N

nosferatu

Audioholic
i have a questoin how far apart schould my speakers be ? i use the for about 75% music and 25%HT my room is 12x18 and the spekers are on the longer wall
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Try getting a perfect triangle from the sweet spot. So place the speakers as far apart as you are from either one.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
i have a questoin how far apart schould my speakers be ? i use the for about 75% music and 25%HT my room is 12x18 and the spekers are on the longer wall
For the best stereo the speakers should be at least 10 ft apart and not more than 14. One of the commonest mistakes is having the speakers too close together. I see that on some member's photographs. If the speakers are too close there is poor depth of field, and speaker to speaker interference.
 
supervij

supervij

Audioholic General
Ten feet, TLS Guy? I've always read that between six and eight feet is about right. I've got mine at about 7.5 feet, and I got a perfect triangle, placing the speakers at 30 degrees for each of them. Sounds darn good to me.

As with everything else, nosferatu, experimentation is key.

cheers,
supervij
 
ThA tRiXtA

ThA tRiXtA

Full Audioholic
10 feet seems a little wide to me as well, but I've never had any inclination nor reason not to take TLSGuy's opinion as valuable... at the very least you would likely want to toe in your speakers, right TLS?

On a side note, looking through the manual that comes with your speakers should yield you at least a starting point on how to properly set up your speakers. Some speaker manufacturers really spell it all out for you. Look there first, if anyone should know, one would think it would be the makers of that particular speaker.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
I think there is no specific distance that is ideal but the recommendations are based on the old equilateral triangle rule for placing your speakers for best imaging. In other words the two front speakers should be placed the same distance apart as you are from them.

Real world constraints complicate matters, as usual. You may say someone has their speakers too close but they may have no other choice given their room arrangement. I think the majority of us use our living room as the HT room and sometimes it is just not possible to set things up to be 'ideal'. You do the best you can and that is that. My front speakers are 66" apart and I sit 12 feet from them but I cannot make them 12 feet apart because my wall is simply not wide enough.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
My speakers were 7' apart with the listening position 10' away. WmAx urged me to get 'em further apart but no closer than 1.5' to the side walls. I was able to get them 7'6" apart at which point I was urged to get the listening position closer. I assured him that I would for the 1 or 2 hours a week that I get to listen to music the way that I like to listen to music. Just as an experiment I sat on the edge of the sofa with my head stuck out to close the gap.

The sound quality was better with my neck stretched out. :D Maybe it justopened up my ear canals. :D

For my listening sessions I plan to move the coffee table and put a rocking chair in it's place. A tad anal perhaps but there is certain change in the sound that I really don't have the vocabulary to describe. Nor do I have the listening experience and developed auditory memory to do a wide range of comparisons, so suggestions like these are invaluable to me. If all else is equal, a really good sounding system produces a higher level of enjoyment which I can appreciate even though I am unable to discuss decay times, reflection points yada, yada, yada ....

So I think TLS is on to something. I just don't know those distances are specific to the OP's room.
 
mouettus

mouettus

Audioholic Chief
Alex2507, is your listening position straight on the back wall? Because I had that same experience. I felt I looked like a moron going back and forth on the edge of the sofa lol. What I think is that when your head is too close of the back wall or sofa, there is too much resonnation/reflections. Then when you take your ears closer, then the sound pass by your ears and the the reflections are not as concentrated when they come back.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Alex2507, is your listening position straight on the back wall? Because I had that same experience. I felt I looked like a moron going back and forth on the edge of the sofa lol. What I think is that when your head is too close of the back wall or sofa, there is too much resonnation/reflections. Then when you take your ears closer, then the sound pass by your ears and the the reflections are not as concentrated when they come back.
Yep, that too.

The phase test on the Avia II calibration disk sounds like there's a tractor comming up from behind on my right. :) The room is what it is. I think 5.1 in movies is cool and like good surround but I can't live with the couch eating up space in an already small room. Music on the other hand has the ability to "move" me so long as the rest of my life is in order. For that I can and will drag a chair into just the right spot for the experience to be as "moving" as possible.

Having said that, I feel gay. I'm gonna go wash now.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
10 feet seems a little wide to me as well, but I've never had any inclination nor reason not to take TLSGuy's opinion as valuable... at the very least you would likely want to toe in your speakers, right TLS?

On a side note, looking through the manual that comes with your speakers should yield you at least a starting point on how to properly set up your speakers. Some speaker manufacturers really spell it all out for you. Look there first, if anyone should know, one would think it would be the makers of that particular speaker.
I have been out of this discussion for a while, as we had a big wedding this weekend. My youngest son and the last of my four children was married. I got back to Benedict yesterday, to find another 18 inches of snow on the ground. The old JD Model A had a two hour work out heaping up snow banks and grading. So far we have had 48 inches of snow in April so far!

If the speakers are close together, there is poor depth of field. You really need at least an 8 ft spacing to get a nice left right spread and good depth. This is very important for classical reproduction. Obviously smaller rooms will not permit that. However I would rather have greater spacing and a speaker nearer the side wall, than the speakers too close together. A spacing greater than 14 ft will give most speakers problems getting a smooth spread between the speakers. I have my speakers 9 ft apart as that is what the room allows. In my last house the speakers were 12 ft apart as the room was bigger.

Siegfried Linkwitz listed speakers too close together as one of the commonest factors limiting good audio reproduction, in a recent AES paper. I could not agree more. I see a lot of speakers in members pictures posted on these forums, that in my opinion show speakers too close together.

As far as toe, this is something that requires experiment. In very small rooms I have often found it beneficial to cross the speaker axes in front of the listening position.

If the speakers have a good off axis response that mirrors the axis response, I usually find I toe that puts the speakers a little off axis works best. That seems to give the best blend of direct speaker radiation and the reverberant field in most rooms.

As another thought, I think having a screen has encouraged closer speaker placement than in the days prior to HT. I wonder if people like there sound stage matching the visual perspective.

I know in my rig, that although I have a 52 inch plasma, that is the optimal size for the viewing distance according to accepted practice, the sound stage is much larger than the visual one. There is to me a disconnect here. However since most of the time the screen is off, I want the huge sound stage.

I have to say that audio realism is of a considerably higher magnitude than visual realism. It seems video technology has a long way to go to catch audio technology for that sense of being there.

I seems to me the thrill of HT is 90% at least audio realism at least, and 10% at best to the video.
 
N

nosferatu

Audioholic
well i masured my speakers and thay are 11" apart from each other and the main sitting position is about 11 away from speakers so than im good there right?

also how much do i need to have the speakers toe in .
my sofa is right up the wall
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
well i masured my speakers and thay are 11" apart from each other and the main sitting position is about 11 away from speakers so than im good there right?

also how much do i need to have the speakers toe in .
my sofa is right up the wall
Try them a little toed out, on axis and toed in, and see which you prefer. See if you can move your sofa a little from the wall.
 
mouettus

mouettus

Audioholic Chief
I measured mine and they are 76" apart. My ears are at 104". That still falls into the 1-1.5 times the distance between the speakers. I just tried this afternoon to space them more and I didn't find the soundstage was right. Imaging was poorer.

Toe in is half-way between pointing forward and directly radiating at my ears. So when I look at the speakers I see a little of the inner sides. That gives me a very good result both with movies/surround processing and 2-ch music listening.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I measured mine and they are 76" apart. My ears are at 104". That still falls into the 1-1.5 times the distance between the speakers. I just tried this afternoon to space them more and I didn't find the soundstage was right. Imaging was poorer.

Toe in is half-way between pointing forward and directly radiating at my ears. So when I look at the speakers I see a little of the inner sides. That gives me a very good result both with movies/surround processing and 2-ch music listening.
I looked at your set up and see you have a door in an unfortunate place, that may account for your findings. However a set of speakers that can not produce a convincing sound stage with the speakers placed in the 8 to 12 ft range have significant problems in my view.

If I was the designer of a set of speakers that could not produce a convincing 3D sound stage with that kind of spacing, they would go back on the drawing board. I know I'm particular about speakers, but I find very few convincing, and able to recreate a pleasant believable performance.

I often refer to good speakers as a magic carpet, able to break out of the physical barriers of the room, and transport the listener to wonderful distant spaces, given the right material.
 
mouettus

mouettus

Audioholic Chief
I looked at your set up and see you have a door in an unfortunate place, that may account for your findings. However a set of speakers that can not produce a convincing sound stage with the speakers placed in the 8 to 12 ft range have significant problems in my view.

If I was the designer of a set of speakers that could not produce a convincing 3D sound stage with that kind of spacing, they would go back on the drawing board. I know I'm particular about speakers, but I find very few convincing, and able to recreate a pleasant believable performance.

I often refer to good speakers as a magic carpet, able to break out of the physical barriers of the room, and transport the listener to wonderful distant spaces, given the right material.
Who says my speakers can't have a decent performance 6.5" apart?

And yes the room layout is definitely killing some options as far as SQ but functionality takes over as this is the family room. The best placement would put the fireplace in our back. Not very practical.... I've tried...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Who says my speakers can't have a decent performance 6.5" apart?
I personally don't like a sound stage 6.5 ft wide. The other problem is that a wavelength of 6.5 ft has a frequency of around 170Hz. This gets speaker to speaker interference and comb filtering issues into the critical lower midrange. That is less than ideal.
 
Midcow2

Midcow2

Banned
and also unfortunately ....

Ten feet, TLS Guy? ....As with everything else, nosferatu, experimentation is key. ...

cheers,
supervij

...physical room limitations .. in my case my wife's various collections from fine ceramic birds and flowers to wall ornaments ...
 
N

nosferatu

Audioholic
i try posting a pic of my room later on and you see i don't have many options there
 
Midcow2

Midcow2

Banned
You can compensate for a lot of physical limitations ..

i try posting a pic of my room later on and you see i don't have many options there
With either manual or automatic microphone speaker level setup and then tweaking to your preference by manually adjusting the sound levels. or by using a SPL meter.

Most people do not have perfect HT rooms !
 
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