Power Line Noise Questions

[Exterous]

I recently saw a Monster Demo about 'noise' from a power outlet. They came to our store and hooked up a power sniffer to one of our outlets and showed us the 'noise' ( a reading of ~103 on the power sniffer) on the line. Then they plugged in on of their surge protectors/line conditioners and showed the noice went down to around .8.

Then they plugged in a samsung 67" dlp tv, and onkyo reciever running a 1200 watt BA speaker system, and a blu-ray player. The nosie went to about 45 then settled on around 32~ once everything was finished turning on. The noise would vary based on the presummed pwoer draw (ie when we turned the volume up, the 'noise' went up too) That when they told us about the benifits to a two circuit surge protector/line conditioner

Now I have always been skeptical of Monster Demos and am not a fan of their cab le prices, but this was a compelling demo.

How concering is it to have 'noise' on your power line? Is it related to power dips on the line?

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[Haoleb]

The real question you have to ask is, Does said noise cause any noticable performance losses?

The noise on the line can be attributed to a variety of sources, Your appliances, Your neighbors appliances, all the signals in space that can be picked up by the miles and miles of cable and so on. There are many different types of power conditioning equipment, Some will just filter out noise, Some use isolation transformers, and the best ones will actually regenerate a perfect sine wave at 120v. As you could see by their demonstration electronic devices create noise on the line, Especially those using switch mode power supplies which is one reason the monster units also have so called "isolated" banks to prevent noise from one component transferring into another.

I have a Monster HTS3600mk2 and I dont notice a difference in sound or video. I have not done any tests to see if there are small differences as the real reason I have it is for the extra outlets and surge protection. I also use an isolation transformer in front of the Monster unit and a home made device that blocks any DC voltage on the AC line in front of my preamp.

But I keep my amplifiers plugged directly into the wall.

 

[mtrycrafts]

....Now I have always been skeptical of Monster Demos and am not a fan of their cab le prices, but this was a compelling demo.
Thanks for the help guys!

Yes, be very skeptical of any Monster demo.
Audio components have filter in them to take care of line noise.
Try that TV, or actually two identical TVs calibrated identically and plug them in, one through that Monster trick box and the other just plain jane and see if there are visible differences. Let us know what happened.

Don't view it one after the other instead of side by side as your memory is rather short for small differences.

 

[Exterous]

Thats good to know about the audio equipment. Do all recievers have the filters?

We did hook up two tvs, one to the monster surge protector and one into our outlet. It was the general consensus that there may have been ever so slight of a better picture on the monster tv. Once we added a regular surge protector in no one could consitantly point out which one had which attached (both were calibrated)

 

[Rickster71]

Hi Exterous, I too have doubts about Monster's marketing claims.
It doesn't mean power problems don't exist. Just take Monster's claims with a grain of salt.

Here is a little info on transient voltage, from an old post of mine.

Most surges occur when devices with motors - hair dryers, refrigerators, water pumps - shut off. Suddenly the energy these devices were consuming is diverted elsewhere, in the form of excess voltage. Surges also happen when the electric company switches power from one geographic area of the grid to another, as supply and demand in the region changes. Thunderstorms and lightening are the most dramatic and destructive causes of power line problems.
Only 40% of surge problems are generated outside the home or office by events such as lightening, utility grid switching, line slapping, etc. 60% of all electrical surges or transient voltage is generated within the home or office. Surges are caused by elevators, air conditioners, vending machines, copiers, large computers, even lights turning on and off will cause rushes of power and transient voltages back up the line.

Computerized appliances and electronics can be damaged or destroyed by over-voltage surges, or spikes.
This includes computer equipment and peripherals; electronic equipment such as stereos, TVs and VCRs; household appliances including washers, dryers, refrigerators, dishwashers, microwave ovens, food processors, blenders;(you get the idea) and other electronic devices such as fax machines, telephones, and answering machines. Any electronic device that contains a microprocessor is susceptible to damage from transient voltages.

 

[ivseenbetter]

Hi Exterous, I too have doubts about Monster's marketing claims.
It doesn't mean power problems don't exist. Just take Monster's claims with a grain of salt.

Here is a little info on transient voltage, from an old post of mine.

Most surges occur when devices with motors - hair dryers, refrigerators, water pumps - shut off. Suddenly the energy these devices were consuming is diverted elsewhere, in the form of excess voltage. Surges also happen when the electric company switches power from one geographic area of the grid to another, as supply and demand in the region changes. Thunderstorms and lightening are the most dramatic and destructive causes of power line problems.
Only 40% of surge problems are generated outside the home or office by events such as lightening, utility grid switching, line slapping, etc. 60% of all electrical surges or transient voltage is generated within the home or office. Surges are caused by elevators, air conditioners, vending machines, copiers, large computers, even lights turning on and off will cause rushes of power and transient voltages back up the line.

Computerized appliances and electronics can be damaged or destroyed by over-voltage surges, or spikes.
This includes computer equipment and peripherals; electronic equipment such as stereos, TVs and VCRs; household appliances including washers, dryers, refrigerators, dishwashers, microwave ovens, food processors, blenders;(you get the idea) and other electronic devices such as fax machines, telephones, and answering machines. Any electronic device that contains a microprocessor is susceptible to damage from transient voltages.

So, is there a need for a line conditioner or can a simple surge protector work? Is "noise" in the powerline a problem or are we more concerned about surges?

 

[mtrycrafts]

So, is there a need for a line conditioner or can a simple surge protector work? Is "noise" in the powerline a problem or are we more concerned about surges?

More concerned about surges, big ones

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... Do all recievers have the filters?

...)

Yes, they all have them.

One other comment about that TV comparison. The comparison wasn't totally blind as people had an idea or knew which TV was plugged into what Human bias has an impact.

 

[fmw]

So, is there a need for a line conditioner or can a simple surge protector work? Is "noise" in the powerline a problem or are we more concerned about surges?

I don't think there is need for either one. I would bet that you have never heard line noise and that you have never heard of a piece of equipment being destroyed for lack of a surge protector. In 40 some odd years of audio, I never have.

 

[ivseenbetter]

I don't think there is need for either one. I would bet that you have never heard line noise and that you have never heard of a piece of equipment being destroyed for lack of a surge protector. In 40 some odd years of audio, I never have.

Now that you mention it...no, I haven't ever heard of it. Makes me wonder what the point is of any of these types of equipment.

 

[Panjsheri]

I wouldn't say that the demo does not work but I would not get Monster, better spending your money elsewhere like Panamax I got one and absolutely love it and yes I can hear the difference with my receiver and speakers. If you ask anyone on this forum I am pretty confident they will take Panamax over Monster any day of the week!!!

 

[Exterous]

I don't think there is need for either one. I would bet that you have never heard line noise and that you have never heard of a piece of equipment being destroyed for lack of a surge protector. In 40 some odd years of audio, I never have.

Having done computer repair at an HP authorized repair center we would see them occasionally - not significant source of volume for us though. We would usually see a small spike in work after large thunderstorms

Yes, they all have them.

One other comment about that TV comparison. The comparison wasn't totally blind as people had an idea or knew which TV was plugged into what Human bias has an impact.

To be fair in our test, we asked employees who did not know what was plugged into what

 

[mtrycrafts]

Having done computer repair at an HP authorized repair center we would see them occasionally - not significant source of volume for us though. We would usually see a small spike in work after large thunderstorms

Audio components have filters, not surge suppression, so that can be a concern that a good surge suppressor will take care of. I guess computers don't have them either.

 

[fmw]

Having done computer repair at an HP authorized repair center we would see them occasionally - not significant source of volume for us though. We would usually see a small spike in work after large thunderstorms

Like almost everyone else, you are confusing surges with lightning. Nothing on the planet will protect anything from a direct lightning strike and certainly not a surge protector. Surges have nothing to do with lightning. They are changes in voltage from the electrical grid. The chances that a line surge could hurt audio equipment are so unlikely that I've never heard of it happening in 40 years of audio. I've asked question all over the internet and nobody else has ever heard of it happening either. Yet people keep buying the things. It is truly amazing.

 

[Exterous]

Like almost everyone else, you are confusing surges with lightning. Nothing on the planet will protect anything from a direct lightning strike and certainly not a surge protector. Surges have nothing to do with lightning. They are changes in voltage from the electrical grid.

Doesn't a lightning strike create an enormous voltage surge? Would that not qualify as a power surge?

Edit: I guess it depends on whose definition you go by. I looked up several definitions. Some say along the lines of "An oversupply of voltage from the power company that can last up to 50 microseconds. Although surges are very short in duration, they often reach 6,000 volts and 3,000 amps when they arrive at the equipment. Power surges are a common cause of damage to computers and electronic" while others say "sudden increase in voltage that enters through the power line; potentially damaging to electrical equipment, especially computers."

The second definition lends itself to some ambiguity regarding the source of the surge (ie - lightning strike on the power line)

 

[fmw]

Doesn't a lightning strike create an enormous voltage surge? Would that not qualify as a power surge?

Not one that a surge protector would help.

 

[Rickster71]

One man's direct lighting strike, becomes another man's surge; if the other man is a half mile or so away.

It's like buying insurance. Does everyone have a fire, or flood in there home? No. Though you never know.