The DAC question

[Alliriki]

Hi there, I'm not sure I belong but I'm lost in dac territory. I have $500 max to connect a Mac to a Densen Beat 100 amp and Epos 12.2 speakers via usb. The Cd player is a NAD 525BEE that would also benefit from a better dac but still beats an M-audio transit by a mile. A Benchmark is simply too expensive. What gives?

 

[fmw]

Hi there, I'm not sure I belong but I'm lost in dac territory. I have $500 max to connect a Mac to a Densen Beat 100 amp and Epos 12.2 speakers via usb. The Cd player is a NAD 525BEE that would also benefit from a better dac but still beats an M-audio transit by a mile. A Benchmark is simply too expensive. What gives?

I disagree with you completely. Dacs are dacs. It is a mature technology and one that has been perfected since the early 1990's. I've run over 30 comparative bias controlled listening tests on CD players and DAC's and only once has an audible difference appeared. That was an external DAC. The sonic difference was due to a tube driven analog stage, not due to a DAC. If you want to improve your sound work on the speakers and the room in which they are set up.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, like fmw says, the studies pretty much say that practically all current DACs & CD players sound the same to the human ears. Now we can measure a difference. I get different specs like THD%, frequency response linearity, SNR, crosstalk, etc. And the $20K players will have much better specs than the $100 players. But humans are limited on the audible spectrum. We can't even tell the difference between 0.00000000001% THD vs 1% THD or even 2% THD, especially the lower frequencies in which we can't even tell a 10% THD.

I have the $3,800 Denon 5910CI player. I also have a $150 Sony DVD player. I would like to think there is a difference.

But I will NOT claim that there IS a difference.

 

[davidtwotrees]

I am currently selling a Denon 3910. It is replaced by a Pioneer Elite DV48a for which I just paid $99 delivered. I can not tell a difference on hi rez discs, movies, cds, anything. No, I didn't do any blind testing or scientific things.
I have a 13 year old Lexicon processor, from which I can not tell the difference from my 4 year old Audio Refinement processor. My music server plays mp3 music from it's hard drive at 320 kbps, and I can not tell the difference from that vs it's built in cd player. Going deeper into the rabbit hole, I can not tell the difference when switching from optical to analog hookups on any of these combinations.
When I switched from my $800 per pair Mordaunt Short towers to my much more expensive Canton Karat towers............now there was difference.

 

[Alliriki]

Hearing problem

I think you guys have a hearing problem, maybe from listening to MP3 files. There's absolutely no question that low end digital processing gives muddy output and flat sound. With lossless sources even my pretty humble CD player creams an M-Audio Transit, just as that same CD player will thoroughly fry a Pioneer Elite DV48a. But of course this is audible only with full resolution originals, if the file is junk its rendering will be junk as well. If you can't hear the difference between the Denon and the Pioneer there must be something wrong with your setup.

 

[Adam]

Alliriki, welcome to the forum. Nice to see that you're all about making friends.

Which Mac do you have?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think you guys have a hearing problem, maybe from listening to MP3 files.

Man, I surely hope not!

I try to keep the volume below 90dB at all times.

And I hate MP3 or any compressed audio, so I don't listen to MP3.

There is no way I would sell my Denon 5910CI to buy a cheaper player, and I hope there is an audible difference. I just can't prove it.

 

[fmw]

I think you guys have a hearing problem, maybe from listening to MP3 files. There's absolutely no question that low end digital processing gives muddy output and flat sound. With lossless sources even my pretty humble CD player creams an M-Audio Transit, just as that same CD player will thoroughly fry a Pioneer Elite DV48a. But of course this is audible only with full resolution originals, if the file is junk its rendering will be junk as well. If you can't hear the difference between the Denon and the Pioneer there must be something wrong with your setup.

Nothing wrong with my setup, my hearing or my testing procedures. But if you believe what you believe then follow the dream. Lots of people nurture perceptual hearing so you have plenty of company.

 

[davidtwotrees]

I think you guys have a hearing problem, maybe from listening to MP3 files. ...... If you can't hear the difference between the Denon and the Pioneer there must be something wrong with your setup.

Pretty cheeky post considering you're listening to a computer......read my signature and look at the rig. Here is a link to some youtube footage of my set up. Believe me, this set up is just fine........twotreesrig
since that video I have added a different sub, as well as a Parasound 3 channel amp. My rig produces jaw dropping sound..........

The point of my post was to illustrate that your source has very little to do with your sound quality and your speakers have ALOT to do with it.
Your post illustrates how challenging people's belief systems makes them defensive and uncomfortable. Good luck with your computer.

 

[bandphan]

I think you guys have a hearing problem, maybe from listening to MP3 files. There's absolutely no question that low end digital processing gives muddy output and flat sound. With lossless sources even my pretty humble CD player creams an M-Audio Transit, just as that same CD player will thoroughly fry a Pioneer Elite DV48a. But of course this is audible only with full resolution originals, if the file is junk its rendering will be junk as well. If you can't hear the difference between the Denon and the Pioneer there must be something wrong with your setup.

 

[OttoMatic]

Hi Alliriki,

As you've surely figured out by now, this isn't the forum to get advice about the particulars of things that won't cause blatant changes in sound. This is the "everything sounds the same forum" and the "have you done any double blind tests of that?" forum. Many of us could have predicted the outcome of this thread just by reading the title.

Now, I'm not here to get dragged into the debate. I don't care if this guy, that guy or the next can or cannot hear those differences. I just wanted to let you know that there are better forums that this if you want to talk about the subtleties of DACs and such.

Good luck!

 

[bandphan]

The point of my post was to illustrate that your source has very little to do with your sound quality and your speakers have ALOT to do with it.
Your post illustrates how challenging people's belief systems makes them defensive and uncomfortable. Good luck with your computer.

I agree, and while i consider the recording a "source", i cant distinguish "sound" from one transport or player to another. I have heard at high spls, player noise introduced and amplified, once.(not my rig and during dbt listening tests on speakers)

 

[fmw]

Hi Alliriki,

As you've surely figured out by now, this isn't the forum to get advice about the particulars of things that won't cause blatant changes in sound. This is the "everything sounds the same forum" and the "have you done any double blind tests of that?" forum. Many of us could have predicted the outcome of this thread just by reading the title.

Now, I'm not here to get dragged into the debate. I don't care if this guy, that guy or the next can or cannot hear those differences. I just wanted to let you know that there are better forums that this if you want to talk about the subtleties of DACs and such.

Good luck!

Absolutely. Go to audioasylum.com. They nurture perceptual hearing there instead of explaining it to people. You will be far happier there.

 

[mtrycrafts]

......read my signature and look at the rig. .

Yes, only if it wasn't in a micro dot

 

[mtrycrafts]

... This is the "everything sounds the same forum" and the "have you done any double blind tests of that?" forum. Good luck!

Not sure where those posts are that has 'everything sounds the same' posted. Surely, they must be easy to find.

And, what is wrong with DBT to make sure one is not imagining things?

 

[mtrycrafts]

...If you can't hear the difference between the Denon and the Pioneer there must be something wrong with your setup.

Or, perhaps, one has an over active imagination if they do think they hear a difference?

 

[wire]

Hi Alliriki,

As you've surely figured out by now, this isn't the forum to get advice about the particulars of things that won't cause blatant changes in sound. This is the "everything sounds the same forum" and the "have you done any double blind tests of that?" forum. Many of us could have predicted the outcome of this thread just by reading the title.

Now, I'm not here to get dragged into the debate. I don't care if this guy, that guy or the next can or cannot hear those differences. I just wanted to let you know that there are better forums that this if you want to talk about the subtleties of DACs and such.

Good luck!

Hehe
Yep hit the nail on the head .

 

[wire]

Or, perhaps, one has an over active imagination if they do think they hear a difference?

But I am looking 4 a external DAC for my Puter system . And Yes i listin to MP3 on my Puter system @ 320 Kpbs .

 

[mtrycrafts]

But I am looking 4 a external DAC for my Puter system . And Yes i listin to MP3 on my Puter system @ 320 Kpbs .

How about a receiver?

 

[wire]

How about a receiver?

Nope got a Pre / Amp , need a dac for the puter going to the Pre .