Sterophile new approach to cable measurements

[jinjuku]

Check it out: Cable manufacturers Nordost and Vertex AQ had good reason to present their joint seminar, "New Approach to Audio Measurement: Why Cables Really Matter,

 

[highfigh]

If manufacturers weren't involved, I'd see a bit more validity in this. Also, when reducing noise, shouldn't the units be dB, not %? 15% less noise? C'mon! Let's use the correct units and terminology!

I'm all for sending clean, filtered AC to my equipment but saying that a power cord will reduce timing errors by 36%? really? No charts or graphs, so they want us to just accept these as fact?

Nice try.

I'd like to see cables tested for how well they reproduce waveforms, the noise rejection and with multiple signals passing through, then each signal is isolated to see how faithful it remains to the original, not some ad that talks about how 'chocolaty' it sounds.

 

[JerryLove]

has produced an entirely new method for measuring the audible effects of components on sound.

Because "listening to the results" tests weren't going their way.

Simply changing from a stock power cord to a well-made audiophile cord resulted in a 36% reduction in timing errors between the original WAV file and the same file burned on to a CD and played back by a typical high-quality player

I cannot call BS loudly enough.

And what's sad is that it's so darn simple to disprove.

A CD player is (normally) 100% accurate. It makes exactly ZERO mistakes.

There may have been a time in audio CD players that wasn't true, but it's always been true for computer CD players, and the audio gear caught up more than a decade ago.

Don't believe me? Try installing a program from a CD-ROM. A single wrong bit will cause a failure.

Can't we get them arrested for such false claims or something?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Check it out:

Interesting how they name drop him in there
military electronic-engineering consultant Gareth Humphrey Jones,

How is he qualified?

 

[no. 5]

Because "listening to the results" tests weren't going their way.

"Stop looking at the oscilloscope and just listen!"

"I listened to it, and it sounded the same"

"Oh, well, look at this new way of measuring; 36% reduction in timing errors!"

 

[gene]

What a load of crap. As if engineers don't know how to measure a piece of copper. Now all of the sudden, snake oil, I mean exotic cable vendors have a groundbreaking new way to truly measure audible differences. Note that the people developing this so called "new test method" are NOT even electricians let alone degreed Electrical Engineers. This is the only industry where this nonsense around wire is allowed to flourish.

 

[jinjuku]

Because "listening to the results" tests weren't going their way.

I cannot call BS loudly enough.

And what's sad is that it's so darn simple to disprove.

A CD player is (normally) 100% accurate. It makes exactly ZERO mistakes.

There may have been a time in audio CD players that wasn't true, but it's always been true for computer CD players, and the audio gear caught up more than a decade ago.

Don't believe me? Try installing a program from a CD-ROM. A single wrong bit will cause a failure.

Can't we get them arrested for such false claims or something?

Actually a computer CD ROM does have a sampling rate, if something gets lost in transmission it will reread and resend. Now if the CD is damaged then you aren't getting by that.

 

[jinjuku]

What a load of crap. As if engineers don't know how to measure a piece of copper. Now all of the sudden, snake oil, I mean exotic cable vendors have a groundbreaking new way to truly measure audible differences. Note that the people developing this so called "new test method" are NOT even electricians let alone degreed Electrical Engineers. This is the only industry where this nonsense around wire is allowed to flourish.

I will give them a look once their methodology is submitted to a recognized board of EE's and then peer reviewed and their results independently reproduced and verified.

I am not holding my breath.

 

[gene]

If these guys would just admit that its nothing more than jewelry to give you a warm fuzzy feeling about your audio equipment, they would do just fine. People don't buy a Rolex b/c its more "accurate" as telling time than a Casio.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

What a load of crap. As if engineers don't know how to measure a piece of copper. Now all of the sudden, snake oil, I mean exotic cable vendors have a groundbreaking new way to truly measure audible differences. Note that the people developing this so called "new test method" are NOT even electricians let alone degreed Electrical Engineers. This is the only industry where this nonsense around wire is allowed to flourish.

Gene,

You should issue a formal challenge to these buffoons and get some national attention. Setup blind and electrical test with yourself and some other engineers. Get these charlatans on national a level. I am sure you could get some honest folks like BlueJeans and others to help out as well.

 

[skizzerflake]

I recall some years back (90's) when Stereophile ran a comparison between speaker wires that included a bunch of wire at $10 per inch (or whatever) and Romex, the wire that you put inside walls to bring electricity to your outlets. The Romex won. Stereophile referred to that as an "artifact" and re-wrote the rules. I guess that about says it.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Gene,

You should issue a formal challenge to these buffoons and get some national attention. Setup blind and electrical test with yourself and some other engineers. Get these charlatans on national a level. I am sure you could get some honest folks like BlueJeans and others to help out as well.

Good try but they always have an excuse not to accept.
Randi challenged the Pear cable that some writer proclaimed king of cables or something like that. Never materialized; always some excuse.

 

[JerryLove]

Actually a computer CD ROM does have a sampling rate, if something gets lost in transmission it will reread and resend. Now if the CD is damaged then you aren't getting by that.

But have you ever looked at the error rate? If you really want to have fun, drop it to 1x (audio-CD speed) and see how accurate it becomes on first read.

But your correction is well noted. There is an error-correction mechanism in modern CD gear, and your average DVD reader can read CDs accurately at >40x speed.

So a valid detail to point out, but the result on disproving their claim remains the same.

 

[highfigh]

But have you ever looked at the error rate? If you really want to have fun, drop it to 1x (audio-CD speed) and see how accurate it becomes on first read.

But your correction is well noted. There is an error-correction mechanism in modern CD gear, and your average DVD reader can read CDs accurately at >40x speed.

So a valid detail to point out, but the result on disproving their claim remains the same.

ALL CD gear has always had error correction. When the Sony players first came out, we would put a wedge of electrical tape over the bottom with the point at the middle and on some, it tracked fine but others had a big problem with it. We cut it to no special angle WRT linear velocity. High speed/high volume manufacturing makes it impossible to catch all defective units before they leave, so error correction was a good way to minimize returns and not cause the format to die an early death. The CD format is called 16 bit but two are parity bits, used for error correction.

Considering how some of the earliest players skipped, it's amazing that 40X works at all.

 

[jneutron]

I will give them a look once their methodology is submitted to a recognized board of EE's and then peer reviewed and their results independently reproduced and verified.

I am not holding my breath.

Agreed. And, I will not simply accept "peer review" by selection of peer by the source.. That is not the process.

It is very possible for the selection of line cord, power bar, and IC's to affect the bit error rate of a CD if the DAC is external. (it is even possible if it's internal, but less likely.) It is also very possible that the "high end" player they chose is susceptible to ground loop induction which may cause errors via ground bounce or induced voltages.

To correctly assess this "heap-o-stuff" will require solid measurements on solid equipment using good methodology, and all of the details must be provided so that others may verify through independent means.

The content provided may indeed have some basis in fact, but as it stands, it is meaningless. Ad hype is all that is visible so far, I need more.

"Show me the money". Or, get off the bowl.

Cheers, John

 

[gene]

Using my Audio Precision APx585 HDMI Audio Analyzer, I can do what is called a Bit Error Rate (BER) test. If you're transmitting PCM via HDMI, toslink or Coax and run this test, it will give you a BER in terms of %

Every modern Blu-ray, DVD, CD player I've ever tested has always achieved a 0% BER.

There is nothing magical about this. If you're running analog, you simply test SNR, Bandwidth, and distortion. Again this can be done in about 2 minutes using an Audio Analyzer. I've yet to come across an interconnect being a roadblock for measuring good performance in component gear.

The test the snake oil vendors have conjured up with Stereopile is nothing more than a marketing ploy to gain audiophiles attentions and have it discussed on more widely read websites like Audioholics and AVS Forum. My hats off to them I suppose, they found a clever way to garner some extra traffic.

 

[highfigh]

Using my Audio Precision APx585 HDMI Audio Analyzer, I can do what is called a Bit Error Rate (BER) test. If you're transmitting PCM via HDMI, toslink or Coax and run this test, it will give you a BER in terms of %

Every modern Blu-ray, DVD, CD player I've ever tested has always achieved a 0% BER.

There is nothing magical about this. If you're running analog, you simply test SNR, Bandwidth, and distortion. Again this can be done in about 2 minutes using an Audio Analyzer. I've yet to come across an interconnect being a roadblock for measuring good performance in component gear.

The test the snake oil vendors have conjured up with Stereopile is nothing more than a marketing ploy to gain audiophiles attentions and have it discussed on more widely read websites like Audioholics and AVS Forum. My hats off to them I suppose, they found a clever way to garner some extra traffic.

So, is it safe to conclude that their cables are so good that they intentionally create bit errors and correct them?

Well, they didn't come up with "If you can't dazzle them with logic, baffle them with BS" for nothing.

 

[Matt34]

There is nothing magical about this. If you're running analog, you simply test SNR, Bandwidth, and distortion. Again this can be done in about 2 minutes using an Audio Analyzer. I've yet to come across an interconnect being a roadblock for measuring good performance in component gear.

The test the snake oil vendors have conjured up with Stereopile is nothing more than a marketing ploy to gain audiophiles attentions and have it discussed on more widely read websites like Audioholics and AVS Forum. My hats off to them I suppose, they found a clever way to garner some extra traffic.

Ah, but according to "them" we are just the non-believers that don't trust our ears.

 

[jneutron]

Using my Audio Precision APx585 HDMI Audio Analyzer, I can do what is called a Bit Error Rate (BER) test. If you're transmitting PCM via HDMI, toslink or Coax and run this test, it will give you a BER in terms of %

That would explain the percentage numbers that had been quoted within the stereophile summary article. Another had questioned the use of percentage drop vs dB drop, you clear that up.

Every modern Blu-ray, DVD, CD player I've ever tested has always achieved a 0% BER.

Through HDMI,, yes? Two points...first, were they discussing HDMI? Second, have you ever tested the equipment within the list that was provided showing the test protocol, setup, and methodology?? (pffft, what list?)

There is nothing magical about this.

Agreed.

If you're running analog, you simply test SNR, Bandwidth, and distortion. Again this can be done in about 2 minutes using an Audio Analyzer.

It would seem that they were not discussing analog, given the statements of "bit errors". I conclude from that, that they must have been using an external DAC. I also conclude from the discussion, that they have ground loop issues with their special player and special DAC which contributed to their system's inability to correctly transfer digital data without error.

As I stated, it's impossible to draw any reasonable conclusions or understandings when no details are provided. Clearly the purveyors of this information believe that presenting content in this fashion will satisfy the number crunching geeks (like me). BZZZZT. wrong..

I've yet to come across an interconnect being a roadblock for measuring good performance in component gear.

I have. Hum intrusion, noise intrusion, common occurrence. But clearly explainable using Faraday's law of induction...as you stated, it ain't magic.

The test the snake oil vendors have conjured up with Stereopile....snip

Umm, I had the opinion that the vendors did their stuff, presented such, and some guy from stereophile wrote about it. Was Stereophile somehow involved? If so, I missed that point.

is nothing more than a marketing ploy to gain audiophiles attentions and have it discussed on more widely read websites like Audioholics and AVS Forum. My hats off to them I suppose, they found a clever way to garner some extra traffic.

Who was it that said "there is no such thing as bad publicity?

Cheers, John

 

[jneutron]

So, is it safe to conclude that their cables are so good that they intentionally create bit errors and correct them?

No. But it is safe to conclude that the equipment they chose is incapable of transferring digital information without error in "whatever" test setup they used.

Beyond that, all we can do is guess.

My guess is that the test setup they used may be very valuable.....for testing bit error rates of equipment with ground loop issues with an eye towards fixing the equipment..to make it impervious to choice of interconnect or power cord.

Cheers, John