New system

[Timmy245]

Hey guys

wondering if you can help me out here, my situation so far is that im looking to build a new system up completely, i have a current 5.1 setup which i dont mind but its not cutting it for me, i believe this is partly due to the fact that i rushed into decisions and would not like to make the same mistake again.

i would like to start with a receiver at the moment im running my system through a denon AVR-789 but the problem that im hoping you can help me with is, do i need more than a receiver, i want to have a great setup but dont have the understanding of what pre-amps are used for etc if you could help me with understanding all of the different components it would be gretaly appreciated because at the moment all i know about are av receivers but i would like more power/more components yet have little knowledge of where to start in the process of creating such a setup, etc. seperates, can these only run 1 speaker from each seperate amp and if i would like to have seperate amps i still need a receiver to connect the seperates to, correct?

so really what im looking for is a powerful/great sounding setup i realise that speakers are the main effect on the sound i will hear but would like to start this upgrade by starting with the "main source " (being amps/receivers) of the setup.

im prepared to spend anywhere between $1500-2000 on the main component and can expand budget if need be but would obviously llike to have a large portion left for speakers also if you wouldnt mind i would love if you could leave some personal opinions on what i should consider such as brands, model numbers etc.

i look forward to hearing your replies on this topic and am sorry that you have to deal with people like me asking what must seem to most as a stupid question lol

thanks in advance

TiM

 

[KEW]

Tim,
I believe you will get a better response if you go ahead and say what speakers you have and what you feel is missing from your current sound.
I'm not qualified to answer your question directly but I can say that the replies will likely put emphasis on speakers (as you expected) and improvements to room acoustics as the two most significant influences on sound quality.

 

[Timmy245]

Thanks KEW

yes i did forget to mention what speakers i currently have, and at the moment i have klipsch f1s which are very entry level, to be honest i have nothing against these speakers, but i would personally like better, you mentioned what do i feel is missing, the answer to that is power i love to play music and i really enjoy playing it loud, in this future setup its going to be extremely important to me that i can turn this system up extremely loud and still have cripsness and clarity to it just like i would at "sane" listening levels, i dont feel as though these speakers can give me what im looking for in that regard and nor can the receiver i currently have if i was to only upgrade the speakers

Thanks again.

TiM

 

[njedpx3]

Timmy245,

Denon AVR-789 has pre-outs and puts out 90 watts per channel. Pre-outs allow you to connect to an external amplifier to provide more power primarily for the front speakers.

The Denon AVR-789 is a a good AVR; I would not replace it right now.

What speakers do you currently have ?


If you don't like your current sound I would concentrate on replacing your front speakers. If you listen to movies and/or TV then the center channel is important for dialog and the center should match the fronts to maintain timbre (seamless front sound). The surrounds are for enchancement and are not as important as the fronts; you might consider holding off for now replacing them. A subwoofer is good for bass and low frequencies. It does not have to match the other speakers, but you need a good sub for good bass sounds. A cheap sub, sounds cheap; some good brands are SVS and Hsu.

Concerning the fronts and center, there are many speakers in the $1,500 to $2,000 range; I would got to a Home Theater store near you and audition as many speakers as you can in your price range. Pick the one that sounds best to you. Take CDs/DVDs of the music you normally listen too and try to get a set-up that is close to your room size.

Good Luck!

Forest Man

 

[Timmy245]

Timmy245,

Denon AVR-789 has pre-outs and puts out 90 watts per channel. Pre-outs allow you to connect to an external amplifier to provide more power primarily for the front speakers.

The Denon AVR-789 is a a good AVR; I would not replace it right now.

What speakers do you currently have ?


If you don't like your current sound I would concentrate on replacing your front speakers. If you listen to movies and/or TV then the center channel is important for dialog and the center should match the fronts to maintain timbre (seamless front sound). The surrounds are for enchancement and are not as important as the fronts; you might consider holding off for now replacing them. A subwoofer is good for bass and low frequencies. It does not have to match the other speakers, but you need a good sub for good bass sounds. A cheap sub, sounds cheap; some good brands are SVS and Hsu.

Concerning the fronts and center, there are many speakers in the $1,500 to $2,000 range; I would got to a Home Theater store near you and audition as many speakers as you can in your price range. Pick the one that sounds best to you. Take CDs/DVDs of the music you normally listen too and try to get a set-up that is close to your room size.

Good Luck!

Forest Man

Thankyou for your reply, i appreciate the help and advice, although i do still have a few questions one of these being the 789 having pre-outs? mine doesnt and was a concern to me as you have stated speakers are more important i completely agree but dont think the 789 could handle what i would like to buy in the speaker range im loooking at which is why i would like to start the upgrade with an amp/receiver which brings me back to my original question i still cant reallly understand what i will need for an amp/ receiver i dont think that a receiver just by itself will be adequate, and would just like more power by using sources such as seperated etc i understand that it is impossible for you to tell me what i need, but if i was to say i have been looking into paradigm studio 100s or some from the b&w
lineup (which at the moment are the two brands im heading towards, of course my deciision could still change, as i said i dont want to rush into decisions this time) would that make it any easier for a suggestion as to what kind of sources i need in regard to amplification
i understand my question/s are from a newb perspective and really do appreciate all your help.
thanks again guys

TiM

 

[KEW]

What speakers do you currently have ?

He has Klipsch F1s.

Tim,
Some people feel that powering all 5 channels compromises the power and off-loading the front chanels using a separate 2 channel amp is a good solution. However I agree with Forest Man. That should not be your first place to look.
I took my Paradigm S1's which are my least efficient speakers (84dB at 1 watt) and powered them with a 60WPC amp (with leds to indicate clipping) in my 24x28x12' living room. My objective was to determine the maximum watts I should have. I ran it as loud as I could stand (peaks about 95dB across the room from the speakers) the leds never lit and the volume was about two thirds of the way up. I established that 60 Watts is more than ample for me. Most likely your speakers will be at or above 87dB, which means they will require half of the power of my S1's for the same loudness.
Similarly, if you do want to increase the loudness of your system, doubling the power only nets a 3dB increase in SPL, so it is generally recommended that you at least double the power if you are going to attempt this.
You use the work power, not loudness, so perhaps it is the "impact" you get out of the music when say a kick-drum, cymbal, bass and guitar all hit at once. I am thinking Forrest Man may have it pegged by suggesting you consider your subwoofer (tuning to your room as well as model) as well as speakers. Does this sound right?

 

[Timmy245]

He has Klipsch F1s.

Tim,
Some people feel that powering all 5 channels compromises the power and off-loading the front chanels using a separate 2 channel amp is a good solution. However I agree with Forest Man. That should not be your first place to look.
I took my Paradigm S1's which are my least efficient speakers (84dB at 1 watt) and powered them with a 60WPC amp (with leds to indicate clipping) in my 24x28x12' living room. My objective was to determine the maximum watts I should have. I ran it as loud as I could stand (peaks about 95dB across the room from the speakers) the leds never lit and the volume was about two thirds of the way up. I established that 60 Watts is more than ample for me. Most likely your speakers will be at or above 87dB, which means they will require half of the power of my S1's for the same loudness.
Similarly, if you do want to increase the loudness of your system, doubling the power only nets a 3dB increase in SPL, so it is generally recommended that you at least double the power if you are going to attempt this.
You use the work power, not loudness, so perhaps it is the "impact" you get out of the music when say a kick-drum, cymbal, bass and guitar all hit at once. I am thinking Forrest Man may have it pegged by suggesting you consider your subwoofer (tuning to your room as well as model) as well as speakers. Does this sound right?

Thankyou for all that information
that helps quite a bit and yes what you are saying does sound right, at the moment im feeling as though i want more from the speakers and am not able to get it, so going down the upgrade track which is what i am preparing for and it will be a lengthy process do you suggest that i start with 2 really good fronts and a sub, and if so (i think i read correctly) i could run these high quality speakers on my current amp and if still feel the need to upgrade the amplification i can choose to do so.

do you think this is how i should go about upgrading my system , adding surrounds later on and leaving the amplification to last to upgrade or is this not what you were trying to say

Thanks for all your help so far KEW

TiM

 

[njedpx3]

Thankyou for your reply, i appreciate the help and advice, although i do still have a few questions one of these being the 789 having pre-outs? mine doesnt and was a concern to me as you have stated speakers are more important i completely agree but dont think the 789 could handle what i would like to buy in the speaker range im loooking at which is why i would like to start the upgrade with an amp/receiver which brings me back to my original question i still cant reallly understand what i will need for an amp/ receiver i dont think that a receiver just by itself will be adequate, and would just like more power by using sources such as seperated etc i understand that it is impossible for you to tell me what i need, but if i was to say i have been looking into paradigm studio 100s or some from the b&w
lineup (which at the moment are the two brands im heading towards, of course my deciision could still change, as i said i dont want to rush into decisions this time) would that make it any easier for a suggestion as to what kind of sources i need in regard to amplification
i understand my question/s are from a newb perspective and really do appreciate all your help.
thanks again guys

TiM

TiM

I looked up the Denon AVR online ( http://www.usa.denon.com/AVR-789-OM-E_205A.pdf ) and on page 6 section you are correct it shows only pre-out for subwoofer. I was incorrectly looking at section 10 which are your speaker connections.

Okay 90 watts is pretty good. when you are looking fro speakers fro your current denon AVR look for 8 ohm nominla impedance (most are 8, 4 ohms uses twice the power). And pay attention to the sepaker effieciency or snesitivity. Low effeciency ( 80 dB) speakers require a lot of power. Normal efficiency speakers ( around 90 dB) require an average amount of power. High effeciency ( close to 100 dB) require a low amount of power to produce large/high sound output. Any speakers above average toward high efficiency, somewhere 91 dB or higher would work with your current AVR.

If and when you replace your AVR there are many things to consider, HDMI 1.3 repeating, pre-outs, watts per channel. You are probalby looking at a minimum of $ 400 ; there are many good brands Denon/Marantz, Pioneer, Yamaha, Onkyo.

Good Luck!

Forest Man.

 

[Timmy245]

Thanks very much
the info you have given on what to look out for when buying speakers is greatly appreciated for this future setup im also considering a dedicated cd changer instead of using the ps3 would this be a worthy upgrade(i would still keep the ps3 for blu-rays and gaming obviously) if this would be worth the money i was looking at something like a rotel rcc-1055 i understand its quite an expensive unit and not something i could just go and buy and hope for the best, so i have a couple of questions on this subject aswell

1) does having the same brand cd changer as the receiver improve sound?
2) are there any cd changers you could recommend to me (if you truly think this is not worth the upgrade from ps3 then i cant see myself getting one but if you think that theres quite an audible different from the higher quality source component than i will make a cd changer a must have, as i want to get it all right this time and not back tracking like i am now regretting some decisions made on my current system)

thanks on your replys once again

TiM

 

[KEW]

Thankyou for all that information
that helps quite a bit and yes what you are saying does sound right, at the moment im feeling as though i want more from the speakers and am not able to get it, so going down the upgrade track which is what i am preparing for and it will be a lengthy process do you suggest that i start with 2 really good fronts and a sub, and if so (i think i read correctly) i could run these high quality speakers on my current amp and if still feel the need to upgrade the amplification i can choose to do so.

do you think this is how i should go about upgrading my system , adding surrounds later on and leaving the amplification to last to upgrade or is this not what you were trying to say

TiM

That is how I would do it.
I understand that you were thinking in terms of needing more power for the speakers to react properly. But another way to look at it is having drivers in your speakers more responsive to the signal they are fed. It is safe to say your amp is much better at generating the signal than speakers are at the electro-mechanical conversion of that signal into soundwaves.
Assuming your amp is not woefully deficient (which it isn't), there is more "goody" to be had from putting money into speakers than into amplification.
You didn't mention your subwoofer, but I think the first step would be to replace your speakers. Keep your old speakers for now. When you get the new speakers home switch back and forth between the new and the old. Unless you have tuned it to your room, I would also turn off the sub, because my experience is - in the wrong room an untuned sub does more harm than good to music! Get a sense of how much improvement you are realizing from the new vs. old speakers.
I have found dealers willing to let me buy and take home my two favorite pairs of speakers with the provision that I can return one or both pairs within a week for a full refund. There is a lot to be said for setting them up in your own home and having a couple of days to listen.

 

[KEW]

Thanks KEW
in this future setup its going to be extremely important to me that i can turn this system up extremely loud and still have cripsness and clarity to it just like i would at "sane" listening levels, i dont feel as though these speakers can give me what im looking for in that regard and nor can the receiver i currently have if i was to only upgrade the speakers
Thanks again.
TiM

One concern is that you might get the best system in the world and still not reach this goal. If your room is full of reflective surfaces, as you turn up the volume, the reflected sound gains dominance and intermingles with the crisp and clear sound coming from your perfect system's speakers and you get mush at your ears!

 

[Timmy245]

That is how I would do it.
I understand that you were thinking in terms of needing more power for the speakers to react properly. But another way to look at it is having drivers in your speakers more responsive to the signal they are fed. It is safe to say your amp is much better at generating the signal than speakers are at the electro-mechanical conversion of that signal into soundwaves.
Assuming your amp is not woefully deficient (which it isn't), there is more "goody" to be had from putting money into speakers than into amplification.
You didn't mention your subwoofer, but I think the first step would be to replace your speakers. Keep your old speakers for now. When you get the new speakers home switch back and forth between the new and the old. Unless you have tuned it to your room, I would also turn off the sub, because my experience is - in the wrong room an untuned sub does more harm than good to music! Get a sense of how much improvement you are realizing from the new vs. old speakers.
I have found dealers willing to let me buy and take home my two favorite pairs of speakers with the provision that I can return one or both pairs within a week for a full refund. There is a lot to be said for setting them up in your own home and having a couple of days to listen.

Thanks Kew

the sub i currently have is klipsch 10" (as i bought these speakers as a package) when you say tune your sub, how can i do this to match the room its in, just tweak the settings until i find im getting the best output from the sub/speakers or should i go and buy something to measure the exact specifications when my speakers and sub are playing

thanks again

TiM

 

[KEW]

REW is Room EQ Wizard. It is free software. Here is the best source of info I know of:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/11707-room-eq-wizard-rew-information-index-links-guides-articles-stickies-please-read.html

 

[Lordoftherings]

Hi Timmy,

* The Onkyo TX-NR1007 goes for $999.

* The Denon AVR-3808CI goes for $799.

These are excellent choices and prices for these receivers.
Thought that you might want to know.

Bob

 

[Timmy245]

Hey again guys

sorry for not being able to reply for quite a while!
Ive gone and done quite a bit of homework, and auditioning at some high end audio stores, ive now learnt about the different components and how they are used to create either a great 2ch, 5.1ch, 7.1ch setup etc.
what ive decided is to go 2 channel as i find myself listening to music majority of the time i would like a really good 2 channel system and have been out auditioning many different speakers.
Ive raised my budget for this 2 channel setup to $10,000 Australian dollars.

Some of the speakers i have listened to were, KEFs, Paradigm, Dynaudio, Krix (Local company) im not certain on the model of which the KEFs were that i auditioned, but thought they sounded quite good especially considering their smaller size in comparism to the Paradigm, the retail for these floorstanders were $6,600.

The Paradigm models that i auditioned, i do remember, specifically the Signature S2s V.2 that i thought had amazing sound, retail for these were $5,500 in piano black and $4,700 in the other various colours. I also listened to the Studio 100s, 60s and the 20s. I was extremely impressed with all the studio models (all being V.5) the 100s retailing for $6,500, the 60s for $4,500 and the 20s for $2,600. (for both the S2s and Studio 20s i auditioned with the J-29 stands which retail for $799 a pair.

The dealer of the store i auditioned made me aware that the 100s will probably over power my room with the amount of bass produced, and gave me the suggestion of two high quality bookshelves paired with a high quality yet compact size subwoofer he mentioned the likes of polkaudio or rel would be a good choice to pair with some bookshelves, as my room is only 4X5m with 8' ceilings.

I had auditioned all these speakers using the Rotel RSP-1570 paired with the 2ch RB-1582. The 1570 retailing for $2,999 and the 1582 retailing for 1,299.

Another thing i spent some time looking at was a quality CD player a couple i spent some time with were the Rotel RCD-1520 and the Cambridge Audio Azur 740C both sounded to be great sounding units with a high quality build. The 1520 retailing for $1,199 and the 740C retailing for a little more at $1,699

As i said i spent some time with Dynaudio and krix but spent more time with the speakers listed above. The Dynaudios i spent some time with were the contours and the Krix i listened to were the Neuphonix, being the top of the range in the krix floorstander lineup at $3,500.

So as you can see i have quite a few choices to consider before i make a purchase. I really liked the Rotel gear and thought that it gave great value for the money! however i would love for you guys to give suggestions on a pre/pro paired with a 2channel power amp (this is the way ive decided i would like to run the amplification, as if i were to upgrade to 5.1 later down the track, i can add another power amp to the pre/pro to run the extra 3 channels)

Any help from you guys at this point in time would be greatly appreciated, understandably a little hard to give recommendations as my budget is in AUD. But would love to hear your opinions on what i should be looking at for 2 good quality speakers, pre/pro and power amp recommendations would be fantastic aswell and cd player suggestions are more then welcome! As this is the item i got to spend the least amount of time with when auditioning.

Perhaps what im already considering is quite a good setup, certainly out of what i listened to the Sig 2s came out on top for me paired with the rotel 1570 + 1582 and cd player was the rotel 1520, so obviously im not asking for you to make my decision for me, but knowing that my budget is $10,000 AUD any suggestions that are within or close to this budget, so that i can go and audition all of the opinions that im given would be great!

I would really like to be able to audition as many different speakers, setups as i can before i make a purchase, which is why i need some help from people with personal experiences with, perhaps what im currently considering or what i should be considering!

Any thoughts on the systems ive already auditioned mentioned above are more then welcome also!

Thanks again guys, and i look forward to hearing all the advice and expertise you guys can give me to help me with my final decision!

 

[jostenmeat]

The following is based on my recent experiences, formed as an opinion:

I believe the most important things, assuming one simply picks a "good" speaker to begin with, are the exact placement of speakers and listeners within the room. What is great is that this part is free.

Depending on your room, and how large it is, I might tell you that if I "did it all over again", there is some decent chance I would re-do it with a "front three", as identical speakers. Just as important, in regards to the actual room, is the willingness to treat the space.

(Excuse me, I've been listening/watching mch blurays recently, and I happen to have separate HT and stereo).

There is no doubt that Rotel makes nice stuff. However, I wouldn't really think too much, at least not to the extent that you are right now, about this stuff until you do choose the speakers.

FWIW, I use a sub-$1000 integrated to power speakers that drop to 0.7 ohm. This allowed me to get my favorite speakers, while also allowing money for significant treating of the space. Not nearly enough to tame the room entirely, but enough of a compromise to help out enormously.

I'm only familiar with the Dyn Contours, of the ones you listed, and I was extremely pleased, but I did not give them a thorough audition, as I had already selected my speakers, and was actually at a Dynaudio-only speaker store to check out some other brand subs. I also got to hear some ridiculously priced electronics, some very high end Dyns, Sunfire, Krell, a Sony PJ, etc . . . but they sounded very nice indeed. Smooth I would say, but that's just a topical impression. My immediate advice:


1) get the speakers you want.

2) focus on room acoustics, BIG TIME. It matters a whole lot, and please note that over half what you hear is actually the room.

3) adequate amplification.

4) yes, I do believe pre/pros might sound differently, but they are all so good distortion-wise, you should focus here last. I am one who did spend a lot on the cdp, because it really did sound so much better than my Denon DVD player at the time, but what I didn't know is that I perhaps didn't have to quite spend that much to get a nice sound from a cdp. $200 should be more than enough, ideally. Just ask around.

5) read #2

 

[Timmy245]

Thanks so much Josten!

Regarding room acoustic treatment, what kind of materials should i buy to create a better room acoustically? and how much would i be looking at to treat say 50% of my room this is my bedroom and ive provided a picture to maybe help you give me opinions on what materials would work best.

Thanks again

 

[jostenmeat]

Timmy, I promise you I will chime in within the next 24 hours. It's late here, lol. For the moment, I will say that you should also take a pic of the back of the room. For a common issue is having the listener too close to the back wall. The general recommended starting point is to have a 38% room length positioning for balancing the axial modes, doesn't matter from front or back wall, in a rectangular room, and that according to the very knowledgeable bpape (GIK) this number can drop to 33% due to non-axial modes.

Ok, this is the part that you will like to hear, because the above sounds so scientific, right? The resident acoustics expert here would be one of the first to say, as they might with cooking, simply add to taste.

Try all kinds of experimenting with the speakers AND yourself. On one hand, treating allows easier placement of speakers because one is not trying to balance things like imaging vs avoidance of modes. OTOH, maybe you won't need to treat as much as many others might. Especially with your budget, and particularly with 2 channel, it's been noted by some experts that leaving sidewalls untreated with speakers that have excellent off-axis response can sound better this way. Expansion of stereo width, while the excellent off-axis response means that the polar response is not so contaminated.

Ok, good night!

almost forgot, DIY is definitely cheapest, although I personally don't think Real Traps or GIK are too exorbitant for what you really get. You want rigid fiberglass. Owens Corning. 703, or the more expensive 705. Look towards readyacoustics for DIY-made-easier as an in between compromise. Then again, in AUS, maybe it's just really best to DIY, due to what must turn out to be expensive shipping costs. OTOH, one of our moderators here lives far away, and bought a lot of US acoustical treatment product. . .

 

[Timmy245]

Thanks Josten
heres a pic of the back of the room.

Cheers

 

[jostenmeat]

Thanks for the pics. I say just get the speakers you want (#1), and then experiment, experiment, experiment. You will get a good familiarity with the setup, and then you start to bring in treatments, and once again, experiment, experiment, experiment.

I like fancy electronics as much as the next guy, but I personally don't drop coin on that stuff until I can do as much as I can in getting the speakers I want, and the treatments that I want. That is me and my opinion.