PLEASE HELP - 2 audiophile systems!!

[synergy83]

First of all, thanks to everyone who contributes on this site - the posts that I have been reading to are tremendously helpful! As a relative newcomer to more premium home audio (but with some experience in car audio), I have truly received my education here...but could use a little help and experienced advice in trying to make the final decisions (especially with little audition opportunities)!

Here is my situation: I recently moved to a new apartment and need to build 2 new systems - 1 for my living room and another for the bedroom. I am basically starting from scratch as I am selling my existing Polk speakers to a friend. I would like to achieve audiophile results on a somewhat reasonable budget.

First, details for the living room:
- Approx. 12' x 17' (viewing/listening distance approx. 10-11')
- Anticipated use of 50% music, 25% cable, 25% movies
- Prefer sound quality over SPL
- Existing sources: PS3, AppleTV
- 5.1 system likely to be powered by Marantz 6003 or 5004, although nothing purchased yet so feel free to advise otherwise
- Would like 2 floorstandings, strong center and 2 decent surrounds plus 1 sub
- Ideal budget: $1,500 for the 5 speakers + $500 for the sub, but I can be flexible to upgrade if the benefit is compelling

#1 - Living room speakers: From what I have been reading, it looks like some of my best options for the speaker set would be:
- Aperion Intimus 5T / 5C / 5B
- Axiom M60 / VP150 / M2
- Paradigm Monitor 7 / CC-290 / ADP-190 (or Studio 60 if I can find them cheap)
- New PSB Image series

#2 - Living room sub: My current selection of subs includes (again, prefer sound quality and really needs to be less than 15" wide max, but the smaller the better):
- SVS PB-10NSD
- Velodyne DEQ-8R / DEQ-10R
- Velodyne Optimum-8
- Velodyne MiniVee
- Aperion Bravus 8D / 10D
- Sunfire HRS-8 / HRS-10
- Epik Vanquish
Anything else I should consider in the $500-$700 range? I like the remote feature on the Velodynes but I have a feeling it may be more gimmicky than just opting for really good sound...thoughts?

Now to the bedroom, here are my thoughts:
- Approx. 11' x 13' (viewing/listening distance approx. 9-10')
- Anticipated use of 50% music, 50% cable (basically no movies)
- Prefer sound quality over SPL
- Leaning towards a stereo setup - receiver + 2 bookshelf speakers, as I don't have room for floorstandings
- No room for a sub, so need to have bookshelves with really good bass
- Ideal budget: $500 for the 2 speakers

#3 - Bedroom speakers: I have been thinking about speakers from the same brands as above:
- Paradigm Atom, Mini Monitor
- PSB
- Axiom M2/M3
- Aperion 5B / 6B
- Usher S-520
- Possibly others that would be stronger on the lower end? (would need to roll off at less than 80hz I would think)

Any other brands I should consider?
- Ascend
- Canton
- Dynaudio
- Def Tech
- Energy
- KEF
- Monitor
- Vienna
- Revel
- Emotiva

Please share any thoughts you have on decisions #1, #2 and #3 above!

Are there any other components that I should consider for sources, amplifiers, conditioners, wiring, sound dampening, etc?

I really want to pull the trigger on this soon, so I sincerely appreciate any thoughts you guys out there might have...I am very confident you guys can lead me in the right direction!!

All the best and thanks again!

Doug

 

[the grunt]

Welcome to the forum Doug. Lots of good information you’ve posted. One additional thing that would be helpful to know is what speakers you have listened to and what did you like and dislike about them. I ask because what constitutes sound quality varies greatly between individuals. I prefer detailed (some would call bright) speakers like B&W, Focal, Axiom etc… Some people can’t stand that type of sound. So knowing what speakers you like can make it easier to narrow down you’re choices to what might sound similar.

If you haven’t gone out and listened to any speakers you should really try to do it assuming that option is available to you. If you do take a cross section of music and movies you like.

That said I think trying Aperion is an easy choice to demo at home since shipping both ways is included in their price. Axiom includes shipping to you in the price but you have to pay return shipping, the costs are linked on their product pages under the explanation of their 30 day trial. AFAIK most internet direct companies have some sort of in home trial so if we can help you narrow down the list you might want to go head to head with a couple of them.

Also don’t count out any local stores if you have any. Sometimes they will let you take speakers home to demo or buy them with the option to return (usually involves restocking fee). Before making your final choice there is no better way to decide than an in home demo over a period of time so you can give them a real workout.

Another thing to consider in both of your setups is using a bookshelf speaker as a center. Some people just can fit anything but a horizontal center speaker but if you can fit a bookshelf speaker from the same line as the mains or in the case of your bedroom setup identical to the mains you will usually get a better quality front soundstage and often the bookshelf speakers are less expensive than horizontal center speakers.

Sorry I can’t recommend a particular brand to you since I just don’t know what you like.

Cheers,
Dean

 

[synergy83]

Thanks for the insight, Dean. Much appreciated!

Unfortunately, the only speakers I have listened to out of these are the Paradigm Monitors and the PSBs. The Paradigms were definitley brighter in comparison to the PSBs which were a little flatter in my opinion. It was difficult to tell if the brightness would be too much for my liking on the Paradigms, but otherwise I preferred their energy level over the PSB.

I currently have a set of Polk Monitors as my primary speakers (the ones I am selling), which feel a bit warmer to me (but also just aren't quite as capable speakers). I think my preference would be to move towards something that is more neutral or perhaps more detailed. That said, I probably don't want to move too far down the scale when it comes to brightness.

The in-home trial on the Aperion is a good option, especially for me as I live in NYC and there are only a few high-end retailers around that are anxious to get you to pay NYC-style prices as well I will hunt around and see what else might be around here for auditioning.

I like the idea of a bookshelf as the center, but unfortunately the only space I have for the center can only accomodate a horizontal center.

Thanks again for the help - I will check back in with more updates as I have them!

Regards,
Doug

 

[AVRat]

For around $1800 shipped, you could purchase an Ascend Acoustics CMT-340/CMT-340C/HTM-200 combo with stands for front L/R and an SVS PB12-NSD. For the bedroom the CBM-170s.

 

[synergy83]

Thanks AVRat - out of curiosity, what are the key advantages (or at least differences) between the Ascends and some of the others I listed (Aperion, etc)? I will definitely look into these some more.

 

[fredk]

Lots of good advice here so far.

I'm like Dean and like a clean sound that will reveal the detail in better recorded material.

Have you compared the Monitor line to the Studio line at all? After doing this I could not go back to listening to the Monitor 7. They just didn't reveal everything on good recordings.

Another thing to consider with ID companies is finding someone local to you willing to give you an audition of their speakers. Axiom has a forum dedicated to this so you could check and/or post there. Others probably do the same.

 

[AVRat]

The Ascends are very clean and detailed and neutral in nature. Less like the PSBs and more like the Paradigm Studio 40s.

 

[the grunt]

Hi Doug, rereading your post I thought of a couple other things to mention. Unless you have your heart set on tower speakers for your mains you might consider using bookshelf speakers since you already plan to get a subwoofer. You can really save some money and/or upgrade to a better sounding speaker by moving from towers to bookshelf mains. Unless your room has a huge vaulted ceiling or something a good pair of bookshelf speakers + subwoofer will fill it with sound. However, your seating distance is about at the limit where I would use bookshelf mains but it’s something to consider if you can find someplace to demo towers against a bookshelf + main combo. Personally at that distance I would prefer towers but I though I would through the idea out there.

I noticed in your Axiom system your planning to use M2s for surrounds. If you choose Axiom I would make a point to get the QS8 surrounds (they are a phenomenal speaker) unless cost just prohibits it. Another option might be to consider Emotiva. I haven’t heard them but they got a very good review here at Audioholics and the reviewer favorably compared their ERD-1 to the QS8s.

If you do order internet direct to demo you might want to order the mains from a couple of the companies you narrow down your list to so you can compare them directly. It would be less to ship back than a full system and if you plan on mostly 2 channel music they will be your most important speaker. If you plan on mostly multi-channel music then demoing the center with the mains is a must IMO because if all 3 don’t sound the same you won’t like your front soundstage. I’m so pick about this I don’t even use a center for multi-channel music right now just using 4.1 (mains, surrounds, sub).

Fred made a good point that many internet direct companies have ways to hook people up with someone who is willing to demo their speakers. Usually you can do it in their forum but if you don’t see anything you can give them a call.

Another thing to consider is looking at the used speaker market. Economic times are hard so there are some pretty good deals out there if you’re willing to do some homework. Also many companies offer “B” stock for sale. Might help you save a little bit if you want to order direct from the company.

Cheers,
Dean

 

[lsiberian]

First of all, thanks to everyone who contributes on this site - the posts that I have been reading to are tremendously helpful! As a relative newcomer to more premium home audio (but with some experience in car audio), I have truly received my education here...but could use a little help and experienced advice in trying to make the final decisions (especially with little audition opportunities)!

Here is my situation: I recently moved to a new apartment and need to build 2 new systems - 1 for my living room and another for the bedroom. I am basically starting from scratch as I am selling my existing Polk speakers to a friend. I would like to achieve audiophile results on a somewhat reasonable budget.

First, details for the living room:
- Approx. 12' x 17' (viewing/listening distance approx. 10-11')
- Anticipated use of 50% music, 25% cable, 25% movies
- Prefer sound quality over SPL
- Existing sources: PS3, AppleTV
- 5.1 system likely to be powered by Marantz 6003 or 5004, although nothing purchased yet so feel free to advise otherwise
- Would like 2 floorstandings, strong center and 2 decent surrounds plus 1 sub
- Ideal budget: $1,500 for the 5 speakers + $500 for the sub, but I can be flexible to upgrade if the benefit is compelling

#1 - Living room speakers: From what I have been reading, it looks like some of my best options for the speaker set would be:
- Aperion Intimus 5T / 5C / 5B
- Axiom M60 / VP150 / M2
- Paradigm Monitor 7 / CC-290 / ADP-190 (or Studio 60 if I can find them cheap)
- New PSB Image series

#2 - Living room sub: My current selection of subs includes (again, prefer sound quality and really needs to be less than 15" wide max, but the smaller the better):
- SVS PB-10NSD
- Velodyne DEQ-8R / DEQ-10R
- Velodyne Optimum-8
- Velodyne MiniVee
- Aperion Bravus 8D / 10D
- Sunfire HRS-8 / HRS-10
- Epik Vanquish
Anything else I should consider in the $500-$700 range? I like the remote feature on the Velodynes but I have a feeling it may be more gimmicky than just opting for really good sound...thoughts?

Now to the bedroom, here are my thoughts:
- Approx. 11' x 13' (viewing/listening distance approx. 9-10')
- Anticipated use of 50% music, 50% cable (basically no movies)
- Prefer sound quality over SPL
- Leaning towards a stereo setup - receiver + 2 bookshelf speakers, as I don't have room for floorstandings
- No room for a sub, so need to have bookshelves with really good bass
- Ideal budget: $500 for the 2 speakers

#3 - Bedroom speakers: I have been thinking about speakers from the same brands as above:
- Paradigm Atom, Mini Monitor
- PSB
- Axiom M2/M3
- Aperion 5B / 6B
- Usher S-520
- Possibly others that would be stronger on the lower end? (would need to roll off at less than 80hz I would think)

Any other brands I should consider?
- Ascend
- Canton
- Dynaudio
- Def Tech
- Energy
- KEF
- Monitor
- Vienna
- Revel
- Emotiva

Please share any thoughts you have on decisions #1, #2 and #3 above!

Are there any other components that I should consider for sources, amplifiers, conditioners, wiring, sound dampening, etc?

I really want to pull the trigger on this soon, so I sincerely appreciate any thoughts you guys out there might have...I am very confident you guys can lead me in the right direction!!

All the best and thanks again!

Doug

My living room commercial setup on your budget
3 sets of Behringer 2030/2031ps for around 450 total.
Leaves 1000 for the sub(home theater is all about the sub for me.)

http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12plus-detail_pgb.cfm for the sub.

Then to make up the difference I'd cut into the receiver cost and just get a Marantz 4002.

For your bedroom I'd get the 2031p's. Adwillk recently got a pair and loves them.

I know several folks that use these speakers in their home and are simply amazed. I think they will be good enough for your needs and they'll afford you the SVS sub.

Home theater doesn't require hi-fidelity as like Music does IMO.

That's my opinion So take it for what you will.

Another option is this

http://www.svsound.com/products-spks-scs01.cfm

combined with the SVS sub. But you can see the price is a bit more.

 

[synergy83]

WOW! Thanks for all the great advice! I really like the idea of auditioning a few sets of mains simultaneously that offer the no-risk return. I think that would make life considerably easier. Lot's of food for thought here. I am sadly still stuck in the office, but I will try to digest all of this more a little later...

Just a few more quick thoughts: I generally have preferred the look of towers over bookshelves on a stand, but could probably get past that if it means better sound. Also, my budget is not really too firm, so I have a bit of wiggle room to use if is worthwhile. I would rather make an extra marginal investment now rather than looking to upgrade again in the near future. Lastly, I am in a luxury high-rise condo, so while the sub will not be sharing a wall with any of my neighbors, the people below me would probably prefer that I not get something that will literally shake the building to its foundation, but that doesn't mean that I don't want something with a nice little bump

Thanks again to everyone for all the fantastic insight! You guys rock (literally)!

 

[lsiberian]

WOW! Thanks for all the great advice! I really like the idea of auditioning a few sets of mains simultaneously that offer the no-risk return. I think that would make life considerably easier. Lot's of food for thought here. I am sadly still stuck in the office, but I will try to digest all of this more a little later...

Just a few more quick thoughts: I generally have preferred the look of towers over bookshelves on a stand, but could probably get past that if it means better sound. Also, my budget is not really too firm, so I have a bit of wiggle room to use if is worthwhile. I would rather make an extra marginal investment now rather than looking to upgrade again in the near future. Lastly, I am in a luxury high-rise condo, so while the sub will not be sharing a wall with any of my neighbors, the people below me would probably prefer that I not get something that will literally shake the building to its foundation, but that doesn't mean that I don't want something with a nice little bump

Thanks again to everyone for all the fantastic insight! You guys rock (literally)!

If you get a great gamma it should reduce that greatly. So feel free to get a great sub for movies.

Plus movie sounds tend to be more tolerable than loud music anyway.

I think going bookshelf is wise on your budget. Towers of similar sound quality are going to raise the cost a lot.

I do suggest you do this in chunks though.

Start with a simple stereo setup in the living room first.(spread out your euphoric new toy enjoyment.)

You can really stretch out the enjoyment this way and maybe even swing more cash for better equipment.

If i were you I'd start with a nice Marantz 4002 and then go find the best pair of speakers I could to my ears.

It's better to have 2 great speakers than 7 okay ones.

 

[3db]

The Ascends are very clean and detailed and neutral in nature. Less like the PSBs and more like the Paradigm Studio 40s.

PSB Image series are very neutral espcially compared to Paradigm's Monitor series which they absolutely slay. The Image series are also more linear in their response than the Asends, player deeper tighter bass and have a nice detailed treble that isn't grainy or harsh. The Studio series is another price league above the Image seires. To compare apples to apples, one needs to compare PSB's Imagine (not to be confused with Image) series with the Studio series. You will find that each series in this class is a very formidable player and it just boils down to listener preference. I can't stand bright and I can't stnad have trble ennergy thrown in my face. I rather choose to listen for it instead.

 

[cschang]

3db....I have not seen measurements of 340SE's and Image series from the same source. Can you link them?

The 340SE's extend to 48hz, which seems to be between the Image B5 and B6 models.

I have not heard the Image series, but the PSBs I have heard are very nice.

 

[skers_54]

Since you're planning on keeping your system for a while, definitely get a receiver that decodes the lossless audio formats and has plenty of HDMI inputs. There's a lot of options that out there for relatively cheap. Denon has some killer options that provide a lot of value, as does Onkyo. Marantz receivers are very nice (I have a 4001) even if they are a little bit more expensive. Buying refurbished can save you a good chunk and are usually indistinguishable from new if bought from a reputable place like accessories4less.com.

I agree with Isiberian about the Behringers for the bedroom. I'm using the 2030 for my living room with a Kappa sub and the results are phenominal, especially for the cost. The 2031s are probably better for you, since you're going to be running them full range. The sound is comparable or superior to the options you listed for much less money. You could put the savings into better speakers for your living room or a small sub for the bedroom.

Like others have said, the biggest step is to find what type of sound you like. Put together some of your favorite songs and go to a couple of the high-end stores and try out a variety of speakers at several price points. I say several price points so that you can get a better idea of the compromises each speaker has. Brightness, detail, soundstage, imaging and bass extension are the basic parameters to focus on (while keeping in mind that the room will have a major effect on the sound).

My room is fairly similar in size and bookshelves work well. I used to have Polk towers and don't miss them despite my current speakers being physically smaller. The Gramma suggestion is great and will yield better sound while dramatically decreasing sound transmission to the neighbors. You do lose some tactile effects from the low bass, but the improved sound and happier neighbors make this acceptable (to me).

Good luck on your search!

 

[the grunt]

Doug, I just moved out of an apartment to a house a few months ago so I know of your concerns with neighbors. Was your condo built as one originally or is it a converted apartment or hotel building? Reason I ask is dedicated condos usually have better soundproofing between walls and sometimes floors. It helps that you won’t share a wall with anyone but keep in mind that the really low bass frequencies from your sub will go through multiple walls/floors.

I have both tower and bookshelf mains and one advantage I found with the bookshelf + sub combo was that late at night I could turn the sub way down or off and use just the bookshelf speakers which lacking the lower bass didn’t travel through the walls as bad. However, towers may not be a problem for you either if your building is well constructed.

On the flip side if you plan on this system moving with you some day to a house and don’t want to be upgrading, then getting the towers you really want may be a good option.

Something to consider down the road is if you have a problem playing the subwoofer as loud as you would like, especially for movies, consider getting a tactile transducer. I bought a Buttkicker (there are several other brands) and it made a huge difference when I couldn’t turn up my subwoofer. I don’t think they’re a replacement for a sub in any way but they sure make up for the missing lower bass when you can’t use a sub to it’s full potential. IMO they work better for movies than music.

It looks like you’ve already put a lot of thought and research into you purchase. Now the best thing you can really do is listen to whatever speakers are available near you and post back what you thought of them. Then others who have heard them can chime in to let you know what they think sounds similar to so you can find something w/o paying NYC prices.

Cheers,
Dean

 

[synergy83]

Thanks again everyone for all the great advice!

Dean - my condo is actually in a pretty nice luxury high-rise, so it is well constructed and very well insulated (I have never heard a peep from anyone around me), so I think it is probably less of an issue than I may have lead on.

Based on everything I have been reading, I am probably leaning towards the Ascend, new PSB T5, or possibly the Monitor 9 (more expensive but maybe a little less harsh than the 7). I still need to give the sub more thought, but with all the recommendations for the SVS, it is hard to do otherwise (Sunfire, Epik or maybe even Velodyne are still in the running).

The Aperion seems more expensive to get similar frequency response, sensitivity, etc and I am afraid the Axiom might be too bright.

The Behringer seem like a great option for the bedroom but I am not as convinced about their versatility for the main room.

My hope is to be able to give the PSB another in-person audition (not even sure if the new Image series is available yet) and/or possibly order 1 set of the Ascends and see how they compare. I will keep you guys posted.

Thanks again to all!

 

[synergy83]

One other quick question - would the suggestions changed at all if I was going to be using the speakers for gaming as well? I forgot to mention that before, but gaming will be another use for the main living room setup.

Also, I have a mix of both good and average quality recordings and frequently use digital audio sources as opposed to the higher grade analogs. With that in mind, are there any speakers that tend to be less forgiving with respect to the source quality (or are there stats I should look for to measure this)? How important is sensitivity versus frequency response?

Thanks again!!!

 

[the grunt]

Doug, good sounding speakers will sound good regardless of how you choose to use them. There are some special cases where one speaker might sound a little better for a certain use but it sounds like you have a variety of uses and since your primary focus (50%) is music I would go for sound quality over say ability to play loud.

The Aperion seems more expensive to get similar frequency response, sensitivity, etc and I am afraid the Axiom might be too bright.

Also, I have a mix of both good and average quality recordings and frequently use digital audio sources as opposed to the higher grade analogs. With that in mind, are there any speakers that tend to be less forgiving with respect to the source quality (or are there stats I should look for to measure this)? How important is sensitivity versus frequency response?

Still couldn’t hurt to demo Aperions in your price range if you have the time since it won’t cost anything to ship them back. As for “bright” or “detailed” speakers like Axiom, Focal, B&W etc… don’t count them out until you’ve heard some. However, “bright” or “detailed” speakers do tend to be the least forgiving of bad recordings IMO. As was said above your room will be a major factor in how you perceive the sound quality of your speakers. A “dead” (lots of soft furniture, bookshelves, carpeting) room might benefit from a “brighter” speaker. Whereas a “bright” (wood/tile floors, bare walls little soft furniture) room might benefit from a more “laid back” speaker.

Unfortunately what constitutes “bright,” “neutral” or “laid back” is not universal no matter what anyone tells you. I listen to Focals and hear clear precise detailed sound, as neutral as anything except my Sennheiser headphones. Someone else listening with me might hear the same thing as overly bright. Which is why we say you should go out and listen to speakers so there’s a frame of reference we can use to share how we think internet directs speakers you are interested in compare to what you’ve already heard.

In almost all cases I would choose flat frequency response over sensitivity any day. Above 20k Hz people can’t hear much so flat above that isn’t real important. Flat down low depends on if you plan to use a subwoofer for music. For me I want flat +-3dB down to 40Hz for music w/o a sub. With a sub more like +-3dB down to 80 Hz is ok.

The more sensitive the speaker the louder it will play with the same power as a less sensitive speaker. However, average volume is not the only consideration here. Certain types of music, like classical, have large dynamic peaks which a more sensitive speaker will handle better than a less sensitive speaker using the same power. Since most people upgrade their electronics more than their speakers you can likely add more power later even if you buy less sensitive but better sounding speakers now.

Cheers,
Dean

 

[3db]

3db....I have not seen measurements of 340SE's and Image series from the same source. Can you link them?

The 340SE's extend to 48hz, which seems to be between the Image B5 and B6 models.

I have not heard the Image series, but the PSBs I have heard are very nice.

I only have data on the older PSB Image Sreis speakers. Their smallest tower model is the T45 which I have and am totally thrilled with.

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/speakers/psb_image_t45/



I can't find any independent reviews on the Ascends.
Here are the manufacturers supplied specififications.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340mmeas.html

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340mspecs.html


And the PSB Image T45s

http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Image-Series/Image-T45-Tower

 

[billy p]

I only have data on the older PSB Image Sreis speakers. Their smallest tower model is the T45 which I have and am totally thrilled with.

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/speakers/psb_image_t45/



I can't find any independent reviews on the Ascends.
Here are the manufacturers supplied specififications.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340mmeas.html

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340mspecs.html


And the PSB Image T45s

http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Image-Series/Image-T45-Tower

Hey 3db I'm sure he already knows the specs for the Ascends. Aftherall he is Curtis from the Ascend forum.