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Tegguy

Audioholic Intern
I currently have a Denon 7.1 setup. I am looking to get some better speakers. I know I want the F3's as the fronts with a C2 center. My question is on the rears. I have been talking to a few people I work with at bestbuy and I am trying to decide between the S2 and the F2. I know the F2 is designed to be a front speaker but one guy says it will give better full range of sound. I need some advice and opinions about this though. I eventually will run a 12" Klipsh sub and a new reciever but for now I am going to stick with the denon sub and reciever (75 watts per channel) I am just looking for a 5.1 setup right now but my other question was that if I went with the 7.1 setup what would be the best choice of speakers for all 4 rears? My other delima right now is the S2's are meant for wall mount and I cannot right now where I live but that is not going to have an effect on my decision. Any advice would be great.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Why limit yourself to speakers of such mediocrity, when you can do far better for the money? About the only thing 'special' those speakers can do compared to many others, is a bit higher SPL. Their one and only advantage. Otherwise, they are incredibly resonant and have extreme poor off axis response(both of these are very important parameters for perceived sound quality by humans, especially in regular roooms/listening environments).

-Chris
 
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Tegguy

Audioholic Intern
I can get these cheaper than retail. I can get the F3's for 170 a speaker the F2's for 130 a Speaker and the S2's for about 150 a pair. The C2 will cost me about 100 bucks and the 12 Sub will cost me about 200. Do you have any recommendations for the same price range? I am open to suggestions but for the price I thought the Klipsh were the best I could do.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Frankly, a set of Behringer B2030P, all the way around, would be far better in terms of fidelity. These will have much lower cabinet resonance, and have extreme improved off axis response(on and off axis response is nearly identical, even up to 15kHz). These are 130/pair. Yeah, it sounds ridiculously low in price. But I have extensive knowledge of speaker systems, relevant measured behaviors and correlation of such to human perception; it's my primary area of interest. I would not have believed it myself if I had not measured/examined a pair. Not only is the measured behavior far beyond expectation, so is the build quality of the cabinet and drivers and crossover. Now, there is a manufacturing flaw on the Behringers(you can find flaws on most things if you look hard enough). There is an air breach where the tweeter connects to the front waveguide. This is easily fixed with some inexpensive speaker gasket putty. remove 8 screws to take off the front waveguide, then place the putty between the tweeter and the waveguide. Easy. Quick. While you are at it, you could also use some liquid superglue and apply it to the seam between the woofer's magnetic shielding can and motor. Like most lower cost speakers(this is not limited to this model or brand), the can can rattle/vibrate because is it only crimped into place. By adding a thin glue in the opening, this vibration potential will be eliminated.

These will not get as loud as the Klipsche, of course. But with a 100 watt per channel receiver, they will achieve more than sufficient SPLs in a normal size room.

You need to cross these speakers at 75 to 85 Hz range. You need to use at least two subwoofers; one near each left and right main channels, if you want seamless bass response/integration for music playback. For movies, it won't matter much.

-Chris
 
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Tegguy

Audioholic Intern
Wow reading your post makes me realise just how out of the loop I am on this stuff and the terminology. The only problem I see with those speakers is my next reciever will probably be 130 watts or so. I would be worried about blowing those speakers out. The other thing is they are not floor standing so I would have to purchase something to be able to put them on. Is there anything else you might be able to recommend that is floor standing at least for the fronts. And also can someone answer my actual questions in the post. I am open to suggestions however I would like to get my questions answered also. Also can someone recommend where I can go to start learning about this stuff?
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Wow reading your post makes me realise just how out of the loop I am on this stuff and the terminology. The only problem I see with those speakers is my next reciever will probably be 130 watts or so. I would be worried about blowing those speakers out. The other thing is they are not floor standing so I would have to purchase something to be able to put them on. Is there anything else you might be able to recommend that is floor standing at least for the fronts. And also can someone answer my actual questions in the post. I am open to suggestions however I would like to get my questions answered also. Also can someone recommend where I can go to start learning about this stuff?
130 watts can not blow those speakers out. You could safely use 300 watts, if you set the crossover at 85 Hz, and you would not blow them 'out' with music program.

As for setting them on something: plant stands are cheap and come in all sorts of designs. They make great speaker stands.

I can not recommend a floor stander that will come close to equaling the value of these. Combine these with twin subs as I specified, using the active crossover in your receiver, and they will effectively be 3 ways(with modular bass units). You could even use the subs as partial stands, and get a short 1'-1.5' foot object to place between them to get the tweeters to ear height.

-Chris
 
T

Tegguy

Audioholic Intern
And also can someone answer my actual questions in the post
Thanks for the advice. What would you use as a center channel speaker? and what subs? Can you answer my original questions by chance? I am also a little iffy on buying speakers I can't hear in person first.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks for the advice. What would you use as a center channel speaker? and what subs? Can you answer my original questions by chance? I am also a little iffy on buying speakers I can't hear in person first.
Well, I'm sorry that I did not answer your questions. I was trying to provide alternative, superior solutions, that are at the same time, cheaper.

As for the center; you would use the same speaker. For the best sound quality, you will use the same speaker for the L, R and C channels. The center channels being different, is only for cosmetics -- they are functionally inferior in most cases as compared to using the same speaker for the center channels as is used for the Left and Right channels.

I can't recommend subwoofers until you specify a budget for them.

-Chris
 
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Tegguy

Audioholic Intern
I understand and I appriciate the alternative solutions. The biggest thing I was trying to get out of this was is there a big difference in runing a front speaker in the rear? Like in my case the F2 vs S3 or S2 for the rear?

And I understand I am new to this world and am having a tough time learning and I appricate people who have time to offer different solutions and ideas. Cause all I have to go off is what my friends have (F3's) and they really like them and the people I work with also like them but thats about the highest end stuff the town I am in has to offer.
 
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Tegguy

Audioholic Intern
What if I stepped up to the reference series? Like the RF-82 Fronts RC-62 Center and Either RS-52 or RF-62 for the rear?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I understand and I appriciate the alternative solutions. The biggest thing I was trying to get out of this was is there a big difference in runing a front speaker in the rear? Like in my case the F2 vs S3 or S2 for the rear?

And I understand I am new to this world and am having a tough time learning and I appricate people who have time to offer different solutions and ideas. Cause all I have to go off is what my friends have (F3's) and they really like them and the people I work with also like them but thats about the highest end stuff the town I am in has to offer.
Well, if you are that nervous about it, then maybe it is best if you just go with the Klipsche. As for running a front speaker for the rear - there is no need. The surround sound effects are not nearly as demanding as the 3 front speakers. You can use much lesser rear speakers with no substantial reduction in overall sound quality. Just cross them high enough to prevent over-excursion based distortion.

-Chris
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
What if I stepped up to the reference series? Like the RF-82 Fronts RC-62 Center and Either RS-52 or RF-62 for the rear?
Well, the reference series do have a bit cleaner sound. I don't personally think they can match the sound quality of a B2030P set up with stereo subs, but the Klipsche will certainly go louder, quite a bit louder, due to their very high efficiency rating.

-Chris
 
C

calnbs

Audioholic
I have been reading this forum for awhile and definately have a lot of respect to what WmAx have to say.

What is your current budget for speakers and subwoofer? Maybe we can offer you other options as well.
 
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Tegguy

Audioholic Intern
Right now I don't have a budget I was looking to spend 600 on the 2 fronts and 2 rears (if I bought the f2's for the rear) cause they were a good price. If I was giong to do it right now I would spend 700 on all 5 and purchas a sub and reciever later. So would the F2's make a bad rear speaker or is it just not needed?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Right now I don't have a budget I was looking to spend 600 on the 2 fronts and 2 rears (if I bought the f2's for the rear) cause they were a good price. If I was giong to do it right now I would spend 700 on all 5 and purchas a sub and reciever later. So would the F2's make a bad rear speaker or is it just not needed?
Well, if the objective is top sound quality within the budget, compared to the options I have listed, they Klipsche units are definately bad choices. :D The Klipsche have incredibly high output cabinets - that probably produce more acoustic output over the total surface are as compared to the drivers themselves. In addition, combined with the extremely poor off axis response, I can't consider them useful for anything besides party speakers(they are GREAT for this because of their high efficiency/SPL capability) and HT(home theater simply is not nearly as demanding as music reproduction in the mid-range and treble bands). If all you care about is HT and listening to poorly recorded modern(i.e.;produced in the last 5-7 years) hard rock, rap or heavy metal.(which is almost always horribly mastered - and the Klipsche will actually help mask this poor quality to an extent in the midrange, even though the Klipsche treble may still accentuate the digital clipping problems)

-Chris
 
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adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
What if I stepped up to the reference series? Like the RF-82 Fronts RC-62 Center and Either RS-52 or RF-62 for the rear?
Now we're talking... you can probably find a half a dozen posts of mine that says to stay away from anything klipsch that isnt from their reference series... Honestly, probably no *need* to use floorstanders as rears but you could.. The 82's, the RC62 and RS52's make a nice theater. DONT BUY A KLIPSCH SUB. Even their reference subs present a poor value... Keep in mind that i like the Klipsch stuff for HT but I'm not sold on the music aspects.

As far as Chris's suggestion.. He knows his stuff and i've read many of his posts that recommend the berhinger monitor.. I have been so close so many times to ordering a pair. In fact.. its in the near future.. I'm just so afraid of opening a can of worms. :confused::eek:
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
and the Klipsche will actually help mask this poor quality to an extent in the midrange, even though the Klipsche treble may still accentuate the digital clipping problems[/I])

-Chris
Chris, I'm curious about this statement and would love an elaboration... The word "mask" struck me the wrong way i guess... Most "complaints" are that the Klipsch speakers are too revealing and "expose" poor recordings. Dont get me wrong, I think I know what you are saying but I don't want to put words in your mouth...

Klipsch has a midrange? :p I'm only kidding...
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Chris, I'm curious about this statement and would love an elaboration... The word "mask" struck me the wrong way i guess... Most "complaints" are that the Klipsch speakers are too revealing and "expose" poor recordings. Dont get me wrong, I think I know what you are saying but I don't want to put words in your mouth...

Klipsch has a midrange? :p I'm only kidding...
This effect that you describe is the tweeter being prominent. Due to it's very directive treble, the treble is less effected by room acoustics, and in addition, the treble is either flat or slightly raised in level. This would make high frequency artifacts a little more noticeable, such as digital clipping, which I mentioned in a prior post. The mid-range is masked, however, which is primarily due to the very poor cabinets on the Klipsche(and this extends to the Reference line as well) which have tremendous acoustic output. But realize, most speakers are very resonant.

-Chris
 
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cbraver

Audioholic Chief
I think the Behringers are powered, so, wouldn't he just connect them to the pre-outs? Doesn't the P stand for power? Or am I think of another speaker?
 

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