Speaker Wire Snake Oil - need some help

[Cpt.America]

So, I have this friend/work acquantance who is some what of an audiophile. I think most of his gear is around 10 years old, but he has some experience in higher end audio stuff, and has some decent gear. Every once in a while we will get into a conversation about something audio related, like some new jazz or rock artist we like... speaker selections.. or whatever.

Anyway, yesterday we started talking about speaker wire, HDMI cables, etc... and I figured out that this guy is drowning in Snake Oil. He won't really say the specifics, but he has definitly invested some cash into some really expensive speaker cables. So when I tried to educate him on cable selections, and of course speaker wire snake oil, he fought back like a cornered cat. He just refuses to believe that he might of wasted money on really expensive cables. Unfortunately for me, I am not super articulate when it comes to laying out the facts for him... so I tried to find some articles on the web for him to read. I found a couple decent ones, but he of course shot those down as well. He literally told me that doing a blind test between two sets of speaker wires would be a flawed way to test speaker cables. He says that when he changes them out on his own, he can always hear the better cables. I told HIM, that knowing which cable you have just hooked up, automatically introduces some pre-existing bias into your listening, and he just brushes me off as an idiot.

So my question for help is, can you guys point me to some REALLY good articles about this subject? Perhaps an artical from a critical listener, with a REALLY good blind test? something I can really smack him with? I need some REAL and SOLID results.

Thanks

 

[Matt34]

So, I have this friend/work acquantance who is some what of an audiophile. I think most of his gear is around 10 years old, but he has some experience in higher end audio stuff, and has some decent gear. Every once in a while we will get into a conversation about something audio related, like some new jazz or rock artist we like... speaker selections.. or whatever.

Anyway, yesterday we started talking about speaker wire, HDMI cables, etc... and I figured out that this guy is drowning in Snake Oil. He won't really say the specifics, but he has definitly invested some cash into some really expensive speaker cables. So when I tried to educate him on cable selections, and of course speaker wire snake oil, he fought back like a cornered cat. He just refuses to believe that he might of wasted money on really expensive cables. Unfortunately for me, I am not super articulate when it comes to laying out the facts for him... so I tried to find some articles on the web for him to read. I found a couple decent ones, but he of course shot those down as well. He literally told me that doing a blind test between two sets of speaker wires would be a flawed way to test speaker cables. He says that when he changes them out on his own, he can always hear the better cables. I told HIM, that knowing which cable you have just hooked up, automatically introduces some pre-existing bias into your listening, and he just brushes me off as an idiot.

So my question for help is, can you guys point me to some REALLY good articles about this subject? Perhaps an artical from a critical listener, with a REALLY good blind test? something I can really smack him with?

Thanks

Audioholics has done some pretty in depth articles about speaker wire and is backed up with some research that is a bit over my head.

Search the main page and you should find it.

 

[phlakvest]

Some people can't be convinced that cheap cables could possibly be as good as their $20k cables. Sometimes its better to let them pay the stupid tax and move on.

The same logic that applies to budget systems applies to over priced systems.
"If your happy with it, then thats all that really matters."


If you choose to keep arguing. There are several links here.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/

 

[markw]

You can lead a horse to water...

...but you can't make him drink.

Audioholics has done some pretty in depth articles about speaker wire and is backed up with some research that is a bit over my head.

Search the main page and you should find it.

Great stuff here, but I'm pretty sure that his buddy can come up with enough glowing reviews of some trendy cable, albiet filled with untestable, subjective hyperbole. I can even offer him a cable forum on an insane asylum that will fill his head so full of sweet nothings that he won't be able to tell day from night.

Logic aside, people will seek out the truth that they choose to believe, not what is.

 

[zhimbo]

He literally told me that doing a blind test between two sets of speaker wires would be a flawed way to test speaker cables.

This is the thing I've never understood. What possible problem is there to having someone else change the wires instead of you?

 

[10010011]

He literally told me that doing a blind test between two sets of speaker wires would be a flawed way to test speaker cables. He says that when he changes them out on his own, he can always hear the better cables.

You can't help people like this.

Save yourself the frustration...

 

[jamie2112]

You can't argue with people like this. Let him buy his overpriced cables.

 

[j_garcia]

All you have to do is ask him to compare his expensive cables to some basic wire of the same AWG. Wire does influence the system, but only very slightly. There is also a difference between speaker wire and interconnects. Interconnects can play a somewhat larger role in system sound, however that is again only a small percentage of influence in the typical system.

This is about the best thing you could send someone with respect to wire:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

 

[Cpt.America]

Thanks guys, and just for the record, there is no arguing or frustration... I really like the guy and want to help him.

This is about the best thing you could send someone with respect to wire:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Ironically, this is the main artical I sent him the other day. He completely shot it down. He says that even though you can do things like measure impedance, volts, etc... you cannot measure the quality of the sound with those machines... bla bla bla. So I told him, that these things are commonly backed up with really well done blind listening tests... etc... that is when he tried to come back with the flaws in blind listening tests. He really doesn't believe in pre-existing bias'.

Anybody have that artical or thread post about when the MIT cable guys failed the blind test with their own cables? I think that's a good one, I just can't find it.

 

[j_garcia]

I know a few here have links to that info. MIT cables never impressed me

I think I found it:

The nice folks from MIT cables asked us to do an A-B test of their $1500 a pair super cables with great big boxes built into the speaker lines. We set up a true double blind test comparing the MIT cables with the ones I was using, especially modified 16 gauge zip cord from Home Depot (especially modified by me - cut to the correct length to reach from the amp to the speakers - very important!! ).

The results, ran three tests with all listeners sent out of the room and the setup changed by one of my guys who did not take part in the listening tests. There were four guys from MIT, me, Jim Salk, his wife Mary, and a couple of interested bystanders. We held the test just after the show ended on Sunday afternoon.

The instructions to the hookup guy were to either change or not change the cables. The amp volume control was not touched, we listened to the same cut, the first on on the Shelby Lynne album, "Just a Little Lovin'". We were using my Insight Control amplifier and Insight DAC and Jim's new ribbon tweeter version of the Songtowers. It was as very high definition, transparent, dynamic, and wide range system.

After the first two sessions, in which the cables may or may not have been changed and who knows which were started with, I instructed my guy to definitely swap to the other cables for the third session. Again no listener knew which they were listening to.

We listened a third time, and then voted. In a nutshell, the first session received zero votes. The voting was essentially split between session two and three with the vote divided between the two about equally and among both the MIT guys and the AVA - Salk guys.

Then the moment of truth. The first session was MIT cables. The second session was also MIT cables (nothing changed). The third session was my $2.00 zip wire speaker cables.

The results (just as I would have expected) RANDOM!

I do admit than when I voted, and I voted last, I said that the differences, if any, were very very small, and that I thought that session two (MIT cables) were slightly better than session one (MIT cables), and that I thought that session two was slightly better than session three (zip wires). I was as random as anyone else there.

So, given the price of the MIT cables ($1500) and the AVA Insight Control Amp ($1500), a buyer could have made the same budget choice of buying Jims's speakers ($2400) and our Insight control amp to drive them, along with some zip cord speaker wire, or buy the speakers and the MIT cables, and no amplifier at all!

Given the results of the test, which would you choose.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

 

[markw]

Some things ya just gotta do yourself.

Why don't YOU do a blind test with him?

It doesn't haveto be to osophisticated, As long as he can't see whicch cables are hooked up to the speakers you'e fine.

Simply run two speaker cables from the same amp terminals, ala bi-wire (that's another story ) and only have one connected at a time.

Do try to keep them about the same klangth and gusge, though.

Have anothe buddy behind the other speaker and switch them (or not) and have said golden ears write doen which he's listening toat any given time.

Of course, you keep track of which one he's listening to as well. Betcha he's mighty disappointed.

Naturally, he'll have some bs excuse why he couldn't get it right al lthe time, but you all will know the real story.

If he won't believe his own ears, all hope is lost.

 

[Alex2507]

Just in case you needed help getting them from A/V University:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/

Your friend will more than likely know more than the folks who wrote those articles so my guess is that you're not gonna be able to reach him. You don't happen to have any degrees in electro-acoustic mumbo jumbo do you? The authors of those articles probably do and Audioholics' fearless leader (Gene) does for sure.

Look at it like this; if your friend wanted to know, he would know. Just because your friend gets his info from sales ads doesn't mean his soul is doomed. You can't save 'em all.

 

[j_garcia]

One thing that I found odd was that AH seems to be generally anti-expensive cables, yet on the AH Store I saw some interconnects selling for a few hundred bones $$.

 

[strube]

One thing that I found odd was that AH seems to be generally anti-expensive cables, yet on the AH Store I saw some interconnects selling for a few hundred bones $$.

Just out of curiosity, were your Audioquest cables super expensive? I know a dealer nearby that tried to sell me some for $1000/ft when I bought my Rotel, and I regrettably declined and bought Liberty wire.

EDIT: After reading my post, it seems like it could be construed as a veiled criticism considering the thread, but I assure you I am just curious and mean no disrespect!

 

[mtrycrafts]

As others have said in essence, he has to discover it for himself and he is not interested. If he is a good friend, don't try to convince him about any of his snake oil audiophile beliefs. Just be friends, listen to music, watch movies and forget the conversion. Doesn't work.
If and when he wants to see the light, then that is your day

 

[highfigh]

So, I have this friend/work acquantance who is some what of an audiophile. I think most of his gear is around 10 years old, but he has some experience in higher end audio stuff, and has some decent gear. Every once in a while we will get into a conversation about something audio related, like some new jazz or rock artist we like... speaker selections.. or whatever.

Anyway, yesterday we started talking about speaker wire, HDMI cables, etc... and I figured out that this guy is drowning in Snake Oil. He won't really say the specifics, but he has definitly invested some cash into some really expensive speaker cables. So when I tried to educate him on cable selections, and of course speaker wire snake oil, he fought back like a cornered cat. He just refuses to believe that he might of wasted money on really expensive cables. Unfortunately for me, I am not super articulate when it comes to laying out the facts for him... so I tried to find some articles on the web for him to read. I found a couple decent ones, but he of course shot those down as well. He literally told me that doing a blind test between two sets of speaker wires would be a flawed way to test speaker cables. He says that when he changes them out on his own, he can always hear the better cables. I told HIM, that knowing which cable you have just hooked up, automatically introduces some pre-existing bias into your listening, and he just brushes me off as an idiot.

So my question for help is, can you guys point me to some REALLY good articles about this subject? Perhaps an artical from a critical listener, with a REALLY good blind test? something I can really smack him with? I need some REAL and SOLID results.

Thanks

A blind test is the only real way to find out if one sound better than the other. Knowing which is more expensive will always cause the listener to form a subjective conclusion.

I'm not sure it's worth arguing about. Even if you convince him that he wasted his money, he's not going to be a happy camper.

 

[j_garcia]

Just out of curiosity, were your Audioquest cables super expensive? I know a dealer nearby that tried to sell me some for $1000/ft when I bought my Rotel, and I regrettably declined and bought Liberty wire.

EDIT: After reading my post, it seems like it could be construed as a veiled criticism considering the thread, but I assure you I am just curious and mean no disrespect!

I always try to buy things like that used or on extreme sales. The AQ cables were originally over priced at MSRP, but I didn't pay full price for them Just have to know how and where to shop. One thing that I like about them is that the connectors are actually fused to the wire rather than crimped, though I doubt it makes any difference in terms of sound

 

[Waveform]

After careful research I have found that interconnects and speaker cables sound different (more expensive ones are ALWAYS better) only when the test CDs have the green marker mod done, and the CD player elevated with Shakti stones.

 

[j_garcia]

After careful research I have found that interconnects and speaker cables sound different (more expensive ones are ALWAYS better) only when the test CDs have the green marker mod done, and the CD player elevated with Shakti stones.

Also when you place beaks on them: http://www.affordableaudio.org/TotemBeaks.pdf

 

[Cpt.America]

Also when you place beaks on them: http://www.affordableaudio.org/TotemBeaks.pdf

Those are awesome! I bet i could fix a dozen on top of each of my 5 speakers! Then they would REALLY be balanced