Blu-ray's Field of Dreams

A

admin

Audioholics Robot
Staff member
There are two ways to get people to buy your product - offer something innovative and groundbreaking or sell cheap. According to TGDaily, the Blu-ray Disc Association missed that day in marketing school. According to Andy Parsons, the Chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association, prices aren't going to decline any time soon. To blame... YOU for not buying enough.


Discuss "Blu-ray's Field of Dreams" here. Read the article.
 
A

armaraas

Full Audioholic
I read that earlier today and wondered the heck that guy was smoking.
If you want to sell more, lower your prices- it's not that hard to understand. I bought a ps3 recently, I figure if blu-ray isn't doing so hot in a few years I'll just tell everyone I bought it for the games...

And so far I have yet to buy a blu-ray movie. I'm tempted, but locally most of the movies are $20 or more even on sale, and I have a hard time paying that much for one movie anymore. I have a subscription to blockbuster online, so I'm just renting for now (assuming bb will raise their monthly price eventually for br's, they're already shipping slower now that I selected br as my default format).
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Don't forget, these executives are the same people who believe that a person earning $100,000 a year as an individual is representative of "lower middle class".

They are so completely out of touch that they believe $600 for a player and $30 for a single disc ought to be considered "cheap" by the buying public.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Everytime I read an outtake from the statement it screams that people who write commentaries on websites are clueless.

The BDA had a projected growth from 2% revenue share of optical discs, to 8% revenue during 2008. With 3 months to go, and the busiest selling season coming up, they are currently selling about 6% of total revenue for opitical discs, representing a three fold growth, and target numbers which are dead on, if not ahead of schedule by years end.

The BDA is following the path of technologies before it, and is following a growth pattern which is also consistent.

Tom, I'm afraid we aren't seeing prices drop because the consumers are in fact buying what is out there at the prices they are currently at. They are doing so in numbers which don't touch DVD, but are consistent with the growth of the product which they wish to achieve.

This may shock many, but the article is specific, and it does not blame consumers. It says that there aren't enough players out there yet to really bring prices down, but it is not at all saying that at current prices, Blu-ray isn't selling. It also doesn't say that the BDA or CEs are upset with the way BD players are currently selling.

Economics 101 says that when you have a product in limited quantity, that you want to maximize profits on, you do so at the highest possible price the market will support at that time.

Guess what? The BDA isn't forcing anyone to buy, but people are still buying and the product has seen triple digit growth in 2008, in line with forcasts.

We (consumers) can complain if we want, but those are the same complains that went along with DVD at the same point of the DVD life cycle.

Surely some people can actually read this quote and see that is EXACTLY what was said and implied:
Parsons was speaking as part of a panel on high-definition formats and told the audience that Blu-ray hardware and disc prices are behaving the same as when DVD players were first getting popular. “There’s not enough market [volume] to lower the price,” Parsons said, adding that companies have to build “awareness and demand for the technology," before prices can decrease.
From: http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/39347/97/

Note: That quote is still partial instead of a complete text, in proper context, for what was said. Also, it was said at an INDUSTRY convention, where there is a vested interest in keeping player & software prices high so profits are maximized.

Don't get me wrong, but 2 years ago, it was $1,000 for a Blu-ray player that was 1.0 and incredibly slow. Now the $230 player may be considered 'off brand' but it is also getting pretty decent feedback overall compared to the very first players...

http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/insignia-ns-brdvd/4505-6463_7-33189493.html?tag=mncol;lst

So, for 1/4 the price of 2 years ago, I can get better performance? Isn't that 'prices dropping'?

Yes, discs are still high, but sales are out there, and I don't have an issue paying $5 or $10 more for a movie that has stellar video and audio - at this time. Keep in mind I only buy 5-10 movies a year typically, which is WAY more than the average DVD consumer purchases.

I think that some people are hot to dis' Blu-ray instead of actually making themselves knowledgable about what expectations were, what the current sales levels are, and what we will likely see in the next few months for sales.

Do I want prices to drop? Of course I do! But, do I expect them to before Blu-ray hits 20% or so of optical disc revenues and guarantees about 1,000,000 discs sold on every major film? Nope, I don't forsee that for at least a year. Next holiday season? Yes, I see some sales and maybe a 20% price drop or more on software.
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
I'm not so much concerned about the price of the players. I'd rather pay more for quality but I want to be sure I'm buying something that won't be obsolete in a year or two. (If I had any interest in any games for the PS3 I'd probably buy one and wait for something better to come along.)

My real objection is to the price of the media. I probably own around 300 DVDs and the vast majority were $15 or less. The only times I've spent more than $20 on a disc was because it was something from Criterion or something I really wanted.

Since I've never seen or heard a BD, I'm okay with my upscaled DVDs. I can get a lot more DVDs for a C-note than BDs.

Maybe there is something to the economy of scale. SACDs are pretty much a niche format now but they are not double the price of CDs, usually. Since SACDs use DVD media, there are probably more stampers running for them. If demand picks up, maybe there will be more stampers running for BDs. I wish they would try to grow the market faster so the media prices would come down.

Jim
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Jim, as long as you are no longer buying DVDs, Id say that's cool, b/c then IMO you aren't wasting your money. The difference is pretty huge, IMO. So much so, I haven't watched a DVD since last year.

I only have, guessing, 30 DVDs. I think not a single one was bought new, but all as used. However, I have no problem at all paying $20 for a new BD.

Never having a heard a true SACD or DVDA (only hybrid SACD once or twice, I think perhaps Mahler sym 7 and Monk's Brilliant Corners), it wouldn't surprise me if the difference between BD: DVD was much greater than CD:SACD.

If you're not concerned about the price of the player, you could always rent, right? Perhaps check out an Insignia player from BB, and if its not worth it, you can return it. I have a strong feeling you would keep it though.
 
S

Sus Ano

Audiophyte
I have browsed here a few times but I felt I had to sign up to respond to this editorial.

A quick check of the Audioholics homepage finds ads for emotiva, dayton, and axiom. The featured reviews at the top of the page are for the Oppo 983 and the Yamaha Soavo-1.

I guess I have to ask where are the editorials arguing that "John Q. Public needs to be convinced their $40 speakers, $25 dvd players, and built in amplifiers are not good enough"?

Doesn't it seem a little odd for this website to be arguing that unless a product instantly appeals to J6P it is doomed? Isn't part of the reason for Audioholics to look at products that might cost more but offer an increase in quality? Why are a $1700 pair of Salk SongTower seen as offering good value and performance - are they innovative and groundbreaking because they sure aren't cheap. And if Salks (or any of the other high end products reviewed and featured on this site) are not innovative, groundbreaking or cheap maybe there are MORE than two ways to sell products...

I could be wrong but it seems like a number of editors on this website seem to hold blu-ray to a strangely inconsistent standard. Maybe they want blu-ray to be HUGELY successful (almost instantly) and see their comments as constructive criticism. Maybe the idea of blu-ray succeeding kinda irritates them. But for a website that recommends a LOT of higher end products that John Q Public isn't going to buy and can't afford to suggest higher prices at this point mean blu-ray is going "hurry up and wait to die" just seems strange.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Good points, Sus Ano.

I wouldn't presume to be able to speak on behalf of the editors, but my own feelings may, perhaps, echo some of theirs, so I will share my own feelings as they may shed some light on the subject.

As a home theater enthusiast, the one thing that bothers me more than anything is that, despite the fact that I have such a strong interest in this industry, I essentially have extremely little influence upon it. As a collective, the most loyal, knowledgable and interested people wind up representing only a tiny percentage of the market as a whole.

In a nut shell, we - the A/V enthusiats and Audioholics - we want high quality! Here, we have this fantastic product: Blu-ray. But no matter how much we love it, no matter how much we buy it, we still represent only a tiny percentage of people and thus, we could lose this cherished format simply because "Joe six pack" aka "the mass market" doesn't care and doesn't adopt it.

When it comes to something like an entire format for distributing content, it absolutely HAS to be ubiquitous to survive. We've been subjected to LaserDisc, D-VHS, SACD, DVD-Audio, etc. All formats that were the peak of quality at their time, but utterly failed because the mass market did not care and did not buy them. The enthusiasts LOVED those formats. We bought them. We cared deeply, spent our money, trumpeted their virtues, but all to no avail.

Saying "Blu-ray is going to fail" is, perhaps, the enthusiasts cynical way of anticipating disappointment. Here, yet again, is a wonderful format. In fact, the best format we have ever seen and heard and been able to buy and use in our homes. But history has proven already that no matter how much we, the enthusiasts buy, no matter how much we care and champion the format, it all counts for naught if the mass market does not get on board!
 
dobyblue

dobyblue

Senior Audioholic
I have browsed here a few times but I felt I had to sign up to respond to this editorial.

A quick check of the Audioholics homepage finds ads for emotiva, dayton, and axiom. The featured reviews at the top of the page are for the Oppo 983 and the Yamaha Soavo-1.

I guess I have to ask where are the editorials arguing that "John Q. Public needs to be convinced their $40 speakers, $25 dvd players, and built in amplifiers are not good enough"?

Doesn't it seem a little odd for this website to be arguing that unless a product instantly appeals to J6P it is doomed? Isn't part of the reason for Audioholics to look at products that might cost more but offer an increase in quality? Why are a $1700 pair of Salk SongTower seen as offering good value and performance - are they innovative and groundbreaking because they sure aren't cheap. And if Salks (or any of the other high end products reviewed and featured on this site) are not innovative, groundbreaking or cheap maybe there are MORE than two ways to sell products...

I could be wrong but it seems like a number of editors on this website seem to hold blu-ray to a strangely inconsistent standard. Maybe they want blu-ray to be HUGELY successful (almost instantly) and see their comments as constructive criticism. Maybe the idea of blu-ray succeeding kinda irritates them. But for a website that recommends a LOT of higher end products that John Q Public isn't going to buy and can't afford to suggest higher prices at this point mean blu-ray is going "hurry up and wait to die" just seems strange.
Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. Excellent post and great points. The majority of editorials in this section of the forum that do not come from forum members have baffled me for over two years now.

The longer Blu-ray stays around and shows continued growth where DVD is slowly seeing lowered sales the more the "tech experts" and analysts look like fools.
 
I could be wrong but it seems like a number of editors on this website seem to hold blu-ray to a strangely inconsistent standard. Maybe they want blu-ray to be HUGELY successful (almost instantly) and see their comments as constructive criticism. Maybe the idea of blu-ray succeeding kinda irritates them. But for a website that recommends a LOT of higher end products that John Q Public isn't going to buy and can't afford to suggest higher prices at this point mean blu-ray is going "hurry up and wait to die" just seems strange.
I don't think that's the case at all. If anything we see ways the industry could be wildly successful but continue to shoot themselves in the foot... over and over...

As for these News & Editorial articles - it's always the same thing. Any time we report and comment on the news it's construed by the BD crowd (who flock here from various BD forums, check some of the posts counts) that we hate BD simply by the fact that we even discuss a topic/article critical of the format.

We love BD - period. We just have some observations and like to report on news that surrounds the format when it comes up - good or bad. The BDA has enough sycophants, it doesn't need one more.
 
Alamar

Alamar

Full Audioholic
That is a good point. If you care about something you may be harder on it [I.E. more critical of perceived issues] than something you are indifferent to ...

In this case being critical is much better than the alternative.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I don't think that's the case at all. If anything we see ways the industry could be wildly successful but continue to shoot themselves in the foot... over and over...

As for these News & Editorial articles - it's always the same thing. Any time we report and comment on the news it's construed by the BD crowd (who flock here from various BD forums, check some of the posts counts) that we hate BD simply by the fact that we even discuss a topic/article critical of the format.

We love BD - period. We just have some observations and like to report on news that surrounds the format when it comes up - good or bad. The BDA has enough sycophants, it doesn't need one more.
This site rarely presents any evidence whatsoever that it 'loves BD', in fact, the articles written typically indicate, at best, a pessimistic view of Blu-ray, and that stance was taken early on with the '10 Reasons Why HD Formats Have Already Failed' http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/10-reasons-why-high-definition-dvd-formats-have-already-failed/
and the follow up, along with about half a dozen more editorials, none of which actually seem to sing the praises of HD optical disc as a format.

Ignoring this most recent dig, let's look at the CEDIA floor coverage...
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high-definition-dvd-players-hd-dvd-blu-ray/state-of-blu-ray-cedia-2008

Which starts off mostly talking about how expensive players are, and asking when people will start to buy.

Likewise, when you go to http://www.audioholics.com/news/ and highlight the 'News & Opinions' tab, it includes a main tab dropdown link to this article...
http://www.audioholics.com/news/blu-ray-prognosis-samsung-five-years-bda-life-eternal/

The reviews of actual HD players, which can push out HD audio with 1080 video are almost non existent, and are almost always negative...
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high-definition-dvd-players-hd-dvd-blu-ray/sony-bdp-s300
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high-definition-dvd-players-hd-dvd-blu-ray/samsung-bd-p1000-high-definition-dvd-player-review

Yet, here is a $400 DVD player (in a world of sub $100 DVD players) which you consider a 5 star value product and 4.5 star performance product, yet it will never be able to deliver the quality of a single BD disc from a $229 Insignia player at 1080p/24.
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/dvd-players/oppo-dv-983h

If I am to believe that people at AH love BD, then why not go ahead and give a review of some of the current players on the market and hold their audio and video quality levels up against DVDs? Why not give some people a seroius look at the new players from Panasonic, Denon, Pioneer, Sony, Insignia (funai), and others?

Furthermore, for whatever reason, the fact that Blu-ray is on track to surpass 2008 forcasted sales figures seems to never be covered as newsworthy, and instead, an industry speaker at an industry event, speaking about how pricing is on track and not forcast to drop significantly, is taken out of context and turned into a negative by this, and a couple of other sites, notably Gizmodo which was heavily HD DVD supportive, and now turns to digital downloads as the real savior.

I'm not sure if you think people are stupid, in fact I know you don't, but the last thing this site has presented itself to say is "We love BD", at best, AH is skeptical, yet almost everything reads that AH doesn't like much of anything about the format at all.

BD is on track for 300% growth in a single year for software, and similar for hardware. We have seen an increase in performance, and nearly a 50% annual drop in player prices from various manufacturers while performance has increased.

Is it the loss leader pricing that Toshiba presented with HD DVD? Nope! Absolutely not! But, it is 95% of major CEs working together towards a solidly founded product which is on track to coexist with DVD for many years and potentially replace DVD as a standard should we see player prices hit $100 before HD DD becomes nationally feasible.

I'm waiting on that Pansonic DMP-BD50K review along with the BD30K review, since that player runs about as much as the five star Oppo.

What I expect though is "Still another ten more reasons why we really, really, really think BD has failed". :D

Keep a smile on your face Clint - these are only forums. ;)
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Yet, here is a $400 DVD player (in a world of sub $100 DVD players) which you consider a 5 star value product and 4.5 star performance product, yet it will never be able to deliver the quality of a single BD disc from a $229 Insignia player at 1080p/24.
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/dvd-players/oppo-dv-983h

If I am to believe that people at AH love BD, then why not go ahead and give a review of some of the current players on the market and hold their audio and video quality levels up against DVDs? Why not give some people a seroius look at the new players from Panasonic, Denon, Pioneer, Sony, Insignia (funai), and others?
This portion of your rant really strikes a chord with me. I think the source material is everything. I really wouldn't be surprised if a Vizio plasma looked better than a Pioneer Kuro, if the first was hooked up with a $230 BDP, and the latter hooked up with any DVD player of choice, whether an Oppo or not.

Haven't done the comparison myself, but it wouldn't surprise me. The best part? Money in the pocket, and a whole lot of it to boot.

To get a high-end display, yet stick with DVD or often over compressed TV broadcasts . . . I don't know man, I just don't know . . . Heck, it doesn't even have to be high-end, but any HDTV, whether DLP, LCD, etc, and not go with high quality video? What's the darned point??

Well, I suppose HDTVs are the only thing around, and you can't find a new 480i CRT anymore. But then why not take advantage? One can rent! Sheesh! Its like buying a nice set of speakers for $2,000 but sticking with the lowest resolution of video and audio you can find to feed them with.
 
W

westcott

Audioholic General
I bought both an HD DVD player and a BR player last year. I was not that impressed. But, I look back and think that it is not the enthusiast with the best equipment who stands to gain the most but the average Joe who has mediocre equipment and upgrades to a BD. Most BD players are head and shoulders above the average DVD player in performance and the average user should see the greatest gains in video quality. Audio is a different story because it really takes a stellar system to really appreciate the changes on this side of the technology.

Quality is a hard mistress. One man's beauty is another mans left overs. And putting a price on it becomes even more difficult.

I do not own a single BD disc. I rent them, when available. Why? Because on my system, the video quality is not that much of a step up compared to the higher end DVD players I have been using. BD has made many misteps and when your technology edge is more reliant on the transfer quality of the disc then the resolution added by the technology, then you really need to watch the former. I still see no real need to invest at this time in BD until prices drop to DVD prices. The ROI just is not there IMO. For the average Joe with average equipment, BD may be a good choice but it will still take competitive pricing to convince him that the oveall investment (disc prices from here on out) justify the expenditure.

Face it, we audioholics are in the minority. The average Joe is neither critical enough or appreciative enough to invest in an upgrade that nets negligable audio and video quality improvements to him or her.

Make the prices the same as the old technology and it is a no brainer.
 
dobyblue

dobyblue

Senior Audioholic
This site rarely presents any evidence whatsoever that it 'loves BD', in fact, the articles written typically indicate, at best, a pessimistic view of Blu-ray, and that stance was taken early on with the '10 Reasons Why HD Formats Have Already Failed' http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/10-reasons-why-high-definition-dvd-formats-have-already-failed/
and the follow up, along with about half a dozen more editorials, none of which actually seem to sing the praises of HD optical disc as a format.

<snip>
Well said, to try and debate against this is a job Clint seems to have lent himself to with very little factual evidence on the site to support that position.

IAs for these News & Editorial articles - it's always the same thing. Any time we report and comment on the news it's construed by the BD crowd (who flock here from various BD forums, check some of the posts counts) that we hate BD simply by the fact that we even discuss a topic/article critical of the format.
That's pretty tacky.


We love BD - period. We just have some observations and like to report on news that surrounds the format when it comes up - good or bad. The BDA has enough sycophants, it doesn't need one more.
Can you point out the editorials that show the "good" side of Blu-ray? I can't seem to spot any.

Then again, the site's called Audioholics, not Videoholics, so why should we expect reasonable opinions on matters of video anyway?
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I do not own a single BD disc. I rent them, when available. Why? Because on my system, the video quality is not that much of a step up compared to the higher end DVD players I have been using.
Wow. That's pretty different from my experiences. DVD's have been unwatchable for me. I have not put one on since last year.

BD has made many misteps and when your technology edge is more reliant on the transfer quality of the disc then the resolution added by the technology, then you really need to watch the former.
Transfer quality is always the most important factor, ok alongside the master, regardless of resolution. Why does King Kong look so much better than House of Flying Daggers on DVD? The same thing applies to DVDs, CDs, etc.
 
D

dem beats

Senior Audioholic
This is my opinion and it's not popular, but here goes.... I'm on sinus medsa so bear with me.

I think most of us are not looking at the forest, we look are critical of each tree. BD was introduced poorly, and the format as a whole has been pushed incorrectly. Another HUGE problem is other than the fact it's blue, John Q Pub, doesn't know why or how it's different from a DVD. Most enthusiasts don't either. It looks the same, so many are skeptical. If you walk into a big box store, they can't even set up their BD displays to proper 1080p.... That happens far less now, but I remember durring the "format wars" sales people selling BD with HDDVD players, or HDDVDs with *regular* upscale players. It's not like going from cassette to CD at all. I think the market was pushed into a really defensive position with BD. Even us huge AV enthusiasts are skeptical. DVD gave us huge interface advantages. HUGE. BD doesn't it's just the ability to put more data on a disk.

It's not cut and dry for anyone that this is a step forward. If it was everyone on this forum who cares about sound quality and better picture would have one. ROI was mentioned, and I think that is what the problem is.... BD could reach so much more potential, but the way it was sent out the the public really influenced allot to think of it as Snake oil. Magic pebbles if you will. I know people now, big geeky nerds, they know the tech and potential of BD but they are still skeptical. These are guys who had minidisk writers connected to their PC's. Media format and storage is speeding up so fast and people are more concerned with access to the media rather than how lossy it is.

The theme from many is "why bother? Quality will catch up with online/downloadable media when we all agree on a format."

Me I will have a BD player... I really want the experience. But it will probably be in the form of a PS3. At least if BD dies, then I can still play COD in high def :D:D:D
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
If you want to understand Clint's seeming contradiction of loving BD, but being pessimistic and thinking it will fail - it's simple really.

Blu-ray is that really gorgeous girl who you totally worship. And for what ever reason, one day, she actually pays some attention to you and seems to enjoy your company! But instead of being happy about it, we are filled with a sense of dread, cynicism and we tell anyone who asks, "it won't last".

Why? Because we've been burned before and rather than open ourselves up and get hurt again, we just say, "you should dump me now and spare me the pain of later".

So we say to Blu-ray, "hurry up and die". Not because we hate it, but because we actually love it! Love it so much that it would crush us to lose it. And since we've lost loves before, that is exactly what we are expecting will happen.

So make it quick...just make it quick, baby...


:p
 
That's pretty tacky.
It's merely an observable trend following our articles. I actually welcome it.

I think the thing that is being misconstrued is the business side of BD vs. the format itself.

BD, as a format, kicks butt. It's HD, it has lossless audio. It's great. BD as a business model stinks (so far). Our editorials and analysis are largely focused on the marketing and business side of Blu-ray.

I'm not sure how many articles you want on how great the physical media and format is - that's not really something we need to address over and over.

Reviews of current players are coming. Apparently Marantz can't get us one because they are selling faster than they anticipated. Pioneer is due the end of October and Yamaha is due any week now. Denon will show up when they get us a sample...

Now, to throw some fuel on the fire.... Question of the day:

What would happen if the BD industry followed the pattern of the gaming industry (or Toshiba for that matter) and sold players cheaply so that they could make money later on software and licensing? Do you think BD would have higher adoption rates?
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
Right now it seems to be the sell 'em the razor sell 'em the blades business model. Game consoles are more towards giving 'em a razor.

I'd rather pay more up front for a really good razor and have a great selection of cheaper blades. Er, I mean I don't mind paying for a good quality player so long as I can afford lots of media.

I suspect I'm in the minority, however. I think selling a lot of cheap crappy players at Wally World will do more for the adoption rate.

Jim
 

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