Monitors- what to buy

[1marookie1]

I know you guys have probably seen this a million times, but I'm shopping for some monitors > about $1,200/pr. what I've listened to and liked are;

1) NHT Classic 3
2) ERA Design 5
3) B&W CM1
4) Focal 706V
5) Snell LCR7 (used)

I realize all of these have a different sound, but I wasnt able to compare them side by side. I'm not using anything fancy for power, I picked up a Rotel 1085 and will eventually replace my old HK receiver that I'm using as a pre-amp now. My family likes all kinds of music from Sade to David Gray to Gomez to Brad Paisley. The system will be used for HT, but I'm not real concerned with that, more the music. I'm looking for something with detail at a fairly low volume, and my house is very open with some high (25 ft) ceilings and all kinds of angels, the listening area is roughly 900 sq.ft. (kitchen open to the living room). My bride will not have huge speakers, monitors is about as big as she will approve. I will be adding a sub as well (REL?, HSU?) again, mainly to fill the low end gap for music.

Some others that I've read about and would like to listen to are the Acsend Sierra 1's and the EPOS M12.2.

From my listening experience and my ears, I would rate the Snells 1st, B&W's 2nd, and the others very similar. Can anyone give my any idea how the Acsend's or the EPOS would complare? anyone suggest any other monitors I should listen to in the used market, like the Silverline, Splendor, Totem, Usher, Vienna's?

thank you

 

[mike c]

Monitor Audio GS10 - around 1+k

 

[jostenmeat]

Nice list!

Ive only heard great things about the CM1, which now makes me very curious about Snell! One speaker that I'd love to hear, if out of pure curiousity, is the Swan 2.1 SE reference monitor.
http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?products_id=69
Also, perhaps Dynaudio Audience bookshelves at around that msrp. The Contour line, a couple of lines up, I saw sold at about that same price on the gon. I love their towers, haven't heard the bookshelves.

 

[Sheep]

Infinity Primus 150s with the stage 2 WmAx modifications.

SheepStar

 

[WmAx]

Do you REALLY want to get the maximum possible sound quality out of a pair of bookshelf speakers for about $1000 or less?

For an easy and extremely effective solution that will exceed your expectations, purchase an item from both (1) and (2) from the following list:

1) Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 or Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1
2) Behringer DCX2496 Loudspeaker Management DSP or Behringer DEQ2496 DSP

The CBM-170 [1] appears to have a somewhat superior driver set and crossover as compared to the [2] Sierra, despite the substantially higher price of the Sierra, as demonstrated by credible NRC measurements. But the Sierra has a lower resonance of the cabinet system. The lower resonance cabinet can actually result in a better perceived sound quality, despite the slight inferiority of the driver/crossover. But both have very good crossover/driver combination that offers a very good on and off axis response linearity and low harmonic distortion. You need to use a precision DSP EQ between the pre-amp and amplifier, and there by allowing custom modification of the tonal response(which is the main difference among many good quality speaker systems of similar off axis performance characteristics, as well as cabinet resonance, which you can not modify without physical modifications to the speaker system). The E.Q. I am recommending has little similarity of what you may associate as an 'E.Q.'. This device allows for precision, subtle modifications. As well, if you purchase the DCX2496 unit, this device also allows ideal integration of subwoofers(preferably stereo) that you purchase in the future; the DCX device will also make possible custom adjustments to the subwoofer sound 'signature', due to the various precision modification functions possible with this device. An E.Q. is not nearly as effective on common non-flat, non-neutral speaker systems, and can only act as a mask; this is the typical experience people seem to associate with E.Q.. But on a speaker that is somewhat near neutral to begin with, a precision E.Q. system will allow for highly effective modification of the sound signature if used properly. I will assist you in how to use this device if you choose to go this route.

-Chris


Footnotes

[1] Ascend CBM-170 NRC Measurements
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/ascend_cbm170/

[2] Ascend Sierra 1 NRC Measurements
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/ascend_sierra1/

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Are you looking for monitors for listening, or literal monitors (for recording)?
For listening, I strongly recommend that you hear the Cambridge Audio S30s. Don't let the price fool you, they sound like they cost at least $1200. They easily rank among the top 5 or 10 speakers I have heard regardless of size or price.

 

[Davemcc]

1) NHT Classic 3
2) ERA Design 5
3) B&W CM1
4) Focal 706V
5) Snell LCR7 (used)
Acsend Sierra 1's and the EPOS M12.2.
Silverline,
Splendor,
Totem,
Usher,
Vienna's?

Of the above, I've only heard a couple that I can comment on. I'm very fond of the Era D5, myself (solid bass performance, nice tight sound). I've heard the 706V and thought it was a good sounding speaker, equal to others in it's class. I've heard the Epos M5 and liked it a lot, but it was smaller and is in a different class. Auditioning the M12.2 would be a good idea as it could be a contender. I would also second jostenmeat's Dynaudio suggestion, but it might be wise to try and audition them before you buy from Audiogon.

I wouldn't dare to challenge WmAx's suggestion, since he knows more about audio than I will ever know. But if your user name is intended to tell us something about you, you are probably looking for a more plug and play solution for now. If that's the case, audition, audition audition until you find the speakers that blow your mind.

I don't think there are clear winners and losers in this class, just preference. Some of these speakers sound very different than others, so it will be up to your taste to choose. You are going about this the proper way, by trying to listen to each speaker under consideration.

 

[1marookie1]

Wow, thank you everyone who took the time to respond, what you guys do here is a great public service and very much apprecaited.


Mike C- Funny you should mention the Monitor GS10's, I read some good things about them and they were actually the first speakers I auditioned. Maybe it was the equipment driving them or something, but to my non-trained ear, they had no excitement to them, they were dull (to me), with very little detail and left me disapointed and wondering if I was either going deaf or so used to my crappy system that my ears were not used to something less colored (which very well could be true). Then I heard the Snells, and thought, now THAT"S the sound I'm after, but at $2K a pair, that was a bit more than I wanted to spend. That started my search to find something simlar for half the price.

Davemcc - That's great advice, I actually did like the ERA's a lot also, I will continue to audition, audition, audition.

WmAx - I hate to say it, but yes, you are WAY over my head on your suggestions now, but I'm not in a big hurry and I'm very much willing to learn as much as I can before I make a purchase. I take it that I can also audition a "Loudspeaker Management System" and see how much difference one can make? Now to find a place to listen to the Ascend line.

I'm certainly not opposed to spending le$$, where could I listed to the Cambridge Audio S30s I wonder, as well as the Swans and the Dynaudio line?

Thanks again all

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I'm certainly not opposed to spending le$$, where could I listed to the Cambridge Audio S30s I wonder?

I don't know if anyone has them in a showroom. Wild West Audio sells them, and you could return them if not satisfied (I predict you are more likely to keep them, though.)

 

[John Bailey]

If you liked the Focal 706V, you should give a listen to the Focal 807V. They're in your price range and I think they are much better than the 706V. I like the 706V and it would be on my list also, but the 807V, in most cases, will give you much better performance.

John

 

[1marookie1]

Chris, you have peaked my interest with the E.Q. System, is this used in a manor where I will need to constantly tweek it? Like for every song or recording for example? or is it something you fine-tune and that's pretty much it?

Were the "Ascend" models mention only as examples or are they speakers you are recommending?

thank you

kurt

 

[emorphien]

Do you REALLY want to get the maximum possible sound quality out of a pair of bookshelf speakers for about $1000 or less?

For an easy and extremely effective solution that will exceed your expectations, purchase an item from both (1) and (2) from the following list:

1) Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 or Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1
2) Behringer DCX2496 Loudspeaker Management DSP or Behringer DEQ2496 DSP

The CBM-170 [1] appears to have a somewhat superior driver set and crossover as compared to the [2] Sierra, despite the substantially higher price of the Sierra, as demonstrated by credible NRC measurements. But the Sierra has a lower resonance of the cabinet system. The lower resonance cabinet can actually result in a better perceived sound quality, despite the slight inferiority of the driver/crossover. But both have very good crossover/driver combination that offers a very good on and off axis response linearity and low harmonic distortion. You need to use a precision DSP EQ between the pre-amp and amplifier, and there by allowing custom modification of the tonal response(which is the main difference among many good quality speaker systems of similar off axis performance characteristics, as well as cabinet resonance, which you can not modify without physical modifications to the speaker system). The E.Q. I am recommending has little similarity of what you may associate as an 'E.Q.'. This device allows for precision, subtle modifications. As well, if you purchase the DCX2496 unit, this device also allows ideal integration of subwoofers(preferably stereo) that you purchase in the future; the DCX device will also make possible custom adjustments to the subwoofer sound 'signature', due to the various precision modification functions possible with this device. An E.Q. is not nearly as effective on common non-flat, non-neutral speaker systems, and can only act as a mask; this is the typical experience people seem to associate with E.Q.. But on a speaker that is somewhat near neutral to begin with, a precision E.Q. system will allow for highly effective modification of the sound signature if used properly. I will assist you in how to use this device if you choose to go this route.

-Chris


Footnotes

[1] Ascend CBM-170 NRC Measurements
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/ascend_cbm170/

[2] Ascend Sierra 1 NRC Measurements
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/ascend_sierra1/

Good info. IIRC didn't NRC change some of their measurement techniques between when those two speakers were measured?

 

[jaxvon]

Chris, you have peaked my interest with the E.Q. System, is this used in a manor where I will need to constantly tweek it? Like for every song or recording for example? or is it something you fine-tune and that's pretty much it?

Were the "Ascend" models mention only as examples or are they speakers you are recommending?

thank you

kurt

In my experience, this kind of EQ (when used with a high-quality, blank slate type speaker like the Ascends mentioined or, say, the B&W 802D) is used to shape the sound of the speaker to one that is most desirable to you. In his research, Floyd Toole found that what people generally perceive as flat is slightly rolled off treble starting around 10kHz and about 6dB down by 20kHz. With this kind of rolloff (or steeper depending on your personal hearing), the speakers will sound much more natural and less fatiguing, especially with modern pop music. As such, you can also use the same device to change the contour of the frequency response to fit your tastes. Perhaps you like a small bump in the bass or midbass, or maybe a "presence region" boost for a more 'warm' sound. In the end, you will probably fine tweak a setting you like, and spend the rest of your time enjoying your music catalog.

 

[WmAx]

Chris, you have peaked my interest with the E.Q. System, is this used in a manor where I will need to constantly tweek it?

There is no need to constantly tweak the system once you find your preferred setting(s), unless you are simply compelled to do so on a regular basis.

Like for every song or recording for example? or is it something you fine-tune and that's pretty much it?

The real objective is to let you be able to customize the speaker sound - instead of accepting a speaker that has a coloration that you like. The difference is, in my suggestion, you can adjust the 'coloration' to precisely your preference - you are not likely to ever find your 'ideal' preference by accepting any speaker's built-in coloration.

Were the "Ascend" models mention only as examples or are they speakers you are recommending?

The Ascend models I recommended are one example in a reasonable price range that would work - remember - you need a neutral speaker system for my suggested method to work. If you use a speaker that is not neutral(most speakers), you will never be able to adjust it exactly as you prefer, since there is a pre-existing coloration. The Ascends I recommended are by no means perfectly neutral - but they are among the most neutral in the $1000 price range of which I am aware. If you wanted a near-absolute neutral monopole speaker, one with an inaudible cabinet system, you would have to spend considerably more. The B&W 802D is one example of a near-perfect mono-polar speaker in terms of neutrality. It has extremely linear speakers/crossover, low distortion and extremely low resonance to the point of resonance being a non-issue. However, it is considerably above the price range you listed earlier. If you stretched the speaker budget to about $2000-$3000, one could acquire a 2nd hand speaker that is near perfect neutral. If one is handy with woodwork/DIY, one can physically modify a speaker such as the CBM-170 to have cabinets that have very low resonance, thus matching speaker systems that would normally cost much more(primarily because of the cabinet system).

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Good info. IIRC didn't NRC change some of their measurement techniques between when those two speakers were measured?

The measurements of the speakers linked above where performed under identical conditions. The Sierra measurements do, however, have some additional measurements not included in the older CBM-170 measurements.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

WmAx - I hate to say it, but yes, you are WAY over my head on your suggestions now, but I'm not in a big hurry and I'm very much willing to learn as much as I can before I make a purchase. I take it that I can also audition a "Loudspeaker Management System" and see how much difference one can make? Now to find a place to listen to the Ascend line.

In fact, if you were to find some Ascend CBM-170 to listen to, they would sound somewhat 'harsh' in the treble range, when compared to some other speaker systems. They are very linear/neutral - and simply put - most commercial recordings will sound un-natural on a very linear/neutral speaker system as-is. The entire point is - combining the loudspeaker management system with the very neutral speaker makes auditioning other similar monpolar speakers with a similar off axis response a waste of time - because you can adjust the neutral system to what ever signature that you so desire, within the constraints allowed by the off axis response, frequency extension, room acoustics and inherent cabinet resonance, of course.

-Chris

 

[emorphien]

The measurements of the speakers linked above where performed under identical conditions. The Sierra measurements do, however, have some additional measurements not included in the older CBM-170 measurements.

-Chris

Fair enough. I just seemed to remember reading somewhere that they changed their measurement techniques a bit a year ago or so.

 

[1marookie1]

Hello Chris, I'm not sure if I should keep this thread going or just email you directly, but you have me very intrigued with this subject, being an IT Manager, I'm detail oriertented, this stuff seems to be a very slippery slope for me indeed. I've stayed away from video games because I do not want my life to revolve around that. I do not want this to become that, on the other hand, I love to research things, sometimes to a fault...that's just my nature. "Audioholic" appears to be something I would strive to be...but my other half...wife, and 3 year old daughter and my 17 year old daughter have me pulled in a different direction...anyway, they are all in bed now....

The problem with the Ascends is purely aesthetics; my wife would rather see something like the Vienna or the NHT C3, something that is more a piece of furniture I guess, without being too large. I'm not sure that whole thing makes sense to me, but in my 45 years, I've never understood the female brain.


So, what, in your opinion, I should be looking for is a speaker that is a "neutral" as I can? I shouldnt really concern myself with how it sounds in the audition? I spent my lunch hour today listening to the Vienna Haydn Grands...to me, Diana Krall, and John Mayer never sounded so good...well it atleast rivaled the Snell LCR7's...but yes, at $1,200/pr that's not so suprising.

Thanks for your time,
Kurt

 

[emorphien]

Kurt I noticed you were looking for some comparisons against what you've auditioned.

Of those you posted I found the Era 5 and Focals to be better than the B&W CM1 so you probably won't find my taste to match yours. I also preferred the Totem Rainmaker which I had listened to extensively. Recently I've been listening to the Sierra 1s and they are very nice. They don't emphasize anything like the B&W and Totems will, so they're friendly to more records but don't come alive with certain records where the tonal balance of those other speakers might complement the recording in some fashion. That uneven tonal balance can also be a bit hassle with recordings that it doesn't get along with though, emphasizing undesierable things and being fatiguing or overall unpleasant to listen to.

 

[1marookie1]

There is no need to constantly tweak the system once you find your preferred setting(s), unless you are simply compelled to do so on a regular basis.



The real objective is to let you be able to customize the speaker sound - instead of accepting a speaker that has a coloration that you like. The difference is, in my suggestion, you can adjust the 'coloration' to precisely your preference - you are not likely to ever find your 'ideal' preference by accepting any speaker's built-in coloration.



The Ascend models I recommended are one example in a reasonable price range that would work - remember - you need a neutral speaker system for my suggested method to work. If you use a speaker that is not neutral(most speakers), you will never be able to adjust it exactly as you prefer, since there is a pre-existing coloration. The Ascends I recommended are by no means perfectly neutral - but they are among the most neutral in the $1000 price range of which I am aware. If you wanted a near-absolute neutral monopole speaker, one with an inaudible cabinet system, you would have to spend considerably more. The B&W 802D is one example of a near-perfect mono-polar speaker in terms of neutrality. It has extremely linear speakers/crossover, low distortion and extremely low resonance to the point of resonance being a non-issue. However, it is considerably above the price range you listed earlier. If you stretched the speaker budget to about $2000-$3000, one could acquire a 2nd hand speaker that is near perfect neutral. If one is handy with woodwork/DIY, one can physically modify a speaker such as the CBM-170 to have cabinets that have very low resonance, thus matching speaker systems that would normally cost much more(primarily because of the cabinet system).

-Chris

Chris, have you heard the B&W CM-1's? If I was to say anything about these speakers, it would be "neutral"...now, I admit, I really don’t know exactly what "neutral" really means in your terms, but for me, for what I have auditioned, "neutral" would be one word that comes to mind when describing the CM-1's. Can you give me an idea what "neutral' sounds like? Or is it really decided by the meters that measure things I might not even hear?

Spending $300 on the EQ system you mentioned earlier would be something I would really be willing to do if I can get a speaker that will fit the "neutral" need and the "ascetic" needs.