Political Platform to run on...

Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Depends on why you're increasing it. Public education is currently increasing our national debt, should we do away with that? Things are not as black and white as you seem to think they are.
Public education is a big money waster.
http://books.google.com/books?id=rqmdR6Xrgq8C&pg=PT169&lpg=PT169&dq=The+U.S.A.+is+globally+ranked+17+&+18th+in+math+and+science+scores&source=bl&ots=9XZkISWanL&sig=RFFJYZXaT-VEsPOTVFrBepQ32ZU&hl=en&ei=AO6kSq6XHMbDlAeqwJWQBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Even though we spend the most money per pupil; the U.S.A. is globally ranked near the bottom in math and science scores.
 
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M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Schools and public education is a complex subject with many variables.

And simply throwing money at it won't solve the problem.

It takes commitment, and not just on the teachers part. No matter how good the teacher, no matter how much they spend in books and supplies, if the kids don't want to learn, then it's all for naught.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.

And, a lot has to be dropped right at their parent's feet.

I was raised by average working class people who entered adulthood just as the first depression got underway. They both had an "adequate" education for that time and did whatever had to be done to survive. Fortunately, college degrees weren't required for everything then. Once one found a job, a good attitude, willingness to follow instructions, show up on time and put in a good day's work would pretty much guarantee you would still be there tomorrow.

And, like most people of that era, they wanted better for their kids. Even though I went to a public school, they did what they could to see I did well in school. When it got to be beyond what their schooling, they hired local tutors if I needed a bit of extra help. And, mom was always active in the school and knew what I was doing and where I was weak. I managed to get out with decent grades and, for a long time, did quite well.

Public schools today aren't as bad as they are made out to be. Kids can still learn a lot if they choose to. If the parents don't care, then the kids don't care.

If money is an issue, community colleges can provide a good foothold into higher education if they can't afford one of the high-zoot schools, and there's a lot of scholarships available to some (another subject). Likewise, state colleges are still a better bargain than other schools.

Here in Joisey, we ha something called "Abbott Districts", which are generally inner city schools where teachers beat their heads against the wall trying to teach kids, but these kids simply refuse to learn. The state, thanks to political pressures, continues to dump more and more money into these districts and puts more and more pressure on the teachers, but nothing ever happens. ..and nobody can say exactly where this money goes.

And don't even get me started on the concept of "social promotion". That's one of the biggest mistakes the educational system ever initiated, even covertly.

I do notice that things are starting to even out as far as racial stats go, but does this mean that the average is being lowered, or that everyone else is getting better?

And I believe this can be traced directly back to the families, their beliefs and how they raise their kids.

And, why is it that Asians and Orientals generally have much, much higher educational achievement scores than others who have had the same opportunities? Cold it be because they apply stronger postitve values in their kid's study habits?

Somehow, I think many have abandoned the idea of wanting more for their kids and forcing them to work for it. They are satisfied just having them "get by".

Note: I don't think this applies to private schools. It seems that when one pays for their kid's education out of their own pocket, they tend to make dang sure the kid shows someresults.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Depends on why you're increasing it. Public education is currently increasing our national debt, should we do away with that? Things are not as black and white as you seem to think they are.
The reason why it is increasing the debt is the problem. Throwing money at failing programs is not a way to improve things, nor does it justify adding to the national debt.

The system needs to be gone over and start holding individual school district accountable for their funds. Do away with public funds used for athletics until the math, science & reading reaches a specific level, etc. Hold teachers accountable for actually improving their students grades as well.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
The reason why it is increasing the debt is the problem. Throwing money at failing programs is not a way to improve things, nor does it justify adding to the national debt.

The system needs to be gone over and start holding individual school district accountable for their funds. Do away with public funds used for athletics until the math, science & reading reaches a specific level, etc. Hold teachers accountable for actually improving their students grades as well.
Just for the information of all...the ten cities with the lowest high school graduation rates all come in at UNDER 33%. The last ranking I saw had Cleveland and Milwaukie heading the list with barely 25% graduating. Think about how futile that is. Amazing. :(

Something needs to done...desparately. I wish I knew what it was.
 
N

NicolasKL

Full Audioholic
The reason why it is increasing the debt is the problem. Throwing money at failing programs is not a way to improve things, nor does it justify adding to the national debt.

The system needs to be gone over and start holding individual school district accountable for their funds. Do away with public funds used for athletics until the math, science & reading reaches a specific level, etc. Hold teachers accountable for actually improving their students grades as well.
So, we should do away with public education? We're spending money on it, therefore it's adding to the national debt. Adding to national debt = bad, so......

Like I said, it's not black and white. You think taking away public funds for athletics is a good idea, I think it's a horrible idea. Who's right? Which policy "acts in the best interests of the citizens?"
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
So, we should do away with public education? We're spending money on it, therefore it's adding to the national debt. Adding to national debt = bad, so......

Like I said, it's not black and white. You think taking away public funds for athletics is a good idea, I think it's a horrible idea. Who's right? Which policy "acts in the best interests of the citizens?"
I see many schools with fabulous athletics facilities & poor graduation rates/testing scores. What is more important?? Education needs to take precedence at a SCHOOL prior to athletics.
 
J

just listening

Audioholic
I see many schools with fabulous athletics facilities & poor graduation rates/testing scores. What is more important?? Education needs to take precedence at a SCHOOL prior to athletics.
Education ABSOLUTELY should come first. But the idea of stopping athletics punishes all students in a particular school. What about all the kids who do keep their grades up, work hard, should they be limited in their athletic pursuits?

Holding students to academic standards and blocking those who fail to earn at least a "C" in every class from participating in sports like when I was in school 30+ years ago. Demanding individual effort and responsibility of students is key.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
So, we should do away with public education? We're spending money on it, therefore it's adding to the national debt. Adding to national debt = bad, so......

Like I said, it's not black and white. You think taking away public funds for athletics is a good idea, I think it's a horrible idea. Who's right? Which policy "acts in the best interests of the citizens?"
Another example of school waste: $8.6 Billion.

In NJ we had something called The School Construction Corp.
It was supposedly formed to build and repair schools. In reality they siphoned off money to the education lobby, trade union lobby, and many phantom employees; all getting huge bonuses.

Beyond the overstuffed payroll, there were questions of land acquisition. Sites would be scouted by the School Construction Corp and secretly bought cheaply by shell entities. These 'straw' entities would re-sell the land to the State's SCC for many, many times what they originally paid, and much more than it was worth. Because they were later found to be environmentally contaminated, they required substantial money for clean up.

Too much to type here. It's all in a book called 'The Soprano State' New Jersey's Culture of corruption
I'll bet many states are like NJ. :(
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Do away with public funds used for athletics until the math, science & reading reaches a specific level, etc. Hold teachers accountable for actually improving their students grades as well.
You mean competitive athletics or PhyEd class? I can't agree if you mean PhyEd. Look around- how many fat kids over 300 pounds did we have before 1990? Even WRT competitive sports, they're good for school spirit and besides, if that was eliminated, professional sports wouldn't be all-pervasive once the lousy athletes showed up.

As far as holding teachers accountable, as much as I think they should be, if you have a great teacher with a class full of humps who'd rather be anywhere else but in school, it wouldn't be fair to the teacher. I think it's about time the kids got a wake up call about how bleak their future will be if they don't pull their heads out of their keesters. Maybe htey should be required to work one day a week at the rescue mission and talk with some of those who are really in bad shape. Not that all of the people in that position were bad students, but if they get the message that jobs like that will be the norm, instead of the exception, they'll think about not giving up.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
You mean competitive athletics or PhyEd class? I can't agree if you mean PhyEd. Look around- how many fat kids over 300 pounds did we have before 1990? Even WRT competitive sports, they're good for school spirit and besides, if that was eliminated, professional sports wouldn't be all-pervasive once the lousy athletes showed up.

As far as holding teachers accountable, as much as I think they should be, if you have a great teacher with a class full of humps who'd rather be anywhere else but in school, it wouldn't be fair to the teacher. I think it's about time the kids got a wake up call about how bleak their future will be if they don't pull their heads out of their keesters. Maybe they should be required to work one day a week at the rescue mission and talk with some of those who are really in bad shape. Not that all of the people in that position were bad students, but if they get the message that jobs like that will be the norm, instead of the exception, they'll think about not giving up.
Phys Ed is must. I meant competitive inter-school athletics.

I hear you about the students. Parenting is a huge part of it. Giving teacher's some authority back in the classroom would be quite beneficial as well.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

The school/job conundrum gets more complicated the more you pull at that string. Back in “the day”, say when I graduated high school in the summer of love, you could follow either of basically three career paths:

1) Simply get a job. No guarantees, but factories and machine shops were in full swing and generally unionized and, if they weren’t unionized, you could possibly learn a trade and move on “up the line” to a management job if you showed the right stuff.

2) Continue on to college and perhaps grad school, learn a profession. At that time a BS degree actually meant something. This was also great in that you could avoid the draft while in school

3) Get an apprenticeship and learn a trade such as electrician, plumber, mason, builder and related trades. If you were good, these could set you up for life.

Today, the first option is pretty dead. Factories are closing left and right and what’s not closed is being outsourced to other countries.

With the second option, you can pretty much count on going for a Masters if you want to be taken seriously and, even then, a lot has to do with what field of study you chose, and what you started in may not be as in demand when you get it. IMNSHO, the medical profession seems to be the best. I used to think teaching was a good shot but, from what I’m hearing, it may not be all it used to be, at least here in Jersey.

The third option is still valid but, due to the downturn in the housing market, not quite as lucrative as they once were, but they will be again. As usual, doing a good job and getting a license is pretty much a guarantee you’ll always be able to put food on the table somehow.

Traditionally schools prepared kids for these and they could look forward to these if they wanted to.

Nowadays, with option one gone and option two too expensive, and too much of a commitment for most, a lot of kid bypass this.

This leaves the trades. This looks like a lot of hard work (it is) but since the schools don’t really instill a work ethic by implementing “social promotion”, many don’t want to bother with it.

Here in the big cities of Joisey, the kids can look out their windows and see drop-outs who are affiliated with the major gangs selling drugs and, until they wind up in jail, making more money in a few weeks than many people make in a year. And, when they DO get caught, juveniles get a slap on the wrist and are out doing it again in a matter of days or weeks. And, even as adults, the “justice” system doesn’t really “rehabilitate” them so much as send them to school to share tricks with other practitioners of the trade. This cycle gets repeated ad infinitum until the perp gets shot or dies of old age, generally wreaking violence in between the times they get caught.

Until real opportunities exist for kids, they will be attracted to those “easy” jobs they see. And, until the “easy” jobs they see on the street are made unattractive to the young, they really have no incentive to go to school.

If this guy running the country really, really wants to make a difference, he'll somehow find a way to open up some "real" job opportunities (not just pushing fries) for our citizens, both young and old, that offer a living wage. Outsourcing manufacturing jobs and call center, programming, help desk, and other jobs that lend themselves well to T1 lines and VOIP systems while letting illegals and soliciting H1-B workers is not the answer.

Maybe, just maybe, seeing that going to school might really pay off for the average guy who is willing to give it a shot might be incentive for them to actually learn somethng. After all, it's hard to really condemn them if they see that, for many, there's really no place to go when they get out.

So, which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
 
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Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Some very well-thought-out statements here, and good debate. I have only one thing to add.



[Yeah, I'm no good at political threads. :)]
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Some very well-thought-out statements here, and good debate. I have only one thing to add.

Yeah, I'm no good at political threads.
If that was directed at me, please elaborate.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
If that was directed at me, please elaborate.
Not at all, Mark! Sorry if it came across wrong. Just a funny picture that I was waiting to slip into a political thread.

Honestly, it wasn't directed at you or anyone.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
gotcha.

I can always appreciate a funny picture, but timing is everything. :eek:
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
In my field of engineering, a Masters degree isn't required to be taken seriously. Not if you're working for an engineering firm, anyway. It's more about proving your skills on the job than proving that you can get another piece of paper. A graduate degree isn't going to hurt someone, but it isn't required to get an invitation to the party. If you want to work independently or head up a firm, then a graduate degree and PE is important.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
I wonder what it is about political threads that attracts those who dislike political threads. ;)
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
I wonder what it is about political threads that attracts those who dislike political threads. ;)
Hey, if you're going to come to the boring thread, then be prepared for the payback. :D

Besides, I don't dislike them at all. I said that I'm not good at them...not that I don't like them.
 

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