Onkyo TX-NR905 vs Denon 4308ci

[wire]

I am not sure if you ran your 4B as hot as others do with their 805 or 905's but keep in mind that the 4B is a power amp so it has less minute electronic devices in it.

True
Its a power amp , but the 4b can damn hot and no damage .

 

[Panjsheri]

So please elaborate for us on this HEAT issue.

When you say "HOT", do you mean "100 F degrees" HOT?

Or is like "70 F degrees" WARM?

Well I wouldn't be able to tell you the exact temperature but its not like you touch it and will get 3rd degree burns but if you leave your hand there then I cant promise that wont happen.

BTW: Since getting the 905 I did notice that it is still hot but warm compared to the 875 probably because of the transformers.

 

[dobyblue]

I'm sure if it's well ventilated there won't be much issues, but for people with a dedicated room it's hard to have your AV equipment "well ventilated" without fans, particularly in basement areas.

I don't see the Onkyo causing much of an issue if it's sitting on top of an AV Rack that's not in a closet/small area.

The Onkyo and Denon both do DSD>Analog conversion, both network from PC. The Onkyo has better DAC's but if there's more ambient noise then that's irrelevant. The Sound and Vision review of the 4308CI from Feb 2008 says the "excess noise" results are the best they've ever tested, which is surely something of note, and that the multi-channel inputs also tested exceptionally well for noise.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2676/test-bench-denon-avr-4308ci-av-receiver.html

5 channel response drives 126w/ch, they don't list the 7 channel response.
I know the Pioneer 94TX is Select2 THX certification and the 7 channel response is 100w/ch instead of the posted 140w. Most likely that's where the Onkyo really kicks in, although how often are you going to be looking for 7 channels all driven?

The Denon has WiFi, the Onkyo lets you bridge the front channels for 220w/ch power.

I really can't see anyone being disappointed with either choice.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

http://www.onkyousa.com/download/brochure.cfm

It is confirmed that the Onkyo 805, 875, & 905 ALL have the Burr-Brown PCM-1796 DACs (http://63.148.251.135/redirect.cfm?file=2007-2008_USA.pdf).

The Denon 4308 has the PCM-1791 DACs.

Flagship DACs: PCM-1792.
2nd-in-line: PCM-1796.
3rd-in-line: PCM-1791.

http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3494.asp

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pcm1792a.html

 

[Seth=L]

http://www.onkyousa.com/download/brochure.cfm

It is confirmed that the Onkyo 805, 875, & 905 ALL have the Burr-Brown PCM-1796 DACs (http://63.148.251.135/redirect.cfm?file=2007-2008_USA.pdf).

The Denon 4308 has the PCM-1791 DACs.

Flagship DACs: PCM-1792.
2nd-in-line: PCM-1796.
3rd-in-line: PCM-1791.

http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3494.asp

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/pcm1792a.html

So Denon is pinching pennies? They must be prepping for that Kenwood take over.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So Denon is pinching pennies? They must be prepping for that Kenwood take over.

Yeah, really.

Actually I was think why the flagship models from Denon (AVP, 5308), Onkyo (905), Yamaha (Z11), etc., don't just use the flagship PCM-1792 DACs?

Sure, they may all sound the same. But then again, a $5K receiver may also sound the same as a $800 receiver. I think buyers of these flagship models would want some kind of "distinction" that separates them from everyone else?

Besides the "heat" and possible "reliability" issues, which may not be true, the Onkyo 805-905 look great.

It makes some people wonder why an $800 Onkyo 805 has the PCM-1796 and the $5K Yamaha Z11, $5K Denon 5308, and $7K Denon AVP-A1 also have the same PCM-1796 DACs?

I guess that's one reason I could not bring myself to buying the AVP-A1 or 5308; my DVD-5910CI has the flagship PCM-1792 & Realta chip, so why bother getting something LESS (PCM-1792) that costs MORE?

 

[PENG]

Yeah, really.

Actually I was think why the flagship models from Denon (AVP, 5308), Onkyo (905), Yamaha (Z11), etc., don't just use the flagship PCM-1792 DACs?

Sure, they may all sound the same. But then again, a $5K receiver may also sound the same as a $800 receiver. I think buyers of these flagship models would want some kind of "distinction" that separates them from everyone else?

Besides the "heat" and possible "reliability" issues, which may not be true, the Onkyo 805-905 look great.

It makes some people wonder why an $800 Onkyo 805 has the PCM-1796 and the $5K Yamaha Z11, $5K Denon 5308, and $7K Denon AVP-A1 also have the same PCM-1796 DACs?

I guess that's one reason I could not bring myself to buying the AVP-A1 or 5308; my DVD-5910CI has the flagship PCM-1792 & Realta chip, so why bother getting something LESS (PCM-1792) that costs MORE?

I follow your logic but from what I gather few people could hear the difference between the bottom 1791 and the top 1792. Also, the overall sound quality does not depend only on the DACs. If Denon saved on DACs perhaps they spent more on other things.

 

[dobyblue]

According to Jeff from Denon who posts on AVS, the PCM1796 chips used on the 5308, because there are two used per channel, will give the same performance as the PCM1792.

Although that doesn't explain the usage of the PCM1791A chips on the 4308.

It has been confirmed that the 805, 875 and 905 are using the PCM1796 chips for several months now, so that shouldn't come as news.

However I do note that looking through reviews the 4308CI is noted for how quiet it is and that even in analog multi-channel mode there is barely a peep to be heard. For most, this is probably more important than the DAC's.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2685/denon-avr-4308ci-av-receiver.html

Denon's AVR-4308CI impressed, with very good power results, and virtually perfect noise and linearity performance. Power with stereo channels driven handily bettered Denon's 140 watts spec, and performance with 5 channels driven was only a scant half-dB shy of that mark, at 126 watts. S/N on PCM signal was spot on the theoretically "perfect" mark on our dithered-silence test, and a couple tenths "better than perfect" with Dolby Digital signals. This is probably a lab-only vestige of a meaninglessly tiny least-significant bit error; nevertheless, linearity at -90 dBFS was effectively perfect, and our "excess noise" results were the best I've measured. (Analog-domain noise at the multichannel input was outstanding as well.)

Although it should be said that the dynamic range of Blu-ray and Super Audio CD exceeds that of the PCM1791A DAC, but is met by both the PCM1796 and PCM/DSD1792 chips.

The SC-09TX from Pioneer is using Wolfson WM 8741 DACs (http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/WM8741/) which will sit very well with music lovers, but as far as I can tell they're not adding direct DSD>Analog conversion which the Denon 3808, 4308, 4308, Yamaha RX-1800, RX-3800, RX-Z11 and Onkyo 805, 875 and 905 all have.

The entire Elite line currently will only do DSD>PCM and, whether or not I will be able to hear a difference, I still want the opportunity to do direct DSD>Analog. Full specs aren't out on the SC-09TX yet, but at $7,000 it's not one I'm considering.

The Denon 3808CI is very similar to the 4308CI and can be had through an authorized refurbished Denon dealer for $999 right now with free shipping through Amazon. I'm so close to pulling the plug, but am also considering getting a pre/pro and amp from Emotiva.

Decisions, decisions, decisions, they're so hard to make when you don't have a $20,000 budget!

 

[PENG]

However I do note that looking through reviews the 4308CI is noted for how quiet it is and that even in analog multi-channel mode there is barely a peep to be heard. For most, this is probably more important than the DAC's.

That is a very good point and it is one of few reasons why I choose the 4308 to replace my 3805. The 3805 is silent compared to other receivers I have checked out before I bought it a few years ago.

 

[dobyblue]

I'd like to make a correction to a previous post - I had mentioned that the Onkyo receivers only do PCM 24/192 in 2-channel, but this is incorrect, they do PCM 24/192 through all channels.

They are limited to 24/96 for dts-ma in all channels and can only do 2 channel 24/192 TrueHD sources.

For PS3 owners, this is irrelevant.

Upon checking with Denon, their 3808 and 4308 both do 24/192 PCM, TrueHD and dts-ma multi-channel. Again, this is irrelevant for PS3 owners and people with the Denon DVD-3800BD Blu-ray player, but for those with bitstreaming it's something to keep in mind if you're thinking that there may be some mainstream music releases in dts-ma 24/192 on the horizon.

Incredibly small percentage of people no doubt, if sources like this ever come out, but in a place like Audioholics I'm sure it's pertinent information.

 

[PENG]

Upon checking with Denon, their 3808 and 4308 both do 24/192 PCM, TrueHD and dts-ma multi-channel. Again, this is irrelevant for PS3 owners and people with the Denon DVD-3800BD Blu-ray player, but for those with bitstreaming it's something to keep in mind if you're thinking that there may be some mainstream music releases in dts-ma 24/192 on the horizon.

My understanding is that the 3808 and 4308 can decode dts ma bit stream.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My understanding is that the 3808 and 4308 can decode dts ma bit stream.

I think Dolby is saying that some of these receivers do decode the bitstream for 24/96 TrueHD/DTS-MA, but NOT the bitstream for 24/192 TrueHD/DTS-MA, which may only be relevant for 5.1/7.1 TrueHD/DTS-MA MUSIC. The movies are probably only in 24/96.

 

[dobyblue]

All the major movies are in 24/48, so I was looking strictly at music.

The Neil Young Archives are going to be all in 24/192, but again with a PS3 it's irrelevant.

I am having a hard time right now. I can get an Onkyo TX-NR905 for around $1,400 new or a Denon 4308CI refurbished with a 2-year warranty for $1,400 from an authorized refurbished Denon dealer.

I have no idea what to do. The only area the Denon concerns me on is power with all channels driven. Now I know this won't be a concern with movies, but what about music?

If I've got my speakers crossed at around 60Hz and let my Servo 15v2 take care of duties below that, will I ever really push the Denon?

I mean look at the difference on the test bench between the TX-SR875 and the 4308CI done by the same person, showing where the Ultra2 certification comes into play.

Onkyo TX-SR875
1 channel driven: (8 ohms): 201 watts (23 dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 141 watts (21.5 dBW)
7 channels driven (8 ohms): 128 watts (21.1 dBW)

Denon 4308CI
1 channel driven: (8 ohms): 171 W (22.3 dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 126 W (21 dBW)
7 channels driven (8 ohms): 111 W (20.5 dBW)

Is this really a concern? Is the Denon's strong point that it sounds more natural? Is the difference in DAC's important when considering high resolution audio like 24/96 - 24/192 and Super Audio CD's where both receivers support DSD>Analog but the Onkyo has the PCM1796?

My head is hurting. I wish I could just afford the Denon 5308CI and be done with it.

Ha, ha.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

All the major movies are in 24/48, so I was looking strictly at music.

The Neil Young Archives are going to be all in 24/192, but again with a PS3 it's irrelevant.

I am having a hard time right now. I can get an Onkyo TX-NR905 for around $1,400 new or a Denon 4308CI refurbished with a 2-year warranty for $1,400 from an authorized refurbished Denon dealer.

I have no idea what to do. The only area the Denon concerns me on is power with all channels driven. Now I know this won't be a concern with movies, but what about music?

If I've got my speakers crossed at around 60Hz and let my Servo 15v2 take care of duties below that, will I ever really push the Denon?

I mean look at the difference on the test bench between the TX-SR875 and the 4308CI done by the same person, showing where the Ultra2 certification comes into play.

Onkyo TX-SR875
1 channel driven: (8 ohms): 201 watts (23 dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 141 watts (21.5 dBW)
7 channels driven (8 ohms): 128 watts (21.1 dBW)

Denon 4308CI
1 channel driven: (8 ohms): 171 W (22.3 dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 126 W (21 dBW)
7 channels driven (8 ohms): 111 W (20.5 dBW)

Is this really a concern? Is the Denon's strong point that it sounds more natural? Is the difference in DAC's important when considering high resolution audio like 24/96 - 24/192 and Super Audio CD's where both receivers support DSD>Analog but the Onkyo has the PCM1796?

My head is hurting. I wish I could just afford the Denon 5308CI and be done with it.

Ha, ha.

I would wait for a reburbished 5308CI for $2,500 on eCost:
http://www.ecost.com/Detail/Receivers/Denon/AVR5308CI/41312588.aspx

It might take a long time, and you would have to watch it everyday and call every week to beat the next guy to the punch, but it would be a great buy.

 

[PENG]

As I mentioned before, one good thing about Denon is quietness. Its P/S transformer hum is almost inaudible. The amps are also quiet with almost inaudible hiss even if you crank the volume right up when selecting an analog input that has nothing connected to it.

Regarding the ACD numbers, the Onkyo wins but not by much not to the point that it will impact on sound quality. Even with multichannel music, the surround channels do not need the same power that the front channels need.

 

[dobyblue]

I would wait for a reburbished 5308CI for $2,500 on eCost:
http://www.ecost.com/Detail/Receivers/Denon/AVR5308CI/41312588.aspx

It might take a long time, and you would have to watch it everyday and call every week to beat the next guy to the punch, but it would be a great buy.

Funny thing is, I already have on in my cart even though it's out of stock.

=D

My budget is $1,500 for this round, but I would seriously considering squeezing it up to $2,500 to get the 5308CI.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Funny thing is, I already have on in my cart even though it's out of stock.

=D

My budget is $1,500 for this round, but I would seriously considering squeezing it up to $2,500 to get the 5308CI.

You have to get the 5308CI. No question about it.

Knowing that the Onkyo 805 has the PCM1796 and the Denon 4308 has the PCM1791 will just eat you up!

No question about it. Get the 5308CI.

You know they have the 6-month payment plan.

Some credit card (Citicards) will even let you transfer a balance from another card with NO FEES and 0% Finance for 12 months.

 

[dobyblue]

I'm a Canadian though (who ships everything to a friend in Buffalo, NY) so I don't have a SS# - can't get US credit.



Better to pay up front anyway. (Although my friend now gets lots of CC offers for me at his house! I've saved hundreds of dollars on Blu-ray's to date, and SACD's)

I will keep my eye open for a 5308CI, you're right, it will always have me wondering if I pick between the 905 and 4308.

Well, for the moment that's my plan anyway.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm a Canadian though (who ships everything to a friend in Buffalo, NY) so I don't have a SS# - can't get US credit.



Better to pay up front anyway. (Although my friend now gets lots of CC offers for me at his house! I've saved hundreds of dollars on Blu-ray's to date, and SACD's)

I will keep my eye open for a 5308CI, you're right, it will always have me wondering if I pick between the 905 and 4308.

Well, for the moment that's my plan anyway.

It may sound scary to spend $2,500 cash, but imagine how exciting you would feel if you had the 5308CI!

You would feel like king of the hill.

I would call those people frequently! You might get lucky.

I think a lot of people will be eyeing that 5308CI for $2,500 so you will definitely have your work cut out for you.

I was actually eyeing the 5308CI myself!

Really, if I had seen the 5308CI in stock for $2,500, I would have gotten it in a heart beat!

But you don't have to worry about me as a competition anymore.

Good luck!

 

[PENG]

What did I miss? Where can you get the 5308 for $2500? I am ready any minute now to get the 4308 for $2000 but won't have to think if the 5308 can be had for $500 more. You guys are joking right?