every orders. So, the more parts they put in the field the more spares they would have. Or, when you were phasing out products you would ensure your last parts order would have enough spares to cover your shipped product based on your failure rate. That would ensure they would never run out of spares no matter how old the speakers are.

On top of that there was no explanation why or how the old "no replacement parts" policy came to be. It was completely ignored. There was no explanation of how his staff misunderstood some policy. Lets not forget multiple people confirmed the policy with AV123, so it's not like one person somehow got AV123's message wrong.

So, just ignore what multiple people confirmed and go with today's message, which isn't really reassuring.
You got to love it over there. They are now thanking him and heaping praise on him for such a great policy. I have not been following the MLS saga much lately but the new policy had me interested again. I forgot just how ridiculous his followers are.
 
T

thenatinator

Junior Audioholic
"I'm not dead yet"

Ok I love the clear as mud policy....
No explanation of what will be discontinued.... Just vargorisms. Looks like someone had their shifty little hands in the warranty reserve......
What about items that are still under warranty and are discontinued. Reference line, Strata mini, etc.... It would of been really easy to say x and x parts will no longer will be available.

I love this "Looked at another way - I asked Order Support how many Parts Sales have we made (this defined as disco'd product - or out of warranty sales) in the last 3 months (I just wanted to know for myself)... Grand Total --- THREE!"
Two of these failures just happened to be in the last two days.... Maybe a better question is how many they didn't sell, couldn't sell, or are still "sourcing".

I just hope it's mac who throws him off the death star in the final scene....
 
droht

droht

Full Audioholic
How big do you suppose the staff of the "parts department" is? Can't they just say "we'll check to see if we have it" rather than continually BSing the zombies?

Maybe they could post an inventory list so people would have a clear picture of what is available. But it might be tough to get an accurate read from "deep storage". What the hell is that, a cache of speaker parts buried 2000 feet down in the Rockies able to withstand a natural disaster or limited nuclear attack?
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
How big do you suppose the staff of the "parts department" is? Can't they just say "we'll check to see if we have it" rather than continually BSing the zombies?

Maybe they could post an inventory list so people would have a clear picture of what is available. But it might be tough to get an accurate read from "deep storage". What the hell is that, a cache of speaker parts buried 2000 feet down in the Rockies able to withstand a natural disaster or limited nuclear attack?
In order to understand the "parts department" it helps to see how difficult it is to keep inventory and track down all the custom high end drivers they will now deprive their most loyal customers who are out of warranty. Deep storage is considered the bottom.





 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
You got to love it over there. They are now thanking him and heaping praise on him for such a great policy. I have not been following the MLS saga much lately but the new policy had me interested again. I forgot just how ridiculous his followers are.
They're liked abused women. "He beats me because he loves me." ;)

They can't bring themselves to leave their abuser because they know deep down he loves them even though he does lots of stuff to hurt them.
 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
How big do you suppose the staff of the "parts department" is?
0 people, just like most of their other phantom departments they pretend to have. You know like Engineering, QA, etc...

To the best of my knowledge VA321 has like 4 employees left. Mark, Suzanne, Corey, & Kyle... They must all be in each and every department. :rolleyes:
 
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