The DVD / Blu-ray RentalGate Scandal

cwall99

cwall99

Full Audioholic
This move makes near-perfect sense to me. Don't know if it will help or hurt bottom line for movie studios, but I liks the thought process. I look at this as giving the consumer who is willing to buy the movie something extra, not taking away something from renters who are only spending a few dollars, even though the studios are in fact taking away the extras from rental versions. And I say this as a renter. I own very few movies. Maybe this will cause me to buy a few more. Maybe the studios will provide more or better extra features now. That would be nice. I like director's cuts and unrated versions.
When you go to the theater, you aren't buying the movie. You're essentially renting a seat for two hours or so.

Shouldn't I, if I rent the movie, expect to see the full movie?

It'd be like book publishers selling two versions of their books: one version, the complete version, if you will, goes to people who buy the book. Libraries, on the other hand, get stripped down versions, with key passages edited out.

It'd be like going to your local library and checking out a copy of The Catcher in the Rye without the famous "F word" scene (that got it banned from school libraries, but which is so crucial as a plot element). Or checking out a copy of Orwell's 1984 without the "Room 101" scene (again, removed by the publisher because you didn't buy the book).

I think in the long run, this'll turn out to be a huge mistake by the content producers, and that tepid media sales will slow even more.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I haven't noticed this with Netflix yet, however if there are any BDs that have additional discs with special features (which is most of them these days) you don't get any of the additional discs so you miss out on quite a bit. They are renting you the MOVIE though, not the special features.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
That said: I'm sick of mandatory trailers.
You said it! :D If I hear "Here we goooo ! ! . . .", or, "We have our heading!", one more time I think I will scream. :D

I have to admit it is a nice relief when the disc goes straight to title menu. Disney, whew, it's always 10 ads so far that I've seen.
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
If we are paying the same for a rental and getting less movie/features, shouldn't we also get less trailers and advertising, or maybe even none at all.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
You said it! :D If I hear "Here we goooo ! ! . . .", or, "We have our heading!", one more time I think I will scream. :D

I have to admit it is a nice relief when the disc goes straight to title menu. Disney, whew, it's always 10 ads so far that I've seen.
A lot of the time you can hit "top menu" and that will bypass the trailers. Not all discs allow this, but so far most that I have come across do. Others you can hit FF a few times to skip through the various trailers.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
A lot of the time you can hit "top menu" and that will bypass the trailers. Not all discs allow this, but so far most that I have come across do. Others you can hit FF a few times to skip through the various trailers.
In my experiences, most of the time, they are NOT by-passable. Yes, I hit FF 10 times in a row for Disney movies.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
If we are paying the same for a rental and getting less movie/features, shouldn't we also get less trailers and advertising, or maybe even none at all.
Not the way the market works I'm afraid.

And Disney has all those ads to get your children to come tell you to buy that stuff. Think about it: they finance a whole cable TV channel based on selling their own products on it.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
In my experiences, most of the time, they are NOT by-passable. Yes, I hit FF 10 times in a row for Disney movies.
Menu or "TOP MENU"? Menu often does nothing, but Top Menu has worked often for me, though as I said, it does not work for all discs. There are some discs that will simply not allow any button presses to be passed through during the initial startup "this is blu-ray" kind of stuff, though they usually do once the trailers are running. I've done this on the PS3 and the Oppo, not sure about other players.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I'd like to address the various people who are calling me an "idiot" and whatnot for what I wrote about rent/rip/return and piracy.

I found it particularly interesting to be called "part of the problem". Now, "the problem" is that movies cost too much, is it not? "The problem" is that consumers are getting ripped off with these "less than" rental versions. "The problem" is that the Studios go around whining about piracy while simultaneously posting higher and higher profits every year. "The problem" is that ticket prices keep going up.

The solution here is not to swallow the higher ticket prices. The solution is not to accept these gimped rental versions. The solution is not to pay the ridiculously high retail sale prices on Blu-ray movies. And the solution is not to simply forego all movies altogether.

Here is the situation: the Studios are making a product and they deserve to be compensated for their work. We consumers like their product and want to have it. In a perfect world, the studios would offer it at a price. If the consumers feel that the price is fair and something that they can afford, then the consumers will pay it. If the initial price is set too high, sales numbers will not be high and the Studios will drop the price accordingly until there is a proper balance between supply and demand.

But we do not have this sort of balance and we do not have this sort of fair and reasonable relationship. Anyone who thinks that the Studios are willing to be reasonable and willing to try and work towards the sort of "ideal market" that I have described above is simply naive. It's a nice idea, but in the real world, it is always a fight and a battle between the Studios who are simply out to make as much money as they possibly can and the consumers who want high quality products and reasonable prices. At every turn, the Studios will attempt to charge a higher than reasonable price and they will attempt to sell an inferior quality product. All in the hopes of squeezing out just a few more dollars than a reasonable, fair and honest approach would allow.

Piracy is a tool. Piracy is a weapon on the side of consumers. I'm not in support of theft. I'm not in support of taking the work of the Studios without any compensation. If the people who have thrown insults my way had bothered to actually read my remarks, they would understand that I am for a balanced and fair market in which the Studios provide a high quality product at a fair price and consumers, accordingly, pay that price in order to own the product.

The problem is that the Studios have thrown the balance out of whack. They are subjecting us to either inflated prices or a low quality product. Their motivation is greed and greed alone. My advocation for piracy is no different from my advocation for civil disobedience when a government abuses its position of power. Neither piracy nor civil disobedience is something that I like. I do not want for either to be the norm. I do not want either to every be necessary. But in the real world, the masses, the people, the consumers need weapons and tools in order to keep power in check.

I do not want people to be driven towards piracy. If you read my previous comments, it would be clear that my desire is for the Studios to offer Blu-ray movies for sale at a fair price and at the highest quality. If the Studios were to offer full quality, fully featured, reasonably priced Blu-ray movies, I would gladly, GLADLY purchase them at a retail store. I made that perfectly clear.

My position is simply that when the Studios refuse to set their prices according to ideals of fairness and instead, solely attempt to satisfy their own greed; when the Studios react to lower sales numbers by reducing the quality of their product (which is what the original article is all about); then that is when it is appropriate for consumers to rebel and to bring balance and fairness back into the market by using whatever tools and weapons are at our disposal.

Piracy is a fantastic and powerful weapon. And, like any weapon, it can be abused. There are consumers who expect to obtain all products for free. That is not fair. That is not reasonable. That is going too far in the other direction and expecting the Studios to make and sell their product at a loss. That is not my position at all, but it seems as though my detractors automatically jumped to that conclusion.

I don't want to see piracy. I don't want to be a pirate. I want to pay a fair price - a reasonable price, and I want to receive a fully featured and high quality product in return. But the Studios do not have the same goal. They are greedy and they want to be paid more than a fair price. And they are demonstrating that when they do not get that excess, their approach is to lower the quality of the product rather than move towards fairness. When that is the case, consumers are right to fight back. And piracy is simply a great and effective way to do so.

That is all :)
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Menu or "TOP MENU"? Menu often does nothing, but Top Menu has worked often for me, though as I said, it does not work for all discs. There are some discs that will simply not allow any button presses to be passed through during the initial startup "this is blu-ray" kind of stuff, though they usually do once the trailers are running. I've done this on the PS3 and the Oppo, not sure about other players.
Either, but I use Top Menu 99.9% of the time. Top Menu is programmed into the guide-key on my URC, and Menu is programmed into, well, the Menu-key.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
I don't want to see piracy. I don't want to be a pirate. I want to pay a fair price - a reasonable price,
But you are a pirate and a "reasonable" price is not your decision. I want a BMW and I think they are over priced... hmmmm... I'll just steal one. Same thing. Studios lose a ton of money due to piracy and they know it... No biggie, we'll just charge more for the ones sold. You are contributing to the problem and you can't justify good ol' theft. Sorry. You're wrong.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I'd like to address the various people who are calling me an "idiot" and whatnot for what I wrote about rent/rip/return and piracy.

I found it particularly interesting to be called "part of the problem". Now, "the problem" is that movies cost too much, is it not? "The problem" is that consumers are getting ripped off with these "less than" rental versions. "The problem" is that the Studios go around whining about piracy while simultaneously posting higher and higher profits every year. "The problem" is that ticket prices keep going up.

The solution here is not to swallow the higher ticket prices. The solution is not to accept these gimped rental versions. The solution is not to pay the ridiculously high retail sale prices on Blu-ray movies. And the solution is not to simply forego all movies altogether.
Then RENT! Netflix is $9.99 with UNLIMITED streaming. You are barking up the wrong tree brother.

Why would I waste even 2 GB of space when I can simply add a movie that I want to see again back to my queue at Netflix.

I don't have to have anything that much to have to have it now.

Your mind set reminds me of what defines a child:

I want what I want, when I want, how I want it. Me, Me, Me, Me, Me...

Obviously there isn't a single palatable solution out there for you:rolleyes::mad:

Yes you are part of the problem.
 
B

Ben_in_COSpring

Junior Audioholic
Why would I waste even 2 GB of space when I can simply add a movie that I want to see again back to my queue at Netflix.
1) Because if it's on your hard drive you can go straight to the movie without the stupid forced previews (thank you AnyDVD HD).
2) Because if it's on your hard drive it's a hell of a lot harder for your wife to loan it out the the lady that has already borrowed 20 movies and not returned a single one of them.
3) Because if it's on your hard drive it's really hard for your kids to scratch (though not impossible).
4) Because if it's on your hard drive it's a hell of a lot easier to back up.
5) Because paying $300 for a Blu-Ray player from a manufacturer that cares more about what movie studios think than what their customers think is not something we should be doing.
6) Because hard drives are cheap (2TB for $140 on Black Friday = ~$1.50/movie)
7) Because when you start with it on your hard drive it's a lot easier to transcode to play on other devices.
8) XBMC.
9) Because the movies are upstairs and the projector is downstairs.
10) Because putting them on your hard drive pisses the movie studios off, even if no piracy is involved.
 
B

Ben_in_COSpring

Junior Audioholic
BTW, I am not advocating piracy - just for putting your movies on a hard drive.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
1) Because if it's on your hard drive you can go straight to the movie without the stupid forced previews (thank you AnyDVD HD).
2) Because if it's on your hard drive it's a hell of a lot harder for your wife to loan it out the the lady that has already borrowed 20 movies and not returned a single one of them.
3) Because if it's on your hard drive it's really hard for your kids to scratch (though not impossible).
4) Because if it's on your hard drive it's a hell of a lot easier to back up.
5) Because paying $300 for a Blu-Ray player from a manufacturer that cares more about what movie studios think than what their customers think is not something we should be doing.
6) Because hard drives are cheap (2TB for $140 on Black Friday = ~$1.50/movie)
7) Because when you start with it on your hard drive it's a lot easier to transcode to play on other devices.
8) XBMC.
9) Because the movies are upstairs and the projector is downstairs.
10) Because putting them on your hard drive pisses the movie studios off, even if no piracy is involved.
I understand that and I have my collection on HD. My point being that I purchased all my content. I didn't rent-n-rip and then make all sorts of excuses about taking what isn't mine to take.

I use Netflix because there are titles I want to see without having to purchase. If I liked the movie that much then I will go out and purchase a copy for myself. My last two titles were Tombstone and Hellboy II (purchased both in the last 7 days).
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
I understand that and I have my collection on HD. My point being that I purchased all my content. I didn't rent-n-rip and then make all sorts of excuses about taking what isn't mine to take.

I use Netflix because there are titles I want to see without having to purchase. If I liked the movie that much then I will go out and purchase a copy for myself. My last two titles were Tombstone and Hellboy II (purchased both in the last 7 days).
My only problem with what you said is that you purchased Tombstone in the last 7 days... why didn't you own this fantastic movie sooner? Shame on you :p
 
Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
...I found it particularly interesting to be called "part of the problem". Now, "the problem" is that movies cost too much, is it not? "The problem" is that consumers are getting ripped off with these "less than" rental versions. "The problem" is that the Studios go around whining about piracy while simultaneously posting higher and higher profits every year. "The problem" is that ticket prices keep going up.

The solution here is not to swallow the higher ticket prices. The solution is not to accept these gimped rental versions. The solution is not to pay the ridiculously high retail sale prices on Blu-ray movies. And the solution is not to simply forego all movies altogether...

...I don't want to see piracy. I don't want to be a pirate. I want to pay a fair price - a reasonable price, and I want to receive a fully featured and high quality product in return. But the Studios do not have the same goal. They are greedy and they want to be paid more than a fair price. And they are demonstrating that when they do not get that excess, their approach is to lower the quality of the product rather than move towards fairness. When that is the case, consumers are right to fight back. And piracy is simply a great and effective way to do so...
That is all :)
As a consumer the way to send a message is to not buy overpriced products or only buy products that are affordable or when they're on sale. retailers and studios notice when a movie sells 25 times more copies in the week it's on sale for $15 than it did in the past 4 months combined at a bloated retail of $30 or more. That's what drives prices down, it's the demand portion of basic supply and demand.

The only message renting and ripping sends to studios is that they are justified with DRM and need lots more of it on all their products.
 
cwall99

cwall99

Full Audioholic
As a consumer the way to send a message is to not buy overpriced products or only buy products that are affordable or when they're on sale. retailers and studios notice when a movie sells 25 times more copies in the week it's on sale for $15 than it did in the past 4 months combined at a bloated retail of $30 or more. That's what drives prices down, it's the demand portion of basic supply and demand.

The only message renting and ripping sends to studios is that they are justified with DRM and need lots more of it on all their products.
I agree one hundred percent with this. While I think it's despicable that studios would put out two different versions of a movie, one if you rent and another, more complete version if you buy it, If you're going to make illegal copies of a movie (which is what rent & rip is), then you have no moral footing on which to stand.

At the same time, I also think that about the only logic that movie studios understand is the number that appears in the bottom, right-hand corner of the spreadsheet.

It's a two-way street. They try to dictate to us what the price will be, but we let them know what we think a fair price is by buying products at the price we think is right.
 
N

nickboros

Audioholic
I just rented Terminator Salvation on Blu-ray from Netflix this past weekend and didn't notice that it was the theatrical cut. I'm kind of angry now, knowing that I can't watch the director's cut unless I buy the movie. I tried clicking on the Fox Studios link to contact someone to complain, but I'm not sure who to contact about this. Anyone try to actually send an angry email about this to Fox?
 
W

wiyosaya

Audioholic
:rolleyes: Like divx (not the left-over codec) that failed because people just did not want to pay to "own" a dvd that they were actually "renting," I'll predict that this model will seriously hurt the rental source of revenue if not fail altogether. There are many movies that I will not buy, but I will consider renting. With this model, I am not likely to rent one of my "will not buy, but will rent" choices if the "special features" are locked out; that is lost revenue for the studio and for the rental agent (i.e., Blockbuster, NetFlix, etc).

Personally, I am really tired of this kind of thinking. IMHO, studios will nickle and dime us to death if we let them.

I also think that this type of thinking is preventing Blu-ray recorders from appearing in the US market, and I also think the fact that you cannot get stand-alone Blu-ray recorders in the US is hurting the Blu-ray market.
 

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