Best Subwoofer for $300-$400?

[croseiv]

I guess the engineer in me throws branding right out the window when I see a product that performs better for less money.

I absolutely agree with you here. There are multiple subs out there can out perform the PB10-NSD for the price.

 

[Alex2507]

There are multiple subs out there can out perform the PB10-NSD for the price.

Well don't leave us hangin', Hoss.

 

[croseiv]

Well don't leave us hangin', Hoss.

I'd give this a try for starters:

eD A3-300

Cadence

 

[croseiv]

There are subs that may have more output, but he's going to be hard pressed to find anything in the PB10's price range with equivalent low end capablity.

 

[westcott]

There are subs that may have more output, but he's going to be hard pressed to find anything in the PB10's price range with equivalent low end capablity.

croseiv makes a great point here. SVS, and HSU, to some extent have taken the philosophy of producing a subwoofer that does well at the low end while sacrificing performance from 45Hz and up. The trend up till know has always been to provide a flat frequency response in the higher ranges and allow the signal to roll off at the lower frequencies. As the white paper I provided suggests, two subwoofers is probably a better solution to provide better coverage and a smoother frequency response across the range. Only the really expensive subwoofers seem to be able to do it all, and that is why they cost so much. Plus, if you are only looking at what a sub does at 20Hz, then the marketing strategy of HSU and SVS pays off.

 

[annunaki]

Remember that the reason the upper frequency response tends to trail off is due to the amount of compromises that come into play for a manufacturer. Much of the compromise is a woofer that operates in a linear fashion over a majority or the whole xmax capability of the woofer.

A sub that is solid from 20hz-100hz is eaily obtainable in the DIY realm when a quality driver is the focal point along with a properly designed cabinet. Properly designed cabinets usually do not happen in the commercial sub world due to asthetics reasons (larger cabinets).

A linear driver like the Infinity Perfect VQ or JL Audio 12W6v2 will offer the "best of both worlds". With properly executed cabinet designs they will easily be flat from 20hz-100hz or so. With the deals I have seen on the Infinity driver lately (around $175.00 or less) and the cost of a good plate amplifier ($200-$300) or so one could have world class sub performance for under $550.00 including materials for the cabinet. It would be well advised to save up the extra $150.00 and have a substantially better performing sub than what can be found for around $400.00.

Parts Express has a BASH amplifier for $228.00 for instance.

 

[croseiv]

Here's another possibilty on ebay:

infinity SW12

 

[ronoz56]

OK Boys! After reading the recent posts and considering the large "L" shaped open floor plan that I have to fill, I called SVS and cancelled the order for the PB10-NSD since the order had not yet been processed. Despite wanting to only spend around $400.00 or so, I figured that I might as well just try to do it right the first time so I opted to go with the SVS PC12-NSD cylinder sub priced at $549.00. At least this one is not as big and bulky as the PB12-NSD so I should have enough room for it.

Wescott - that was the first that I had heard of the Infinity SW12 and did not see it in any of the forums that I researched. Because so many people raved about SVS and HSU so much, I decided to choose between the two companies. I also looked at the Craigsub ranking and noticed several SVS and HSU brands listed there. Don't get me wrong, I did look at some subs from eD, Epik, Velodyne, Cadence and Paradigm but SVS and HSU kept being mentioned. Hopefully, I will be satisfied with the new order. Thanks for your help.

WmAx - As far as building one, I just wouldn't trust myself enough to put a nice looking, good sounding sub together. Although I am handy, I'm not quite the wood-working type. I could forsee a lot of frustration going that route.

I do feel good about not having walked into one of the local CC's or BB's to purchase what probably would have been a lesser quality sub for the money that I am spending. Well, thanks again for all your posts ans I will report back hopefully sometime next week when I get the PC12 in and let you all know how it sounds with my set up.

 

[croseiv]

Sweet! Let us know your thoughts when it comes in!

 

[Alex2507]

There are multiple subs out there can out perform the PB10-NSD for the price.

I thought you meant 'dual' subs that could be had for the same money. I have a couple of Infinity PS10's in a stack of my own. The stack configuration is due to my secondary sub position option delivering poor FR. I read somewhere that having dual subs at different elevations is worth trying. They would be around $414 delivered from The Audio Video Source. Recently I had my sister get a couple of 12" Daytons from PE for around $304 plus shipping. I didn't get to really form an opinion of the Daytons.

Westcott mentioned how time consuming sub placement is. I'll second that. Especially if you take any kind of measurements. It is truly a labor of love.

 

[hondajake]

The best 300-400 dollar subwoofer is one that you wait for and buy a 500-600 dollars subwoofer....

 

[WmAx]

WmAx - As far as building one, I just wouldn't trust myself enough to put a nice looking, good sounding sub together. Although I am handy, I'm not quite the wood-working type. I could forsee a lot of frustration going that route.

.

Ronoz56, I understand. But... BUT.... what if you can just buy a pre-finished cabinet(prebuilt, prepainted, etc.) that all you have to do is cut a hole and install the driver, then hook up to an amp?

I'm looking for such a solution for you that fits in, or just above your budget(you would be willing to spend a little more for a vastly superior product, right?). So don't pull the retail trigger just yet...

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

I rarely find drivers that meet my standards of performance. However, I have discovered a jewel in the rough. A driver that is suited to sealed alignments, and provides substantial output level down low, and with zero compromise of sound quality. Reasonable cost with extraordinarily linearity; linearity matching, or slightly superior to JL W7, which is a benchmark in high end performance subwoofers.

Purchase the following things:

-Eclipse SW8200 12" Subwoofer $200-$230 ($220 w/shipping BIN on eBay)
-Dayton Pre-Fab/Pre-Finished 3.0 ft^3 sealed cabinet. Black. $190(Parts Express Link)
-O Audio 500 Watt Bash Plate Amplifier $230(O Audio Link)

Total cost: $650 Approximately.

A commercial product of somewhat equivalent quality and performance will cost you at minimum 3x-4x this amount.

All parts here are critical for proper function of the system. The amp is interchangeable only if you find one with equal or greater ACTUAL power AND it must have a true parametric E.Q.. You shall set the parametric E.Q. to 36-38Hz, it shall be set at a Q of 1, and it shall be set to gain of -2dB. The parametric setting is crucial because the 3 cubic foot sealed box creates a natural Qtc of 1.1. This is too high for good sound quality; it results in resonant/peaky response. The parametric filter counter-acts this effect and gives you a perfectly smooth, high sound quality response curve.

Notes: The driver has a motor with 3rd party verified linearity of outstanding characteristics. Even at 60 mm peak-to-peak, motor BL strength is nearly identical (within about 10 percent) to 1 mm excursion point. This driver shall never enter any excursion in the use above that puts it into a non linear position. It shall have near identical sound quality at 10 watts or 400 watts input power. SPL will be a minimum of 2x of the commercial subwoofers you have considered so far. Sound quality will be radically superior, also. -3dB point will be 26Hz, -6dB will be 21 Hz. Since this is a sealed system, rate of roll off is shallower than ported units. With room gain/LF boost of typical closed 2000 cubic foot room, -3dB in room will be expected to be about 20Hz. You should install high density fiberglass or rockwool/mineral rock/wool fiber - the stiff stiff that comes in 2' x 4' boards - in the cabinet walls for ideal dampening. Use 4" thick on bottom and back panel, and 2" on remaining interior. The material comes most often in 2" thick pieces, so simply double it for 4". Install cloth or thin carpet foam over the fiber material to prevent fibers from possible entering the driver motor vent and causing motor problems.

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO TO BUILD THIS IS CUT A COUPLE OF HOLES. NO SPECIAL SKILLS REQUIRED.

-Chris

 

[allargon]

Chris, too bad you didn't recommend a 15" driver for him. I could sell him my cabinet (the same one).

 

[WmAx]

Chris, too bad you didn't recommend a 15" driver for him. I could sell him my cabinet (the same one).

I don't know of any other driver, 15" or otherwise, that is suited to this application as well for a combination of sound quality and SPL and extension. This 12" will outperform the vast majority of 15" units under 35Hz, even if you provide a larger sealed cabinet for the 15" units to operate under better conditions than 3 cubic feet may allow on average. The average high quality 15"(of which, almost no commercial subs use a 'high quality' 15" in them....) will have an equal level of motor linearity at roughly 10mm as compared to this 12" unit at 35mm, one way. It is a most unusual driver, indeed. The motor/suspension is so good here that it give you substantially more linear displacement as compared to most 15" drivers. BTW, I don't mean to imply the Eclipse option above will create huge SPLs. It will create moderate SPL with extremely high fidelity. If you want huge SPLs, you need to use at least 2 of them, or go with another driver/cabinet design. But the commercial designs covered in this thread can't even manage moderate SPLs with high fidelity.....

-Chris

 

[Bluesmoke]

Beautiful looking 15" there. All for $399. I wish I lived in the US.

 

[annunaki]

I rarely find drivers that meet my standards of performance. However, I have discovered a jewel in the rough. A driver that is suited to sealed alignments, and provides substantial output level down low, and with zero compromise of sound quality. Reasonable cost with extraordinarily linearity; linearity matching, or slightly superior to JL W7, which is a benchmark in high end performance subwoofers.

Purchase the following things:

-Eclipse SW8200 12" Subwoofer $200-$230 ($220 w/shipping BIN on eBay)
-Dayton Pre-Fab/Pre-Finished 3.0 ft^3 sealed cabinet. Black. $190(Parts Express Link)
-O Audio 500 Watt Bash Plate Amplifier $230(O Audio Link)

Total cost: $650 Approximately.

A commercial product of somewhat equivalent quality and performance will cost you at minimum 3x-4x this amount.

All parts here are critical for proper function of the system. The amp is interchangeable only if you find one with equal or greater ACTUAL power AND it must have a true parametric E.Q.. You shall set the parametric E.Q. to 36-38Hz, it shall be set at a Q of 1, and it shall be set to gain of -2dB. The parametric setting is crucial because the 3 cubic foot sealed box creates a natural Qtc of 1.1. This is too high for good sound quality; it results in resonant/peaky response. The parametric filter counter-acts this effect and gives you a perfectly smooth, high sound quality response curve.

Notes: The driver has a motor with 3rd party verified linearity of outstanding characteristics. Even at 60 mm peak-to-peak, motor BL strength is nearly identical (within about 10 percent) to 1 mm excursion point. This driver shall never enter any excursion in the use above that puts it into a non linear position. It shall have near identical sound quality at 10 watts or 400 watts input power. SPL will be a minimum of 2x of the commercial subwoofers you have considered so far. Sound quality will be radically superior, also. -3dB point will be 26Hz, -6dB will be 21 Hz. Since this is a sealed system, rate of roll off is shallower than ported units. With room gain/LF boost of typical closed 2000 cubic foot room, -3dB in room will be expected to be about 20Hz. You should install high density fiberglass or rockwool/mineral rock/wool fiber - the stiff stiff that comes in 2' x 4' boards - in the cabinet walls for ideal dampening. Use 4" thick on bottom and back panel, and 2" on remaining interior. The material comes most often in 2" thick pieces, so simply double it for 4". Install cloth or thin carpet foam over the fiber material to prevent fibers from possible entering the driver motor vent and causing motor problems.

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO TO BUILD THIS IS CUT A COUPLE OF HOLES. NO SPECIAL SKILLS REQUIRED.

-Chris

That is awfully cheap for TC Sounds LMT (Linear Motor Technology) to be had. Good find Chris. Eclipse has used TC sounds variants for many years now.

 

[fhlh]

Here's two possibilites:

eD A3-250

or

HSU STF-2

I'll second both these.
I currently run the eD, and I like it allot (especially at 350.00 USD)... although it is beastly in size.

There's a review of the eD at goodsound dot com if you want to read, can't post a link cause I'm a newb

 

[ronoz56]

Svs Pc12-nsd

O.K.! So I got the SVS PC12-NSD in a few days ago, removed my 100 watt Infinity BU2 sub and connected the new one. I then used my Yamaha RX-V750's automatic audio leveler w/ microphone to tune the entire system in after which I replayed "Eagle Eye" on my Panasonic Blue-Ray player to test it out.........Holy @#$%! This thing ROCKED! I could not believe the power and depth put out by this sub. Even when the bass was so low that I could barely hear it, I still felt it moving the room. This sub made my entire home theater system come to life with a new, powerful and rich sound that I had never heard from it before. There was so much power coming from the sub that I was worried that it would affect my Pioneer plasma located only about 1 ft. away.

I must say that I am extremely impressed with what this sub can do. One draw-back is the black felty material that SVS uses to wrap the exterior of their cylinder subs with. Neither I nor the GF have come to terms with that yet however, my cat has and immediately tested it out as if I bought him a new scratching post. SVS discusses this on their product page and says that the material is basically "Cat Proof"!

Now, a few questions. First, I am running the gain between the 11-12 o'clock position, the phase on 0 and the crossover at 80 Hz. Does that sound right? I also have mt AVR's subwoofer setting at +1 db for a little extra kick? Second, is the sub too close to my TV and will it cause any damage or interference (it hasn't yet)? Finally, can anyone tell me the differences, if any, between the PC12-NSD (down-firing cylinder) and the PB12-NSD (front-firing box) as far as sound is concerned? Just in case the felty material look doesn't grow on me. Thanks for all of your opinions!

 

[Adam]

Congrats! I'm happy that you're liking your new sub (well, the sound of it, anyway ).

Regarding the settings (gain, phase, crossover, and output level), the appropriateness of that depends on your room. If you have it level matched with the other speakers, then the gain and output level are good. As for the crossover, 80 Hz is a great starting point (it's the THX recommendation) - one note, though, is to set the crossover on the sub itself higher than what you are using in the Yamaha or (better yet) set the crossover switch to "disabled." The "correct" phase setting is dependent on your room and where you have the sub placed in your room. You can always experiment with it to see what sounds better to you, if you can even tell a difference. Optimally, you'd use a set of test tones that sweep through the bass frequencies and an SPL meter to check out the response of the sub over frequency. That response could help you decide on a phase setting. If you feel like doing that, great. If not, no worries - just set it to what sounds good to you!

As for the cloth, I hear ya. I'm looking at mine right now. For me, it looked better in person than how I had imagined it. I've unpacked two of those, and the cloth was more matted down on the second one. The cardboard around the cloth had pressed down on it and also had rubbed against it. I don't know if yours came out like that, but if so, you can "refresh" it. Erik at SVS recommended a stiff brush, if I recall correctly. I think that I just used my hands to rub the cloth and align the fibers. I've also vacuumed mine using one of my vacuums attachments, and that worked just fine. The cloth on mine was also a bit loose at the top, and I was able to pretty easily get it tightened by pulling my hands down the sides (from top to bottom) and moving the cloth wrap further down to the base.