Finally happy with my setup.

[PENG]

i will never win the argument with you based on actual technical knowledge but.. why do some of you guys have to slam a guy even backhandedly when he's excited and proud of his new gear..

I don't see any slamming here other than people expressing their opinions or sharing their own experiences. Some people are of the opinion that amps, preamps are more important than speakers and room acoustics. I am not sure what the OP's opinion is but I congratulated him for having acquired such a beautiful piece of engineered product. Having said that, I see nothing wrong for forum members to be reminded that if they have a budget, and are serious about listening to hi fidelity music, they may want to focus more on speakers and room acoustics.

People here exchange ideas and share knowledge all the time in trying to help each other. It is good to have more views expressed so please do not think one is slamming the others just because he/she expresses a different view, especially if his/her view is based on scientific facts. Thanks in advance for considering my points.

 

[mtrycrafts]

let me ask a question and I'm sure I'll get slammed for this.

No slamming just pointing out the errors of your comparisons of audio and a car. While many audiophiles do this, it is not a proper comparison at all.

but if say BMW and Inifiniti(I sell both so i love both) take the same basic components suspension and engine and they engineer them pretty close and use similar building techniques.. why is there such a difference in the drive from the two companies. Why is there such a difference in horsepower rating from the two yet not so much a speed difference.

Obviously they are not made enough to be the same components or anything else, are they? Everything is different enough to make a difference in feel. May want to dig into it and check into the actual specs of components, like cylinder diameter, stroke lengths, compression, gearing, and on it goes.
And, how would you really do a DBt between the two?

I think companies can take similar parts.. and come out with very different end units.. so can a Mac sound better than a Denon.. I think so..

Yes, they can sound different but do they? That can be tested much simpler than your car analogy, but, as WmAx indicated, you need a DBT protocol, levels matched, not clipping, staying withing design specs, output impedance very low for amps. And, so far, no such differences can be produced.
Besides, car parts are vastly different from makes and withing makes.

do you think that in your desire to slam high end companies you arent jading your mind to not hear a difference? if it can be true in one direction it can be true in the other.. right?

Actually, wrong there. One cannot turn off their biases, and, under DBT how would you? And, golden ears do not do any better at all, and they want to hear differences, no? Besides, WmAx didn't slam the high end, just gave the facts of research that anyone can try to replicate, under the proper controlled conditions, of course.

.. why do some of you guys have to slam a guy even backhandedly when he's excited and proud of his new gear..

He didn't slam his gear, only his unreliable perceptions for his attempted comparisons? And, it wasn't a slam, just pointing out the pitfalls and unreliable, false beliefs that humans can succumb to. Audio is not unique. Most human endeavour has similar false beliefs and unreliabilities.

He has a very nice setup and obviously he likes it very much. I applaud him.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... It's all about electronics as far as I can tell.
I can get two computers with the same specs manufactured by two different companies and one is going to run faster then the other. It all comes down to circuit design and components used.

Well, obviously to some extent, that does apply to computers. And, those two computers had something different inside of it to make one faster, no? And, it is measurable, right? Yes, I still see the same words and pictures on the monitor, right? Even the spelling errors are the same.

Now the question is how do audio components respond with different topologies? That question has also been answered a few times in the past.
David Rich and Peter Aczel, 'Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent,' 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.

... The theory that a $300 receiver will sound the same as a $2000 is difficult to believe.

Yes, lots of things in life are difficult to believe
But, there is an answer to your theory as well.
How about a $300 Yam and some $15k Pass Aleph 1.2 differences? Should be huge, right? Check out post 5 by Steve Maki. 3 golden ears could not differentiate them apart.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=sunshine+stereo+yamaha+abx+nousaine&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1

... My unscientific test tells me otherwise. That's the reason I decided to post my finding. I kept reading that all receivers sound about the same. In my case, they don't.

Yes, of course your test tells you different. I wonder why that might be?
Because you had no controls and human, subconscious bias took over that day, that test. Very simple explanation for the outcome. You don't have to accept the facts, reality, nothing. No one is forcing anyone to do that. Some here just try to pass on what is known through past research. Your choice to accept it, reject it, look into it, whatever you want to do with the info.

... My understanding is that the Mcintosh uses an Analog board to process the stereo audio signal....not sure that is a contributing factor.
What a great hobby this is.

If that is the case, the audible differences would be reflected in the specs.

 

[PENG]

let me ask a question and I'm sure I'll get slammed for this. but if say BMW and Inifiniti(I sell both so i love both) take the same basic components suspension and engine and they engineer them pretty close and use similar building techniques.. why is there such a difference in the drive from the two companies. Why is there such a difference in horsepower rating from the two yet not so much a speed difference.

I can't see how anyone would slam you for just asking a few questions.

Regarding your question about the BMW and Infiniti, I would think that they design their products to drive/perform the way they intended them to do. The odds for their goals to be exactly the same (perhaps similar)are not that great. In fact most BMW are rear wheel drives that don't behave the same as front or all wheel drive systems. The horsepower question was nicely answered by WmAx so I am going to leave that alone.

On the other hand, reputable hi fi audio component manufacturers all strive to do their best in designing and producing preamp and amps that will amplify the input signal faithfully without introducting audible distortions. The fact is, it is no longer that difficult to build such products. The more expensive products typically get you more power, ability to drive difficult loads, features, better reliability, looks and customer supports.

 

[Alex2507]

allEars does have a really nice system. He and chris357 certainly are entitled to their opinions. I think we should bring them around gently as we seem to be doing already. Now you two hold still and look into the flashy light thingy.

These discussions usually degenerate with one side demanding proof and the other side saying 'no'. But there is documentation covering times that the 'wrong' p) side didn't say 'no'. Here's a thread that another subjectivist with nice gear started. Understand that we believe 'our' side of the argument needs to be presented in order to maintain the 'Pursuing the Truth' thing.

For the benefit of the subjectivist POV didn't the SOTU thing in FL have some guy talk about how great tubes were in science speak. Something about the distortion all happening within certain harmonics that people liked? I'm out of my league with all that and it doesn't matter much to me because I can't afford tubes anyway so ...

Personally I just want to know about the turntable. My wife spotted it and said it was a bute ... the wood slab look looks cool. What's going on there?

 

[PENG]

allEars does have a really nice system. He and chris357 certainly are entitled to their opinions. I think we should bring them around gently as we seem to be doing already. Now you two hold still and look into the flashy light thingy.

These discussions usually degenerate with one side demanding proof and the other side saying 'no'. But there is documentation covering times that the 'wrong' p) side didn't say 'no'. Here's a thread that another subjectivist with nice gear started. Understand that we believe 'our' side of the argument needs to be presented in order to maintain the 'Pursuing the Truth' thing.

For the benefit of the subjectivist POV didn't the SOTU thing in FL have some guy talk about how great tubes were in science speak. Something about the distortion all happening within certain harmonics that people liked? I'm out of my league with all that and it doesn't matter much to me because I can't afford tubes anyway so ...

Personally I just want to know about the turntable. My wife spotted it and said it was a bute ... the wood slab look looks cool. What's going on there?

May be someone should start a thread to allow for such debates and presentation of supporting facts. If such a thread becomes a sticky, there is an outside chance we could avoid such never ending discussions (degenerating or not)popping up in various threads. Or may be there is a stick on this sort of topic already? I didn't check.

 

[cfrizz]

I'm sorry.... but the only possible way a true audible difference was present, is if either (1) one of the compared items was malfunctioning [or] (2) one of the compared items was intentionally changing/coloring the sound - either by built in coloration or an over-looked sound setting.

In most cases, where everything is operating correctly and no coloration is present, people still PERCEIVE differences from psychological factors. Not even I am immune (no one is). But when you switch to a blinded scenario with levels matched -- those 'obvious' differences usually disappear and you can't tell the difference (IME and based on countless other examples). Also, I will presume the amps were not being clipped in either scenario due to speaker loading. This is also a factor.

BTW, I used to have McIntosh gear. It's very pretty.

Today I use professional Yamaha amplifiers and a Yamaha RX-V2600 as my pre-amp. I can practically guarantee you that only the tiniest minority of the best audiophile systems can compare to my main system - and anyone that has auditioned my system will agree - my point being other than cosmetics or pride of ownership; there is no purpose in buying over-priced audiophile electronics. The REAL differences are found in the speakers and room acoustics; the two components that I definitely go all out on.

-Chris

You are the epitome of the example of the saying if you have nothing good to say, say nothing at all. This is one of the rudest, useless, disrespectful. comments I have ever read.

Who the hell are you to dis someone elses system, just because you think they spent too much money on it? It wasn't your money spent, it's not your ears hearing what he is hearing. As long as he is enjoying what he got that is all that's important.

Either say congratulation & enjoy, or just shut the hell up & ignore the thread!

Unfrickin believable!

 

[Wafflesomd]

You are the epitome of the example of the saying if you have nothing good to say, say nothing at all. This is one of the rudest, useless, disrespectful. comments I have ever read.

Who the hell are you to dis someone elses system, just because you think they spent too much money on it? It wasn't your money spent, it's not your ears hearing what he is hearing. As long as he is enjoying what he got that is all that's important.

Either say congratulation & enjoy, or just shut the hell up & ignore the thread!

Unfrickin believable!

YA! Screw science!

I don't recall him dissing anything in his system. You didn't even read what he said. Maybe you should stay out of the thread.

 

[Alex2507]

This is one of the rudest, useless, disrespectful. comments I have ever read.

Nothing I have posted even comes close ?!?

You gonna be alright?

Edit: Back to the turntable!

 

[cfrizz]

YA! Screw science!

I don't recall him dissing anything in his system. You didn't even read what he said. Maybe you should stay out of the thread.

“…people still PERCEIVE differences from psychological factors.”

Translation: It’s all in his head i.e. he’s crazy.)

“…my point being other than cosmetics or pride of ownership; there is no purpose in buying over-priced audiophile electronics.”

Translation: It looks real good but you spent too much money on it you got suckered by a “big name”

I do consider this a slam. He either has an ax to grind with companies that produce high cost gear, or he’s jealous because he wants to & can’t spend the money he wants on his system.

What was the purpose of posting any of this? Does he think AllEars is going to now sell all his gear to buy something cheaper so that he conforms to what WmAx thinks is an acceptable system? Or does he think he’s educating AllEars & who ever else might be reading this thread to think & believe like him?

Again, if you don’t agree with what someone else has purchased for themselves, then just ignore the thread. But to come in on someone’s thread to subtly put it or the poster of said thread down all under the guise of posting YOUR experience for “educational purposes is just plain rude.

 

[lsiberian]

“…people still PERCEIVE differences from psychological factors.”

Translation: It’s all in his head i.e. he’s crazy.)

“…my point being other than cosmetics or pride of ownership; there is no purpose in buying over-priced audiophile electronics.”

Translation: It looks real good but you spent too much money on it you got suckered by a “big name”

I do consider this a slam. He either has an ax to grind with companies that produce high cost gear, or he’s jealous because he wants to & can’t spend the money he wants on his system.

What was the purpose of posting any of this? Does he think AllEars is going to now sell all his gear to buy something cheaper so that he conforms to what WmAx thinks is an acceptable system? Or does he think he’s educating AllEars & who ever else might be reading this thread to think & believe like him?

Again, if you don’t agree with what someone else has purchased for themselves, then just ignore the thread. But to come in on someone’s thread to subtly put it or the poster of said thread down all under the guise of posting YOUR experience for “educational purposes is just plain rude.

Come on folks lets let the OP enjoy their new system and drop the discussion on amp audibility. Nice setup. I do suggest you add a 2nd speaker along with Alex.

 

[PENG]

Again, if you don’t agree with what someone else has purchased for themselves, then just ignore the thread. But to come in on someone’s thread to subtly put it or the poster of said thread down all under the guise of posting YOUR experience for “educational purposes is just plain rude.

I respect your opinion. Seriously I do, whether you care or not; and I agree (at least partially) to some of your points but I see nothing rude about WmAx's posts. I also do find some of his posts educational. The irony is that he is the only one getting "slammed". He is also right about one thing, some people don't mind paying more for gear that looks and feels good even if they don't sound any better. I am one of those people. Hopefully you don't think I am rude and crazy too.....I am shaking so much I am going to miss the submit reply button.. .

 

[PENG]

Come on folks lets let the OP enjoy their new system and drop the discussion on amp audibility. Nice setup. I do suggest you add a 2nd speaker along with Alex.

I second that but I still think someone should start a thread dedicated to the "audibility" thing, turn it into a sticky so people can stick to that thread and no others.

 

[cfrizz]

I respect your opinion. Seriously I do, whether you care or not; and I agree (at least partially) to some of your points but I see nothing rude about WmAx's posts. I also do find some of his posts educational. The irony is that he is the only one getting "slammed". He is also right about one thing, some people don't mind paying more for gear that looks and feels good even if they don't sound any better. I am one of those people. Hopefully you don't think I am rude and crazy too.....I am shaking so much I am going to miss the submit reply button.. .

relax Peng I respect your opinions as well. And you always make them without being rude or condescending which I and others truly apprciate!

BTW, to AllEars, nice looking system you have put together, Enjoy it!

 

[Wafflesomd]

What was the purpose of posting any of this? Does he think AllEars is going to now sell all his gear to buy something cheaper so that he conforms to what WmAx thinks is an acceptable system?

Honestly, I would. If I could save money and still achieve the same results, it's only logical.

He never implied that, not once. Let me give you the run down on what Wmax is trying to say.

The owner claims to hear an audible difference between two pieces of equipment. Quantifiable measurements may suggest that there is no change in the perceived sound.

I personally would much rather trust proven physics than my own ears. Math has a better track record than my ears...

 

[lsiberian]

Honestly, I would. If I could save money and still achieve the same results, it's only logical.

He never implied that, not once. Let me give you the run down on what Wmax is trying to say.

The owner claims to hear an audible difference between two pieces of equipment. Quantifiable measurements may suggest that there is no change in the perceived sound.

I personally would much rather trust proven physics than my own ears. Math has a better track record than my ears...

Yeah but that amp will last forever I bet. They use very high quality electronics and have extremely good QA. Great engineering. A Rolex is great watch. Just ask Adam.

 

[Alex2507]

Yeah but that amp will last forever I bet.

uh ... it's a pre amp but I just love busting aggots so thanks.

Here's a thread that's an interesting enough read but the pic's in post #1 are pretty cool.

Since Adam and Strube bent over backwards showing me how to do that embed trick I have been having a blast. Cool, isn't it?

 

[allEars]

allEars does have a really nice system. He and chris357 certainly are entitled to their opinions. I think we should bring them around gently as we seem to be doing already. Now you two hold still and look into the flashy light thingy.

These discussions usually degenerate with one side demanding proof and the other side saying 'no'. But there is documentation covering times that the 'wrong' p) side didn't say 'no'. Here's a thread that another subjectivist with nice gear started. Understand that we believe 'our' side of the argument needs to be presented in order to maintain the 'Pursuing the Truth' thing.

For the benefit of the subjectivist POV didn't the SOTU thing in FL have some guy talk about how great tubes were in science speak. Something about the distortion all happening within certain harmonics that people liked? I'm out of my league with all that and it doesn't matter much to me because I can't afford tubes anyway so ...

Personally I just want to know about the turntable. My wife spotted it and said it was a bute ... the wood slab look looks cool. What's going on there?

Wow, I just got off the plane (5 hours flight) to find this thread 4 pages long. thank you Alex2507 for yor comments. The turntable is the new Pro-ject. The store didn't really wanted to sell it as it was the only one they had but I insisted and still got 10% off the maked price. Vinyl has also been a great experience; maybe it's just my mind playing tricks on me

Chris, thank you for your comments. I know there is a difference but everybody is entitled to their opinion. I will be selling the mcintosh and buying a second speaker

 

[WmAx]

I do consider this a slam. He either has an ax to grind with companies that produce high cost gear,

Uhm, nope.

or he’s jealous because he wants to & can’t spend the money he wants on his system.

Hahahahaha...... uhm... nope. I can assure you my main dedicated system's performance exceeds the ability to realistically reproduce recordings as compared to the vast majority of audiophile systems regardless of cost. I have nothing to be jealous of in so far as audio systems are concerned. Even my computer system will exceed even a great deal of audiophile systems. Besides that... I came from using 'audiophile' hardware (which included several McIntosh amps, a Stereophile recommended audiophile pre-amp, etc/) to far higher performance for the price hardware from the pro sector, and did not give up one single bit of SQ in the process. In fact, in adding the powerful DCX2496 processor, it's far more capable to optimize SQ as compared to say a common audiophile set up. And using a RX-V2600 for a pre-amp, results in a very powerful pre-amp with absolute transparent pre-amplification (with DSP effects switched off, of course) with very powerful sound field effects available upon need(which I never need).

I 'was' one of these audiophiles some time ago, but I learned what really mattered for SQ, and I am only trying to share what I have learned from my mistakes with others.

-Chris

 

[Wafflesomd]

What was the purpose of posting any of this? Does he think AllEars is going to now sell all his gear to buy something

In light of recent events, I'd be doing a disservice if I didn't point out the irony here.