Obama ends program that let pilots carry guns

[mtrycrafts]

"Already"?! Well there you go then. QED.

Of course if anyone were still alive from those 4 aircraft that crashed on 9/11, they might have a more forceful argument for you, mtry.

Yes, of course. And, they would have halted all the hijackings from day one when that fad started.

 

[mtrycrafts]

yeah, but we don't know on which plane they are

i'd be scared if i were a terrorist

Then you would not make a good terrorist
The hard core, if they got on the plane, would be satisfied with creating terror in the cabin itself without getting into the cockpit.

 

[mtrycrafts]

My understanding is that most pilots are ex-military pilots, and have had extensive firearm training.

I doubt that may be the case today. And I doubt the amount of gun training they have had in the military at least for the older ones, unless you were in the Marines.
And, if that training is gaped for a good time, there goes your efficiency
There is a good reason why the pilots get check flight every 6 month

 

[Rickster71]

Yeah I know. But again....moving plane....handgun....no shoulder stock.

When you say 'moving plane' you make it sound like it's the Red Baron doing barrel rolls, or a roller coaster ride.
If people are sipping hot coffee and drinks while flying, I'm sure the co-pilot can squeeze off a shot while seated, and his hand braced against his seat back. The distance from his seat to cabin door is at the most three feet.
Kids are under more pressure playing Half-Life2.

If you have such little faith in what a professional pilot can do, I'd hate to hear what you think of a volunteer first-aid member or firefighter.

 

[Rickster71]

Perhaps that is a new party I should create. The LCS (Logic & Common Sense) party.

Really...so what are the three of you going to do?....

 

[Rickster71]

I think the easiest way to handle it is to ensure:

#1 Terrorists do not get into the country to begin with (better border security)

#2 Ensure anyone with any sort of weapon does not get remotely close to the plane

#3 Offer a non-lethal weapon to the pilots and offer a "heat of the moment" training every 6 months.

Playing devil's advocate:

#1. That's racists and profiling.

#2. They are too busy searching grandmothers, and diaper bags...just so they won't be accused of profiling.

 

[Alex2507]

#1. That's racist and profiling.

Nah, only letting white people fly is racist and profiling.

 

[aberkowitz]

Someone who wants 72 virgins in Paradise, that's who.

OTOH, seeing a woman like that kicking the crap out of some dirtbag would be sooooooo hot!

Amendment- from now on all flight attendants must be hot virgins...

 

[Rickster71]

Nah, only letting white people fly is racist and profiling.

Only letting them fly, or only searching white people?

 

[sawzalot]

Round trip for two on Virgin Airlines kinda catchy.Where all the girls are really hot virgins

 

[krzywica]

When you say 'moving plane' you make it sound like it's the Red Baron doing barrel rolls, or a roller coaster ride.
If people are sipping hot coffee and drinks while flying, I'm sure the co-pilot can squeeze off a shot while seated, and his hand braced against his seat back. The distance from his seat to cabin door is at the most three feet.
Kids are under more pressure playing Half-Life2.

If you have such little faith in what a professional pilot can do, I'd hate to hear what you think of a volunteer first-aid member or firefighter.

I used to work with them every day and can say that they are not proficient enough with firearms to be able to perform in these conditions.

I was in the USAF for 4 years and had yearly small arms training. This consisted of a group of about 20 people that did both M-16 and 9MM training that went from E-1 to O-whatever....Most of the officers were pilots. I am an avid shooter and have been for years. When I was in the service I shot about once a week at various indoor and outdoor ranges, as well as courses.To say that most people's shooting is bad would be a drastic understatement. Once a year just doesn't cut it. And as far as the one time SERE training goes....that experience wears off quickly. And you have to realize a lot of the pilots (I would say most but I'm not sure) were not fighter pilots and are not really mentally prepared for such circumstances.

 

[sawzalot]

What is the sole purpose of the gun toting pilot to save the plane in itself from causing mass destruction being used as a flying bomb or to save the people on board from being killed or both? The reason I ask this way is this, the terrorist that boarded the planes had what boxcutters right,so if that door between the cockpit and say the boxcutter is made out of something like the window at the quickie mart couldnt the pilot stay in control of the plane no matter what happens.I mean lets face it no matter what the terrorist say to bargain for the lives of those on board they would all die if the pilots give up control of the plane.I always felt like as long as the pilots are safe from the rest of the passengers chances are the plane will land safely somewhere.Sorry if this sounds far fetched but its just a thought,every time I fly I find I am always watching who goes where on the plane I have become so paranoid.

 

[Rickster71]

I used to work with them every day and can say that they are not proficient enough with firearms to be able to perform in these conditions.

I was in the USAF for 4 years and had yearly small arms training. This consisted of a group of about 20 people that did both M-16 and 9MM training that went from E-1 to O-whatever....Most of the officers were pilots. I am an avid shooter and have been for years. When I was in the service I shot about once a week at various indoor and outdoor ranges, as well as courses.To say that most people's shooting is bad would be a drastic understatement. Once a year just doesn't cut it. And as far as the one time SERE training goes....that experience wears off quickly. And you have to realize a lot of the pilots (I would say most but I'm not sure) were not fighter pilots and are not really mentally prepared for such circumstances.

I'm just the "Adapt and Overcome" type, and just hope there is a real solution.
Because as you know with you being in the USAF, the alternative is to shoot the high-jacked airliner down.
That was the situation Sept 11th.
The closest jets were at Atlantic City, NJ and couldn't get there in time.

 

[JLMEMT]

They're only on a limited number of flights.

Layered security always works better that a single sided approach! Think of it as deciding that you don't need to lock your doors because you have a security system. With a brave burglar you will find your stuff gone and the police waiting for you to take a report because the alarm company called them. Saved you a phone call, but didn't quite work like you wanted it to!

And I can guarantee you that your chances are decent of running across an armed pilot on a flight right now. I would likely take my chances on the odds of finding an air marshall on my flight.

Besides you are not thinking about the fact that most of these terrorists are willing to give there lives to achieve their mission. The armed pilots are the final layer they have to get through. If they are not there they will succeed at that point. I can assure you that the pilots do not want to start shooting on the plane, but if they have to they are your final hope anyway.

 

[JLMEMT]

I was really only interested in talking about banging stewardesses but have now been forced to read the article. Yes 70% of the pilots have military experience. It doesn't talk about the gun toting ones in particular but they are clearly a well behaved group.

The interesting thing is that the required safety program is being ended but the pilots already carrying will be left alone. It seems like someone just needs to take a closer look at this and stop the nonsense. Maybe we could get down to the bottom of who came up with this brainstorm and ask them what they were thinking. If they can't come up with reasonable reasons for this retarded idea, we take away their right to wear ties. That's right, ties. Don't important people look down their noses at the tie-less masses?

I think it's important to consider that this type of 'stuff' is happening on Obama's watch but it's not like he's personally responsible for every stupid thing that happens. Let's just go back to bashing republicans and if need be we can surely continue observing Bush. It's not like he's going to stop being an idiot any time soon.

YEAH !!!

I would be more than willing to bet you that this is Obama's personal anti-gun sentiment coming through!
So you are routing for the guy, but you have no idea what he stands for?

 

[krzywica]

I'm just the "Adapt and Overcome" type, and just hope there is a real solution.

I like to think of myself in the same light....but some situations that arise happen so fast that they are here and gone before you can even process them or apply any logic to them. Thats why the military and law enforcement stress adherence to the step by step procedures already set in place. This is a very bad thing that they are deciding to handle situations like these on a piecemeal basis because it throws any preformulated procedure out the window.

Because as you know with you being in the USAF, the alternative is to shoot the high-jacked airliner down.
That was the situation Sept 11th.
The closest jets were at Atlantic City, NJ and couldn't get there in time.

Yeah thats what they said anyway.....from what I remember the commander of one of the F15 fighter wings at Eglin AFB told me that there was at least 1 pair of jets in the air around DC - Always. But I could be wrong and I certainly don't want to go down the 911 debate road...

 

[JLMEMT]

The vast majority of the ex-military pilots have little to no combat experience as most of them were "heavies" pilots in the military. They were also all officers in their respective branches which makes them in my experience the bottom of the barrel when it comes to winning a fight. Most of those pilots are complete idiots and do not have a thorough understanding of anything except reading pre/post flight checklists.

Oh and their small arms training consists of shooting a paper target 20 feet away with a 9mm once a year. Not the most bad a$$ training regiment if I ever saw one.

You are probably correct.
But, how hard is it to shoot at someone coming through a tiny door when that is their only option?? It doesn't take a SEAL to do that.

 

[aberkowitz]

What is the sole purpose of the gun toting pilot to save the plane in itself from causing mass destruction being used as a flying bomb or to save the people on board from being killed or both? The reason I ask this way is this, the terrorist that boarded the planes had what boxcutters right,so if that door between the cockpit and say the boxcutter is made out of something like the window at the quickie mart couldnt the pilot stay in control of the plane no matter what happens.I mean lets face it no matter what the terrorist say to bargain for the lives of those on board they would all die if the pilots give up control of the plane.I always felt like as long as the pilots are safe from the rest of the passengers chances are the plane will land safely somewhere.Sorry if this sounds far fetched but its just a thought,every time I fly I find I am always watching who goes where on the plane I have become so paranoid.

Sawzalot makes an interesting point, although done in a roundabout manner . Let me take a shot....

Question- If the cockpit doors are so secure that they cannot be opened from the outside, then why do pilots need guns?

Let's say that terrorists take over a plane and threaten to kill everybody on board unless the pilot opens the cockpit door. Given what happened on 9/11, pilots should be (at least I hope) under strict instructions never to open the door in a stress situation. Their first course of action should be to safely get the plane out of the air and onto the ground so that trained authorities can defuse the situation (e.g. kill the bastards with extreme prejudice) as quickly as possible. Since the cockpit door is 100% secure, or so we're told, the pilots would never be in danger and would never have to open the door, and would therefore not need a gun.

I assume that the counterargument back would say something like "but if the pilot has a gun couldn't he defuse the situation and save the passengers?" Possibly, but doesn't that go against the first objective which is getting the plane out of the air? If the terrorists were to take hold of the cockpit everybody on the plane is probably going to die anyway, particularly if they are able to relock the secure door, and thousands more on the ground could get hurt as well. If there are 10 terrorists on a plane with box cutters, brass knuckles, or even just their fists, how much good is one guy with a gun going to do? The terrorists clearly don't care about living or dying, once the cockpit door is opened it would only be a matter of time before they overpowered the man with the gun and potentially took the cockpit anyway. If we're talking about only 1 or 2 modestly armed terrorists, there's a much better chance that the passengers would overtake them without putting the cockpit of the plane at risk.

Finally, considering the scenario where the supposedly secure door is able to be breached, is a gun really going to serve somebody well is such a tight space like a plane cockpit? I've flown several hundred times in my life (I used to be a consultant and traveled at least twice a week), and the cockpit has about as much space to maneuver as the bathroom. I don't know much about close-quarter hand to hand combat, particularly not with weapons, but I cannot imagine that the guy with the gun will have a significant advantage over the attacker. Plus, if the cockpit door has been breached the chances that something really bad is going to happen go up exponentially.

All of that said, if it makes a pilot feel better to have a gun stowed securely in a cockpit then I'm all for it, particularly if it will improve his or her state of mind. However, with the exception of the third situation I listed I cannot imagine a scenario where I think its a good idea for one of the pilots to even open the door and potentially expose the cockpit just so he/she can use the gun.

 

[JLMEMT]

Do people honestly believe that a clever terrorist will come crashing through the cockpit door rather than figuring out how to get through calmly by threatening a flight attendant to open the door or other method? On top of that, who will fly the plane if the pilots are all killed in a shootout? Stopping terrorists before they get on the plane is the only thing that makes sense.

That's great, but what is your plan to do it?


The Israeli's have it figured out pretty well, but not enough people get blown up here for that to be accepted.

 

[JLMEMT]

Sawzalot makes an interesting point, although done in a roundabout manner . Let me take a shot....

Question- If the cockpit doors are so secure that they cannot be opened from the outside, then why do pilots need guns?

Let's say that terrorists take over a plane and threaten to kill everybody on board unless the pilot opens the cockpit door. Given what happened on 9/11, pilots should be (at least I hope) under strict instructions never to open the door in a stress situation. Their first course of action should be to safely get the plane out of the air and onto the ground so that trained authorities can defuse the situation (e.g. kill the bastards with extreme prejudice) as quickly as possible. Since the cockpit door is 100% secure, or so we're told, the pilots would never be in danger and would never have to open the door, and would therefore not need a gun.

I assume that the counterargument back would say something like "but if the pilot has a gun couldn't he defuse the situation and save the passengers?" Possibly, but doesn't that go against the first objective which is getting the plane out of the air? If the terrorists were to take hold of the cockpit everybody on the plane is probably going to die anyway, particularly if they are able to relock the secure door, and thousands more on the ground could get hurt as well. If there are 10 terrorists on a plane with box cutters, brass knuckles, or even just their fists, how much good is one guy with a gun going to do? The terrorists clearly don't care about living or dying, once the cockpit door is opened it would only be a matter of time before they overpowered the man with the gun and potentially took the cockpit anyway. If we're talking about only 1 or 2 modestly armed terrorists, there's a much better chance that the passengers would overtake them without putting the cockpit of the plane at risk.

Finally, considering the scenario where the supposedly secure door is able to be breached, is a gun really going to serve somebody well is such a tight space like a plane cockpit? I've flown several hundred times in my life (I used to be a consultant and traveled at least twice a week), and the cockpit has about as much space to maneuver as the bathroom. I don't know much about close-quarter hand to hand combat, particularly not with weapons, but I cannot imagine that the guy with the gun will have a significant advantage over the attacker. Plus, if the cockpit door has been breached the chances that something really bad is going to happen go up exponentially.

All of that said, if it makes a pilot feel better to have a gun stowed securely in a cockpit then I'm all for it, particularly if it will improve his or her state of mind. However, with the exception of the third situation I listed I cannot imagine a scenario where I think its a good idea for one of the pilots to even open the door and potentially expose the cockpit just so he/she can use the gun.

First off, NO door is secure, much less one that you can put in a plane. They re enforced them, I have not heard it said that they are 100% secure. That is a big difference.

2nd, the pilot with the gun is a last resort. You want to give up that last resort and bank on the said door? I don't!


On another point the one accidental discharge mentioned earlier was actually caused by government stupidity and was not really the pilots fault. The "program" has the pilots locking the gun with a padlock through the trigger guard of a loaded weapon in a modified holster to allow the lock. Anyone with any gun common sense at all knows that you NEVER do that! But what does the government have them do? And why? To appease the anti-gun crowd, and to do it cheaply instead of correctly.