New science on placebo effect

[Swerd]

One of the 2008 Ig Nobel Prizes was awarded for showing that expensive placebo medicine works better than cheap placebo medicine.

RL Waber, B Shiv, Z Carmon, & D Ariely Journal of the American Medical Association vol 299: pp1016-17

82 paid volunteers were recruited to test a new pain killer. Half of the volunteers were told the pain killer cost $2.50 a pill, and the other half were told it cost 10¢ a pill. All volunteers took identical placebo pills and all were paid $30.

Each participant received electrical shocks to the wrist to calibrate to each participant’s maximum pain tolerance. After calibration, participants received the test shocks, and rated their pain on a scale from "no pain at all" to "the worst pain imaginable". Participants received all possible shocks in 2.5-V increments between 0 V and their calibrated tolerance. Stimulation at each intensity level was carried out twice for each participant (before and after taking the pill), and the change in reaction to the stimulation was assessed. See the attached graph for the results.

I thought the speaker cable companies showed this a long time ago, that expensive copper wires “sounded better” than cheap copper wires. In fact, they make a good living depending on this. Monster Cable should sue the Ig Nobel selection committee .

 

[Adam]

Personally, I just think that the people who were paying $2.50/pill began to develop a higher pain threshold, and that's what the chart is showing. After all, the more that you get punched in the produce (metaphorically speaking, of course), the less it bothers you. Take work for example...or $4/gallon gas.

 

[Swerd]

Personally, I just think that the people who were paying $2.50/pill began to develop a higher pain threshold, and that's what the chart is showing. After all, the more that you get punched in the produce (metaphorically speaking, of course), the less it bothers you. Take work for example...or $4/gallon gas.

The participants didn't pay anything for the pills. They were all paid $30 for volunteering.

 

[Adam]

The participants didn't pay anything for the pills. They were all paid $30 for volunteering.

I was just joking, but I do appreciate the clarification. I misread it and thought that they got paid $30 but then had to pay for the pills out of that.

 

[Swerd]

I was just joking, but I do appreciate the clarification. I misread it and thought that they got paid $30 but then had to pay for the pills out of that.

Now I get what you meant earlier. Sorry if I made it sound confusing.

 

[haraldo]

Now this is very very very interesting indeed, makes me really wonder how the human brain works, sometimes I guess it doesn't work at all....

Heard that something that the strongest force in the universe is to make somebody believe in something, wll now there is a nobel prize proving some of this....

Does that mean we can all go out and sell cheap copper wire for $10.000/feet, coz everybody will actually believe that it's better (Except for the fellow Audioholics of course)......

Somebody wants to make some of this cable and send to Audiophyte Mikey Fremer for a review? he he he

-Harald

 

[10010011]

Wasn't this same higher price = better phenomenon recently proven with wines too?

I recall reading about a test where wine drinkers were given two samples of the exact same wine but were told one was more expensive and the majority thought the "more expensive" wine tasted better.

Yup I found it

Study: $90 wine tastes better than the same wine at $10

 

[Swerd]

Thanks for that. That's two independent examples (pain killers and wine taste) confirming that price enhances perception. Wait - speaker cables make that three. I think we have a real trend here.

 

[sploo]

The problem is - none of it (the results) really matters, because people will still swear blind that their fancy cable (or other quasi-scientific enhancement) makes a big difference.

I've learned over the years that if someone's decided that it makes a difference, you can show them all the evidence in the world, and a great many will still deny it. I had a discussion with a guy at an audio show once where he was claiming improvements due to something that simply didn't have any foundation in the laws of physics. Even explaining to him that the manufacturer should be getting a Nobel science prize if their claims were true, he still felt he'd spent his money well. Confirmation bias is alive and well.

The best we can do is hope to rescue the open minded newbie, and just let the tweako guys throw their cash away; you're not going to change them!

 

[Adam]

Eh, it doesn't bother me. I figure that music and sound is all about enjoyment, and that enjoyment comes from (in the end) how our minds perceive it. If someone's mental perception is modified such that they gain greater enjoyment from something, whether the energy transmitted to their physical body is actually different or not, then good for that person.

 

[rnatalli]

I would suggest anyone interested in this subject to check out Robert Cialdini's book "The Power of Influence."

 

[Adam]

I would suggest anyone interested in this subject to check out Robert Cialdini's book "The Power of Influence."

Is that title correct? I can't find it. I've found a few different books that start with "Influence: ..." by him, plus a DVD entitled, "The Power of Persuasion".

Just asking because you have me curious. I see that he's just up the road at ASU.

 

[haraldo]

The best we can do is hope to rescue the open minded newbie, and just let the tweako guys throw their cash away; you're not going to change them!

Well if somebody spent $10k on some tweaks, I think no matter what, it will be hard to convince him/her that this tweak doesn't work, how many people out there will agree that they spent this money on something that doesn't work, it's like telling yourself.... I'm an idiot throwing $10k out the window....

Sometimes you may spend an insane amount to create something that meets some given design criteria... Like NASA spent millions to create the Fisher Space pen that can write upside down and without any kind of air pressure, in space. What did the russians do, they used a pencil, problem solved without any research whatsoever. The cheap solution works just as well, but doesn't look so good.

A $10k cable will probably always look better than a cheap one, and it will make the owner proud coz it looks like a $10k product. Yes, so all we can try is to be smart and rely on science and what can be proved, and anyone can be saved from the hi-fi hell....... I think......

Not everyone though, remember what happened when somebody here where critical to Stereophile, Mikey Fremer replied in this forum calling us by some of the worst names you can find in the dictionary. Some people can't be saved and some people have a very hard time with handling scientific truth (At least, that's my subjective opinion)

-Harald

 

[mtrycrafts]

One of the 2008 Ig Nobel Prizes was awarded for showing that expensive placebo medicine works better than cheap placebo medicine.

RL Waber, B Shiv, Z Carmon, & D Ariely Journal of the American Medical Association vol 299: pp1016-17

82 paid volunteers were recruited to test a new pain killer. Half of the volunteers were told the pain killer cost $2.50 a pill, and the other half were told it cost 10¢ a pill. All volunteers took identical placebo pills and all were paid $30.

Each participant received electrical shocks to the wrist to calibrate to each participant’s maximum pain tolerance. After calibration, participants received the test shocks, and rated their pain on a scale from "no pain at all" to "the worst pain imaginable". Participants received all possible shocks in 2.5-V increments between 0 V and their calibrated tolerance. Stimulation at each intensity level was carried out twice for each participant (before and after taking the pill), and the change in reaction to the stimulation was assessed. See the attached graph for the results.

I thought the speaker cable companies showed this a long time ago, that expensive copper wires “sounded better” than cheap copper wires. In fact, they make a good living depending on this. Monster Cable should sue the Ig Nobel selection committee .

Interesting, but...

There was a similar DBT testing of wines with the only known info is the cost.
Same results as above, even when the cheap wine had 3 different price tags

 

[Alex2507]

Eh, it doesn't bother me. I figure that music and sound is all about enjoyment, and that enjoyment comes from (in the end) how our minds perceive it. If someone's mental perception is modified such that they gain greater enjoyment from something, whether the energy transmitted to their physical body is actually different or not, then good for that person.

The problem lies in the fact that people have limited budgets. When false claims are unchallenged, normal people end up spending a portion of their limited budgets on something that is useless as far as the pursuit of sound quality is concerned. That is a case of the blind leading the blind.

When vendors make outrageous claims, I consider that thievery. I would like it better if they would grow some balls and try robbing me in person. There is a certain honesty in a good old fashioned stick up.
At least the stick up men don't make a monkey out of you ...

 

[Rickster71]

It's all about perception.
You could apply these dbt's to politicians too.
Instead of price, substitute the politician's public persona, or charisma.
The public assumes, the more charisma the better politician.

 

[Alex2507]

It's all about perception.

You can measure the frequency response of a speaker in a room but you can't make a politician take a lie detector test.

With audio equipment each of us picks what we want to pay for and listen to. There is never a case of picking and paying for B&W but somehow ending up with Bose in your living room.

If this gets too political I think I'll opt for the $2.50 placebo and start administering electrical shocks to myself.

 

[Rickster71]

You can measure the frequency response of a speaker in a room but you can't make a politician take a lie detector test.

I understand your point. Though that is why Bose doesn't send their product out for review, and doesn't publish frequency response charts. They keep it all about 'Perceived Quality.'

With audio equipment each of us picks what we want to pay for and listen to. There is never a case of picking and paying for B&W but somehow ending up with Bose in your living room.

It seems like people that go by perception only, think that Bose is as good or better than B&W.

 

[haraldo]

When vendors make outrageous claims, I consider that thievery. I would like it better if they would grow some balls and try robbing me in person. There is a certain honesty in a good old fashioned stick up.
At least the stick up men don't make a monkey out of you ...

yeah, at least somebody that sticks a gun to your head robs you in a fair way, well ... at least you know that you're robbed.... not like the cable robbers that cheat you by pretending to sell something they don't have.....

 

[no. 5]

The problem is - none of it (the results) really matters, because people will still swear blind that their fancy cable (or other quasi-scientific enhancement) makes a big difference.

Well, the results show such things can make a big difference, but only in the listeners head; people will swear they hear an improvement with a fancy cable because they do, it is their imagination, but they hear it nonetheless.