Guys, needing more help...

[Modoc]

let me state up front...unfortunately my wife is dictating what I can use in our GR for setup due to aesthetics. So, I am trying a Pinnacle QP9 as the left, center, & right with a sub + 2 rear in-ceilings. My question is: would I be better off installing 2 designated front L&R in-ceilings? I feel like there's something missing up front....thanks again.

Also, I think I'm going to exchange the REEL 12-250 subwoofer I'm using for the SVS SB-12 Plus that I have seen so much chatter about here...thoughts???

Many thanks again.....

Modoc

 

[Modoc]

Testing

Testing to see.

 

[AVRat]

The soundbars are generally never a good idea except in the right room. What are the dimensions of your GR? In-ceilings I'm thinking will provide a fuller sound. Generally, up front you want something with some aimability to direct the sound more toward the listening area.

 

[Modoc]

~500sq. ft GR with 10-12ft ceilings. Wasn't crazy about doing the soundbar to begin with, but it is portable---which was an initial consideration. Not so much any more...thanks for all your advice. I'm trying to use in-ceilings for front & rear, left & rights. Audio is my first priority with HT being 2nd...but would like to have a good balance btw the two, if possible.

 

[TLS Guy]

~500sq. ft GR with 10-12ft ceilings. Wasn't crazy about doing the soundbar to begin with, but it is portable---which was an initial consideration. Not so much any more...thanks for all your advice. I'm trying to use in-ceilings for front & rear, left & rights. Audio is my first priority with HT being 2nd...but would like to have a good balance btw the two, if possible.

Your wife is wrong. My daughter is an architect and interior designer. Her advice to clients is to let things be what they. Form should always be with function for the best and most elegant results.

If you use ceiling speakers, the sound will be third or fourth rate. The sound will come form on high, which is irritating for music and very irritating for TV watching and movies. The ceiling speakers will continually draw attention to themselves, which flunks interior design 101.

On the other hand if you have an elegant set of speakers or in walls, placed correctly for TV viewing at the correct height, the speakers will become invisible.

Everyone knows speakers have to be there. Trying to disguise the fact, paradoxically makes them more visible.

 

[highfigh]

Your wife is wrong.

You tell her, then. He has to live with her and telling her something like that won't leave him with a peaceful home life.

If she doesn't want to see any speakers at all, she does need to know that they generally won't sound good and at that point, someone needs to ask "What's the point?".

 

[highfigh]

let me state up front...unfortunately my wife is dictating what I can use in our GR for setup due to aesthetics. So, I am trying a Pinnacle QP9 as the left, center, & right with a sub + 2 rear in-ceilings. My question is: would I be better off installing 2 designated front L&R in-ceilings? I feel like there's something missing up front....thanks again.

Also, I think I'm going to exchange the REEL 12-250 subwoofer I'm using for the SVS SB-12 Plus that I have seen so much chatter about here...thoughts???

Many thanks again.....

Modoc

I agree with TLS' daughter's advice- if they're needed, leave them but if possible, make them into a design element.

 

[TLS Guy]

You tell her, then. He has to live with her and telling her something like that won't leave him with a peaceful home life.

If she doesn't want to see any speakers at all, she does need to know that they generally won't sound good and at that point, someone needs to ask "What's the point?".

I would if I could get her attention!

The whole issue for great rooms, formal living, rooms need a good airing. This forum is as good a place to do it as any.

Most of these types of spaces are in fact used minimally by the owners. They are far too often show spaces, taking up a disproportionate amount of the total floor plan. Usually, but not always, it is the female pushing the issue. My daughter calls it part of the Stepford wives syndrome. My daughter always feels it is vital to air these issues and encourage the male of the house to have equal voice.

Square footage is far too valuable to have a large space set aside for show. These spaces usually full of impracticalities that make them poor and usually uncomfortable living spaces.

All home spaces should be designed for living to the full by the occupants. They also usually make even better spaces for guests, so there is no conflict.

We have never had "formal" spaces in any of our homes. Our spaces have been designed for use, and function has fitted tastefully with form.

While I'm at it, I'll make a comment about total home audio, and or AV systems. If you think about it having reproduced sound, or worse TVs on and seldom watched, whereever you are in the home tends to insanity. My daughter always highly recommends media free spaces.

You are far better off putting good media in spaces were you are prepared to devote time to be transported away by audio and visual media of your choice. The design of room and media should be a synergy.

 

[Modoc]

I appreciate all the feedback & I certainly agree, but (the ole but), I've got to live with my wife for now & she wants to see minimal stereo fodder in the GR--which IS actually more of a LR.

So, back to the ? of in-ceilings for front L&R + rear L&R. I already have the rears installed (Infinity's ERS 110II's or DT"S--got to find out specifically from installer?). How do the Pinnacle K8's compare (cost, performance, etc) to these Infinity ERS 110II's or Infinity ERS 110DT's? Would it make that big of a difference if I added 2 in-ceilings to the front L&R & use the Pinnacle QP9 as a dedicated center (if you can even do that)?

Also, do you think I should ask the installer to order the Pinnacle K8's & exchange them with for the Infinity's (said Pinnacle's were hard to get right now)--but would change them out if I didn't like them. Or are they about equal in value & performance?

Trying to sort this all out. I knew what I wanted originally (B&W's up front, rear, & center), but please don't tell how much better that would have been. Bottom line..Wife doesn't care...it's all about aesthetics gentlemen.....& it sucks....

Please help me be able to get as good a sound as I possibly can with these severe limitations/restrictions....many thanks to you all.

 

[TLS Guy]

I appreciate all the feedback & I certainly agree, but (the ole but), I've got to live with my wife for now & she wants to see minimal stereo fodder in the GR--which IS actually more of a LR.

So, back to the ? of in-ceilings for front L&R + rear L&R. I already have the rears installed (Infinity's ERS 110II's or DT"S--got to find out specifically from installer?). How do the Pinnacle K8's compare (cost, performance, etc) to these Infinity ERS 110II's or Infinity ERS 110DT's? Would it make that big of a difference if I added 2 in-ceilings to the front L&R & use the Pinnacle QP9 as a dedicated center (if you can even do that)?

Also, do you think I should ask the installer to order the Pinnacle K8's & exchange them with for the Infinity's (said Pinnacle's were hard to get right now)--but would change them out if I didn't like them. Or are they about equal in value & performance?

Trying to sort this all out. I knew what I wanted originally (B&W's up front, rear, & center), but please don't tell how much better that would have been. Bottom line..Wife doesn't care...it's all about aesthetics gentlemen.....& it sucks....

Please help me be able to get as good a sound as I possibly can with these severe limitations/restrictions....many thanks to you all.

I think you should share these posts with your wife. Ceilings for surrounds is OK. Ceiling speakers for L C R is absurd and she won't like it.

Why don't you post pictures of this space and give us the challenge of melding aesthetics and function. I think the Potus now calls these teaching moments!

 

[highfigh]

I would if I could get her attention!

The whole issue for great rooms, formal living, rooms need a good airing. This forum is as good a place to do it as any.

Most of these types of spaces are in fact used minimally by the owners. They are far too often show spaces, taking up a disproportionate amount of the total floor plan. Usually, but not always, it is the female pushing the issue. My daughter calls it part of the Stepford wives syndrome. My daughter always feels it is vital to air these issues and encourage the male of the house to have equal voice.

Square footage is far too valuable to have a large space set aside for show. These spaces usually full of impracticalities that make them poor and usually uncomfortable living spaces.

All home spaces should be designed for living to the full by the occupants. They also usually make even better spaces for guests, so there is no conflict.

We have never had "formal" spaces in any of our homes. Our spaces have been designed for use, and function has fitted tastefully with form.

While I'm at it, I'll make a comment about total home audio, and or AV systems. If you think about it having reproduced sound, or worse TVs on and seldom watched, whereever you are in the home tends to insanity. My daughter always highly recommends media free spaces.

You are far better off putting good media in spaces were you are prepared to devote time to be transported away by audio and visual media of your choice. The design of room and media should be a synergy.

I would bet just about everything I own that the reason your daughter isn't in the "I don't want to see any of the speakers" camp is that she grew up in your house, hearing the difference between your system and the ones in other peoples' houses and hearing your explanations about why theirs don't sound the same. If sound quality is the goal, being hidden doesn't work well unless a lot of money is spent for unique compromises.

I have debated the hidden/not hidden speaker issue with other decorators and designers, with little middle ground reached. They want the spaces they design to be seen as a work of art and except for a couple of them, who are actually interested in sound quality, they don't care why it's necessary to use such "huge, ugly speakers". I have a client whose living room speakers are KEF 107, in walnut. He had them before he and his wife were married and I was there when the interior detonator came in. One of his questions, after wrinkling his nose and sticking his tongue out, was to ask if they could be painted.

 

[markw]

Anyone still wondering why those little Bose speaker systems sell so well?

 

[AVRat]

You're TV wouldn't happen to be above a fireplace, would it? If so, you might seriously consider 3 SpeakerCraft AIM 8s across the front. Niles also has some good options. The QP9 has a relatively high, low-end response which is probably why you feel something is missing. And yes, the SVS SB12-Plus would probably be a better choice. You may also consider the Epk Vanquish as well.

 

[Patrukas777]

This Is Why I'm Not Married!!!!!!!!

 

[Tomorrow]

let me state up front...unfortunately my wife is dictating what I can use in our GR for setup due to aesthetics. So, I am trying a Pinnacle QP9 as the left, center, & right with a sub + 2 rear in-ceilings. My question is: would I be better off installing 2 designated front L&R in-ceilings? I feel like there's something missing up front....thanks again.

Also, I think I'm going to exchange the REEL 12-250 subwoofer I'm using for the SVS SB-12 Plus that I have seen so much chatter about here...thoughts???

Many thanks again.....

Modoc

Some single guys are going to tell you to "grow a pair", Modoc. But many of us understand about domestic compromise.

Here are my suggestions, such as they are....

1. Yes, get the SVS.
2. Ditch the sound bar speakers and get some "decorative" or otherwise attractive speakers that may be successfully marketed to your CEO while also providing quality SQ. ERA D5's come to mind. JBL ES or L series on-walls are another decent option. In-ceiling, not the best, are acceptable for rear surrounds.

Finally, I'd like to take a bit of issue with Mark (TLSGuy) about use of GR's and media-free zones. Like loudspeaker designs themselves, the rooms that house them are subjected to trade-offs of performance, cost, other practicalities, and aesthetics. And perhaps most importantly, again like speakers, rooms/living spaces are part and parcel of subjective experience. Beauty and practicality limits are in the eyes of the beholders. GR's need not be "formal", nor impractical, nor tasteless wastes of comfort and intimacy. Nor need they be monuments to self-indulgence. GR design OTOH can diminish the cloistered feeling one can get in small rooms, allow large gatherings while also providing separation for variety amidst those gatherings, and also upgrade home resale value/interest. In that they are not particularly suited to critical 2-channel listening nor do they offer the perfect home theater acoustics is beside the point, really. Other rooms can be designated for that purpose.

As for media-free zones...well, who hasn't read a newspaper on the john (okay...just joking about this being "media"), or wanted to hear some music while in the office scanning AH, or wanted to watch the news in the bedroom (we're married, right?), etc.

Much good luck with your room, Modoc.

 

[Highbar]

Any way you can do in-walls for the front 3? Going with in-ceilings for L&R and a center below the tv is going to have panning sound across the front going from up high to down low and then back up again. It isn't going to sound good at all. 3 in-ceilings would sound better but still not great. If you could do 3 in-walls across the front that would be nice and there are even some that you can paint the grills to look like painting or what not.

 

[TLS Guy]

Some single guys are going to tell you to "grow a pair", Modoc. But many of us understand about domestic compromise.

Here are my suggestions, such as they are....

1. Yes, get the SVS.
2. Ditch the sound bar speakers and get some "decorative" or otherwise attractive speakers that may be successfully marketed to your CEO while also providing quality SQ. ERA D5's come to mind. JBL ES or L series on-walls are another decent option. In-ceiling, not the best, are acceptable for rear surrounds.

Finally, I'd like to take a bit of issue with Mark (TLSGuy) about use of GR's and media-free zones. Like loudspeaker designs themselves, the rooms that house them are subjected to trade-offs of performance, cost, other practicalities, and aesthetics. And perhaps most importantly, again like speakers, rooms/living spaces are part and parcel of subjective experience. Beauty and practicality limits are in the eyes of the beholders. GR's need not be "formal", nor impractical, nor tasteless wastes of comfort and intimacy. Nor need they be monuments to self-indulgence. GR design OTOH can diminish the cloistered feeling one can get in small rooms, allow large gatherings while also providing separation for variety amidst those gatherings, and also upgrade home resale value/interest. In that they are not particularly suited to critical 2-channel listening nor do they offer the perfect home theater acoustics is beside the point, really. Other rooms can be designated for that purpose.

As for media-free zones...well, who hasn't read a newspaper on the john (okay...just joking about this being "media"), or wanted to hear some music while in the office scanning AH, or wanted to watch the news in the bedroom (we're married, right?), etc.

Much good luck with your room, Modoc.

I don't think we have any significant disagreement. We are on the same page.

I think we agree completely, about the purpose of these great room spaces, or whatever you want to call them. I also agree that they are usually unsuitable spaces for audio and AV as a rule. I think you can make a very good case for having those spaces media free. And obviously there is nothing wrong with a TV in a bedroom. In fact I can understand very well why someone would want a decent AV system in a bedroom. A bathroom I have trouble making the case for.

I do strongly believe that if space allows, good audio and AV systems are best set up in rooms dedicated to the purpose.

And I do have an issue planning speakers in the ceiling of every room controlled from a key bad. I think that epitomizes a lot that is wrong with the modern age.

I will dwell a little on form and function.

When the remodel of our home at Benedict was almost complete, my wife took exception to this room unit of the split air conditioner. It is visible top right.

She wanted to know if it could go or be disguised. This area can hold a lot of people and has a big heat load from cooking.

So my daughter, who was the architect and interior designer, had to explain to my wife, that that area had to have a boost AC unit for times of exceptional heat load. Further that a unit is what it is, and would not be an unexpected fixture, and therefore not detract from the space, but enhance it, because it makes the space comfortable. You can make the same argument for speakers and AV systems in general if tastefully done. As an aside I would make the comment that, that space if totally unsuitable for AV equipment of any type.

In a dedicated space for audio and video, the problems I agree are different. Obviously this is because the reason for creating the space is for listening and or video. So the equipment has to integrate with the space and be continuous with the space. Despite containing a lot of equipment, even non technical listeners find this a beautiful space, large speakers and all.

Multipurpose spaces need compromise and careful integration of AV equipment with the decor and uses of the space.

This subject of form and function is complex. The issues are not usually handled or solved well by interior decorator types.

 

[Tomorrow]

Thanks, Mark, for your thoughtful post and lovely pics (as usual).

Modoc...there lies the template for your home. (And your wife should check out those photographs! )