what receivers are producing High Current

S

Superfly

Audioholic Intern
I was wondering how do you tell if a receiver is producing high current?

Also if the higher end models from Yamaha, marantz, Denon, Onkyo, Rotel, NAD are do they still have a sonic signature to them?

Thanks
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
I would hope that any modern receiver/amplifier would be devoid of coloration of any kind.
 
S

Superfly

Audioholic Intern
That is true I have noticed that they tend to have their own sound when you compare them. I haven't compared the top of the line ones though. but I have heard the Pioneer sc-07, Sony 5400ES, Yamaha 3900. Denon 3808. Marantz 7002

But how can you tell which has higher current if I am saying it right.?

is their a formula? eg. the yamaha 3900 has the same numbers as the Yamaha Z7 but it is reported that the Z7 has higher current output. But no were in the documents ore peoples measurements is this info apparent .
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
That is true I have noticed that they tend to have their own sound when you compare them. I haven't compared the top of the line ones though. but I have heard the Pioneer sc-07, Sony 5400ES, Yamaha 3900. Denon 3808. Marantz 7002

But how can you tell which has higher current if I am saying it right.?

is their a formula? eg. the yamaha 3900 has the same numbers as the Yamaha Z7 but it is reported that the Z7 has higher current output. But no were in the documents ore peoples measurements is this info apparent .
The only sonic signature is their Room Eqing. Played without eq in a direct mode, DBT shows no audible difference. As for high current, if the transformer/s are capable the term is merely used in marketing.
 
S

Superfly

Audioholic Intern
Thanks, Does this mean then You should be auditioning the receivers with the surround modes? is this why some receivers have a smoother sound vs more rougher harsher sound.

eg Denon always sounds dull to me everything is their just mono toned while sony marantz had a nice sound to them. is that the sound processing you are saying?
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
Thanks, Does this mean then You should be auditioning the receivers with the surround modes? is this why some receivers have a smoother sound vs more rougher harsher sound.

eg Denon always sounds dull to me everything is their just mono toned while sony marantz had a nice sound to them. is that the sound processing you are saying?
Basically you should be audition speakers not AVRs. When demoing avrs, place them in pure direct or direct to bypass any eqing or tonal adjustments that may have been applied. As long as the AVR can drive the speakers, purchase the one with the feature set you need. Reading up on the different RCs will help with eq and remember that your room and speakers play the largest role on the precieved sound we hear.

some interesting reads..\

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57522&highlight=DBT

http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_data.htm

http://webpages.charter.net/fryguy/Amp_Sound.pdf
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
That is true I have noticed that they tend to have their own sound when you compare them. I haven't compared the top of the line ones though. but I have heard the Pioneer sc-07, Sony 5400ES, Yamaha 3900. Denon 3808. Marantz 7002

But how can you tell which has higher current if I am saying it right.?

is their a formula? eg. the yamaha 3900 has the same numbers as the Yamaha Z7 but it is reported that the Z7 has higher current output. But no were in the documents ore peoples measurements is this info apparent .
I think what you are getting at is what an amp does as the impedance drops. For most receivers they quote the power into an 8 ohm load. This is normally a resistance not a speaker. If they do not specify the performance into a four ohm load, it is safe to assume that the amps current is maximum into an 8 ohm load.

Now I find some of the current crop of receivers are using integrated circuit output stages, which have a miserable performance.

You are pretty safe in assuming that the current output of the lower priced receiver does not increase as impedance drops and that the power into a four ohm load is half that into an 8 ohm load.

Now the situation gets worse. Loudspeakers are not resistors, they present a reactive load, with current not in phase with voltage, that makes the impedance look even lower to the amp, limiting power further.

There is another factor that makes the situation worse. Whatever the manufacturer says most speakers today perform more like four ohm speakers than 8 ohm ones. In fact if you have a tower with more than one bass mid driver you can pretty much go to the bank that impedance will fall to four ohms or less below 600 Hz.

So what output do we get out of a budget receiver rated at 100 watts per channel driving a speaker above? If it is the common 2.5 way tower, and assume a typical phase angle, then we find that our 100 watt specified receiver actually delivers about 35 watts to that speaker before the onset of clipping. Such amps actually don't sound very good when pushed, only at low level. Distortion measurements into a resistive 8 ohm load tell you little about the real world performance of an amp or how it will sound.

What you really need is an amp that will increase it power output at least 50% into a four ohm load, and preferably increase it 100%

I believe there are some receivers in the top price brackets that can do this, but most can't.

If the receiver manufacturer only specifies power into an 8 ohm load, you have every right to assume it is a current limited receiver.

There has been another issue that has come along in recent years. THX specs demand that a speaker is stable into a four ohm load, in other words will not blow up. However what the manufacturers have done, is add current limiting circuits to prevent damage to the output devices, to prevent failure. The result is sudden onset of hard clipping.

I think the increased processing demands of new receivers, has made the receiver a poor option. We have a thread open about how hot these receivers are getting, and a thread were one caught fire.

I think we are at the point were the lower to mid price point receivers are best just used as pre pros for the front three channels and capable external amplification used for the front three.

If you are considering the top priced receivers, my advice would be to go full pre/pro instead.
 
S

Superfly

Audioholic Intern
Thank you, for all the info.
I guess I have to rethink my view on a receiver. Does this mean that eg. The pioneer sc27 limits it's power also? As it doesn't state power in 4ohms
can you make some suggestions of pre and amps that would be good

I would probably just get an amp for now. I am running 5.1
thanks
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you, for all the info.
I guess I have to rethink my view on a receiver. Does this mean that eg. The pioneer sc27 limits it's power also? As it doesn't state power in 4ohms
can you make some suggestions of pre and amps that would be good
Yes there are formula for calculating voltage, current and power, but none will answer your questions unless you define what high current means. People may attempt to answer your questions by making their own assumptions; and that's fine as long as they state the assumptions (as TLSGuy has done). If you go with any mid range power amps then you need not worry about the 'high current' thing at all. That is because regardless of how we wish to define 'high current', any mid range power amps will be much more powerful than so call high current receivers. Having said that I would like to qualify my statement by basing my comments on amps rated for 200 WPC or higher. The popular (on this forum) Emotiva models should be good ones to consider. All bets are off if you go lower.


I would probably just get an amp for now. I am running 5.1
thanks
The fact is, the SC27 may be good enough for you, but since you are already concerned about being power limited, getting an amp now would be a wise move. In that case I suggest you get as much power as you can afford right from beginning. I believe the 3 front channels are more critical and any decent mid range AVR such as the SC27, can handle the surround channels in most applications. So if you are cash limited, go with a 3 channel amp first, otherwise you may as well do it once, get a 5 or 7 channel amp and be done with it.
 
S

Superfly

Audioholic Intern
Thanks Peng,

I guess I should have wrote this first Sorry... Here is my explination

My concern is when you go looking at speakers or receivers I keep getting the same info from the sales, You need to make sure you have clean amplifier power. to run your speakers. I started to really wonder what they meant by that when they are showing a 50 watt amp and telling me it is more powerful than a 100watt amp from another maker.

When I started reading the higher end models info I got info like what Yamaha Z-11 says, :

"Although power rating is generally the first thing people look at, high power output does not necessarily mean good sound. In fact high current level is more important factor. Recognizing this Yamaha developed High current Amplification Technology, which delivers low impedance, high current power from input(power supply circuit) to output(speaker terminals)."


I started off looking for a second system for my bedroom but it has gotten me into looking at my main system as I use it more often. So I am looking to upgrade/ improve my main system.

Then as another eg. I went to listen to B&W 684 speakers and found the highs were hearting my ears and I told the sales person this and he changed from a bryston amp to a Linn amp integrated and the speakers sounded so much better... but this through me for a loop it didn't have the same watts as the bryston... so i became more confused. The sound was warmer but fuller sounding no he couldn't turn it up as loud, but it sounded better.

So I am asking for help to understand this.
 
njedpx3

njedpx3

Audioholic General
That is true I have noticed that they tend to have their own sound when you compare them. I haven't compared the top of the line ones though. but I have heard the Pioneer sc-07, Sony 5400ES, Yamaha 3900. Denon 3808. Marantz 7002

But how can you tell which has higher current if I am saying it right.?

is their a formula? eg. the yamaha 3900 has the same numbers as the Yamaha Z7 but it is reported that the Z7 has higher current output. But no were in the documents ore peoples measurements is this info apparent .
High current is when you are running a speaker with a lower nominal impedance such as 4 ohms or 2 ohms. The power formula is P=I*V= I^2*R= v^2/R Whe you go from 8 ohms to 4 ohms you double the current requirements. Most higher end receiviers, such as you mentioned, can easily handle 4 ohm speakers. In the specific case you sited between Z7 and 3900 it is merely marketing.

The only downside, if you get a lower end AVR that can not handle the current increase due to a lower nominal impedance speaker, you are likely to get a "protection" fault and the AVR will power off.

Good Luck and Good Sound!

Forest Man
 
S

Superfly

Audioholic Intern
ok, so... Is it basically if I have a 100 watt amp x5 channels in 8 ohms and it does 150 watts X5 in 4 ohms then it is not as powerful as a amp that is 50 watts X5 8 ohms but say 80 watts X5 at 4 ohms?

is this fair to say?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
=I started to really wonder what they meant by that when they are showing a 50 watt amp and telling me it is more powerful than a 100watt amp from another maker.
That is entirely possible if he shows you a $5,000 amp that is rated 50W and compared it to a $200 amp that is rated 100W. It is possible because the 50W amp may be rated 50W into 8 ohms, 80 to 100W into 4 ohms and then perhaps even 150 to 200W into 2 ohms. On the other hand the 100W amp may be rated 100W into 8 ohms and only 80W (some Sony receivers are rated that way) into 4 ohms. I am stretching this a little just to illustrate the possibilities.

Further to the power into 8,4,2, or lower ohm ratings, real world speaker loads are complex in nature. Such complex loads typically consist of all 3 components, namely resistance, inductance and capacitance. As such, the load current typically lags behind the applied voltage from the amp output terminals. The more it lags behind the voltage, the harder it is for the amp to drive the speaker as it must deliver more current to develop the same wattage that it would otherwise develop in cases where the current is more in phase with the applied voltage.

For calcuation purposes, the power formula will be:

P=VIcosΘ, where Θ is the phase angle (the angle that the current lags behind the voltage) between the voltage and current phasor (commonly known as vector). For more detailed explanation please do a search on this forum or google it. Since cosΘ is < than 1 unless the phase angle Θ=0 degree; and it decreases as the phase angle increases, to theorectically 0 at 90 degrees, you can see from the formula that when the phase angle is large, P (power) will remain low even at higher current value. So if your speaker is highly inductive at certain frequency range, the amp would have to develop a higher voltage, hence higher current in order to develop the needed real power (in watts) into the highly inductive load.

When large phase angles and low impedance dips coincide in a particular frequency range, the speaker could suddenly become a very difficult load for the amp to deal with. That's when power amps come in handy. Now, all these mean nothing if your listening habbits in your particular acoustic environment only demands a couple of watts. In such scenarios your 120W AVR can handle even those low impedance dips and large phase angle moments. The peak demand moments could still push the amp to the 100W mark but that would still be within your mid range AVR's limit.

When I started reading the higher end models info I got info like what Yamaha Z-11 says, :

"Although power rating is generally the first thing people look at, high power output does not necessarily mean good sound. In fact high current level is more important factor. Recognizing this Yamaha developed High current Amplification Technology, which delivers low impedance, high current power from input(power supply circuit) to output(speaker terminals)."
I would take these kind of marketing verbiage with a grain of salt.

Then as another eg. I went to listen to B&W 684 speakers and found the highs were hearting my ears and I told the sales person this and he changed from a bryston amp to a Linn amp integrated and the speakers sounded so much better... but this through me for a loop it didn't have the same watts as the bryston... so i became more confused. The sound was warmer but fuller sounding no he couldn't turn it up as loud, but it sounded better.

So I am asking for help to understand this
That I do not really understand because in theory it does not make any sense. However, if I were to guess, the B&W 684 probably is the kind of speakers that appeals to people who like 'brighter' sound. If, and only if that was the case, the sometimes perceived 'laid back' kind of amps such as the Linn would have the effect of taming the brightness of the 684. Again, if this was the case then what you experienced would have nothing to do with power, but rather, the effects of sonic characteristics matching between two components.

Bryston engineers design their amps to faithfully reproduce the input signals. They believer the job of the amp is to amplify the signal without altering its waveform. If the sound hurts your ears then stay away from the speakers but don't blame the amp that simply amplify the signal linearly and transparently. That sales rep may wanted to sway you toward the higher margin Linn amp. If true (not sure, you have to judge) then stay away from him too.
 
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S

Superfly

Audioholic Intern
Thanks Peng.. It is starting to make sense. but the power formula you gave me well that... well that will take some understanding ( alot of explination to understand)

I would agree the Linn amp added a sonic signature to it. I can't say i could live with it but it helped make me have second thoughts. That is part of why I have so many questions.

I guess it brings up the next question when listening to speakers what amps should you listen to them on to get a clear sense of the speakers sound. or is this the synergy that is refered to when buying a system that is talked about.
by some people.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks Peng.. It is starting to make sense. but the power formula you gave me well that... well that will take some understanding ( alot of explination to understand)

I would agree the Linn amp added a sonic signature to it. I can't say i could live with it but it helped make me have second thoughts. That is part of why I have so many questions.

I guess it brings up the next question when listening to speakers what amps should you listen to them on to get a clear sense of the speakers sound. or is this the synergy that is refered to when buying a system that is talked about.
by some people.
As far as I know, Linn amps are all Class D, which reacts differently to the load from the way a Class AB amp does. There's nothing wrong with Bryston amps and I have to wonder if the one he was using is a low powered one. Often, when an amp runs out of steam, the high end is very fatiguing and hard to listen to.

If you want an analogy for the power output vs current issue, one car's motor may be high horsepower but low torque at normal RPM and another will pull stumps because it's able to develop more torque. A semi tractor may have a 400HP motor but it may be capable of 1100ft-lb of torque. It's torque that makes the wheels spin, not horsepower. Voltage is similar to water pressure and current is similar to flow rate- you can have all kinds of pressure when there's not much flowing (that's why a tiny spray shoots so far- it's all pressure but no gallons per minute) but when you open the nozzle more, it doesn't go very far.
 
S

Superfly

Audioholic Intern
It could have been a lower rated one I don't remember what model.

I guess the best thing is to get the biggest amp I can.:D
It was easier to buy a car to me it had less variables
 
C

cfrizz

Senior Audioholic
I guess the best thing is to get the biggest amp I can.:D
Yup, That is what I always recommend. Try to get an amp of 200wpc @ 8ohms, this will give you about 300wpc @ 4ohms. This is generally enough power that can drive most speakers to their full potential whether 8 or 4ohm rated.

There are more & more amps being made with this kind of power & more companies like Emotiva & Outlaw making them at affordable prices.
 

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