Denon AVR-3808CI or Onkyo TX-SR875 or ?

[cbraver]

My dad wants me to upgrade his receiver, a Denon 3805, to the new 3808CI because he likes the 1080p upscaling (he says Faroudja did the design of that? Is that true? I thought they were a Meridian company...). I'm going to do the work, but I'm not educated enough on receivers and video formats to confidently recommend a plan of action. So, I figured I'd ask you guys!

Here are my questions:

1. Is the Denon the best upscaling for the money now? He would pay a little more or a little less for better.

2. He doesn't think I can run HDMI cables to the TV because of something about the wall. Is there any purpose of getting the upscaling if I can't use an HDMI to the TV? Excuse my ignorance on video, I'm trying to catch up with technology.

3. His speakers are M&K S-150 inwalls L,C,R and M&K S-50 inwalls for the rears. This is important because those of you who know M&K, know how much their speakers like power. I want to recommend seperates for him, but I don't think he'd go for it. A shame. Anyways, I wanted to mention that. If you have any reasonable recommendations for seperates, let me know (he won't buy anything ID, so Emotiva and all that jazz is out). (He currently has two Pinnacle 12" SuperSonic's for the low end, if that is of importance)

So is the CI a good choice? Is the Onkyo better? I've heard talk about superior DACs? I know what a DAC is, but, how much superior are we talking? Which will power the M&Ks better, or should I really push him to go to seperates? If seperates are the way to go, what's a pre-amp/amp combo (remember, no ID) that will provide him with great video upscaling? And finally, will not being able to run a HDMI cable to the TV hose up the whole thing? I think he has component running there now, I'll have to check when I get down there though.

Sorry for the long post!

 

[cbraver]

I made a mistake! He wants the 5308CI, not the 3808CI. My mistake, I misheard him.

I can't edit my original post for some reason. But, my questions still remain, except the Onkyo I was looking at seemed competative with the 3808, but not the 5308.

MSRP on the 5308CI is $5200, what's street price buying it right?

I need 6 HDMI inputs (don't ask, he has a lot of stuff, haha). The Denon has 6.

I'd still like to talk him into a pre-amp/amp seperate setup, but, if he insists on just a receiver then so it be.

 

[PENG]

For whatever reasons, upscaling does next to nothing for me. I find that if I want high definition picture quality I need to use high definition source.

The Onkyo 875 has more power based on some AV magazine lab measurements but it isn't that significant in terms of dBW. I am not sure about the in wall M&K speakers but if they are 4 ohms, you should at least add a 2 channel amplifier. The Onkyo would probably be powerful enough for a pair of 4 ohm speakers but it will likely run hot and may not let you get the best out of the M&K if they really are 4 ohm speakers.

 

[adk highlander]

The upscaling and processing on the Onkyo models ONLY functions through the HDMI connection and they will not down-convert HDMI to component. So if he wants to use the scaling and the 6 HDMI inputs he will need to run an HDMI cable to the TV.

I don't know about the Denon but I would believe it would not downconvert the HDMI as well. I believe this has to do with the HDCP (content protection) and Blu-ray and HD-DVD will not put 1080p through component.

 

[Addy]

i personally think hes better off getting a 4308ci and matching it with a amp to ease off the load. this would be cheaper then the 5308ci and produce a huge amount of power at different loads..consider the new emotiva 7 channel amp for 799.99 coming out in march or something. the 4308ci can be picked up on ebay new for around 1800 but it only has 4 hdmi.. i dont think its worth the 3400 for 2 hdmi...

 

[cbraver]

Thanks for the responses guys!

I convinced him to go to seperates, but I don't know what to recommend him yet. He (and I, for that matter) don't want to use ID brands like Emotiva.

I originally was thinking pro-amps: I was thinking 3x Crown DSi-1000's, which are about 550 bucks each with 475Wx2 at 4-ohms and integrated DSP. Or maybe three XLS402s, which would be good also. The power is a little bit overkill, but gain knobs are your friend and competative home audio stuff is way more money. The problem with the pro amps is the fans, not sure what three Crowns sounds like stacked. His gear is off to the side in a rack, but, it's still in the same room.

But, I want to get some consumer product ideas. Not sure on what pre-amp and seperates are a good combo though. I was thinking Sunfire might be a good option? The TGA 5200 is 400W per channel at 4-ohms, seven channel amp. Looks like it goes for about 2300 bucks. Not sure on the pre-amp either.

 

[Davemcc]

The Integra DTC-9.8 is the happening thing in preamps these days.
http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DTC-9.8&class=Separates&p=f
4 x HDMI input, 2 x HDMI output. The beauty of HDMI is that it contains both audio and video in a single cable, so a simple HDMI switcher can be added to connect other components.

This also uses the Reon HQV video processor, which by all accounts that I've seen is superior to the Faroudja.

For amps, look into the Behringer A500. No fans, tons of power.

You really do need to get an HDMI cable to the TV. HDMI is the future of HD.

 

[Mark in GA]

Onkyo 875

I am new to the forum here, but I upgraded to an Onkyo SR875 at Christmas. It seems to be very powerful, but let me tell you this sucker gets HOT!!! I have mine in my entertainment system cabinet with about 1-1.5" clearance on each side, about 8" clearance above. After running mine for the first time, I immediately ordered up a pair of 120mm case-cooling fans and wired those up. That made a huge difference.

I would guess a high powered Denon amp might have the same issue, but the Onkyo definitely does!

Later,
Mark in GA

 

[cbraver]

The Integra DTC-9.8 is the happening thing in preamps these days.
http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DTC-9.8&class=Separates&p=f
4 x HDMI input, 2 x HDMI output. The beauty of HDMI is that it contains both audio and video in a single cable, so a simple HDMI switcher can be added to connect other components.

This also uses the Reon HQV video processor, which by all accounts that I've seen is superior to the Faroudja.

I was looking at that earlier this year, but wasn't sure of Integra's quality. I love the balanced outputs too. How is the Reon HQV superior to the Faroudja? My dad is very big into good picture quality, so that's an important aspect of the pre-amp I choose.

You really do need to get an HDMI cable to the TV. HDMI is the future of HD.

Yeah, I'm going to figure something out once I get there. There must be a way to get a HDMI cable to that TV.

 

[Davemcc]

http://www.hqv.com/technology.cfm

This is a great little series of videos produced by HQV that explains how the processor works. It's also a good source of general background knowledge for all things video.

How this is different from Faroudja, I couldn't give you specifics. But my understanding is that Faroudja is an older chip and doesn't do some of the things shown in the video quite as well as the Reon.

 

[cbraver]

Bookmarked! I'm going to read that at the end of the day today, thanks, that site looks really helpful.

What do you think of the Onkyo Pro PR-SC885P? It looks like basically the same thing, only I can screw it right into the rack instead of using a shelf and faceplate set. haha.

 

[Davemcc]

Bookmarked! I'm going to read that at the end of the day today, thanks, that site looks really helpful.

What do you think of the Onkyo Pro PR-SC885P? It looks like basically the same thing, only I can screw it right into the rack instead of using a shelf and faceplate set. haha.

I think ADK Highlander has the Onkyo and that it is basically the same, but for minor changes in pure direct mode. Shoot him a PM.

I'm also considering the DTC-9.8 but I'm waiting to see how the market develops for HDMI 1.3 processors later this year.

 

[ParkerAudio]

I don't seem to have a problem with the 875 running hot. Ran it 3 hours yesterday pushing a 7.1 surround, with large Def Techs in the front, didn't seem that warm. It was warm, but I could easily leave my hand on the case. However, I have at least 3 inches above the receiver in the cabinet and a open back. All the same though, I have purchased the Antec fan, which seems like a good idea regardless.

http://www.amazon.com/Antec-Profile-Component-Theater-Products/dp/B000QJ4ZE2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1202230761&sr=8-2

I just got my 875 last week and I absolutely love it. Had a Denon 3805 before and can notice a big difference in the surround sound. Looked at the 4308 Denon and the Integra separates, but I just can't get over everything you get for your buck with the Onkyo 875. Plus the Reon chip really makes my HD Motorola cable box look 10 times better.

I would have spent far more, but didn't feel the need to. Right now Amazon.com has the best price at $1168.

It seems like the biggest problem you have is that you can't for some reason use HDMI?? If you are spending $5200 for a reciever, some money ought to be spent to remedy that problem.

 

[Highbar]

What kind of tv is he using? I only ask because I'm usually a big believer in them having good scalers in them, so why should I spend my money on a receiver with one in it?

Like everyone said you need to get HDMI to the tv or you'll be stuck running all component and digital audio cables. HDMI can't be down converted.

T

 

[Addy]

see i dont see the sense in having a reon chip or anything up converting since i have blu-ray an would run pass through, this would just mess up the single

 

[Jack Hammer]

Room size and how loud he will listen are a large factor in how much power he may need.
I'm using S150s in the fronts with 4 SS150s for surrounds (all 4ohm). In my small place my denon 2805 had more than enough power for those. Now i'm using a Denon 3808ci and it barely gets warm. Remember that the M&K speakers are 4ohm but are designed to be used with a subwoofer with an 80hz crossover. They don't need the kind of power that a speaker with a lower hz may need, unless the sub your using isn't self powered. Any of the recievers you mentioned should be able to drive his speakers.

As for the upscaling, I'm happy with it, but don't have any personal experience with other AVR upscaling.

Jack

 

[Davemcc]

You haven't mentioned what your father's video sources are. If he has a cheap, even mid-level upscaling DVD player, the Reon will probably do a better job of upscaling. If he's using an HD cable box that outputs 1080i, he may also benefit from the Reon, depending on the age and quality of the scaler in the TV. I haven't come across any source to determine which TV's have good scalers or how the scalers in various TV's compare to good external scalers.

Maybe Highbar could give some suggestions on that front.

 

[cbraver]

Room size and how loud he will listen are a large factor in how much power he may need.
I'm using S150s in the fronts with 4 SS150s for surrounds (all 4ohm). In my small place my denon 2805 had more than enough power for those. Now i'm using a Denon 3808ci and it barely gets warm. Remember that the M&K speakers are 4ohm but are designed to be used with a subwoofer with an 80hz crossover. They don't need the kind of power that a speaker with a lower hz may need, unless the sub your using isn't self powered. Any of the recievers you mentioned should be able to drive his speakers.

As for the upscaling, I'm happy with it, but don't have any personal experience with other AVR upscaling.

Jack

Have you ever tried them with bigger amps? They sound find now with the Denon in his living room, but they really like power. The room is also fairly large. I have S-150s, SS-150s and LCR-750s back home also (not inwalls, the regular enclosures), and they all love power. That seems to be the general consensius on other forums where M&K is more popular also (btw, great speaker choice Jack. )

Also, based on the price of that Denon. He could get the Onkyo with three nice amps and be at around the same money as buying the Denon receiver, it looks like. So, that's part of the my thinking also. Also his constant desire to upgrade makes it seem silly to go the receiver route because then he'll be paying to "repower" every time he wants a new feature.

You haven't mentioned what your father's video sources are. If he has a cheap, even mid-level upscaling DVD player, the Reon will probably do a better job of upscaling. If he's using an HD cable box that outputs 1080i, he may also benefit from the Reon, depending on the age and quality of the scaler in the TV. I haven't come across any source to determine which TV's have good scalers or how the scalers in various TV's compare to good external scalers.

Maybe Highbar could give some suggestions on that front.

Denon's new Blu-Ray player is going to be the movie source, there is also a older (but still great) Denon DVD player in there I might remove, a Escient Fireball, Satelite (not sure what it outputs, I think it is 1080i), Playstation, and a some others I'm forgetting. The TV is a Samsung 63" plasma.

The Onkyo seems to be a good option, now is just finding some amps that make sense.

You guys are always so helpful, I really appreciate it.

 

[Davemcc]

The Denon BD player uses the Realta HQV processor, which is even a step above the Reon. There should be no use for any other player in the system.

 

[aarond]

I am new to the forum here, but I upgraded to an Onkyo SR875 at Christmas. It seems to be very powerful, but let me tell you this sucker gets HOT!!! I have mine in my entertainment system cabinet with about 1-1.5" clearance on each side, about 8" clearance above. After running mine for the first time, I immediately ordered up a pair of 120mm case-cooling fans and wired those up. That made a huge difference.

I would guess a high powered Denon amp might have the same issue, but the Onkyo definitely does!

Later,
Mark in GA

not enough room to breathe her are the clearance requirements from the 805/875 manual page 2.

18. If you install the apparatus in a built-in installation,
such as a bookcase or rack, ensure that there is adequate
ventilation.
Leave 20 cm (8") of free space at the top and sides
and 10 cm (4") at the rear. The rear edge of the shelf
or board above the apparatus shall be set 10 cm (4")
away from the rear panel or wall, creating a flue-like
gap for warm air to escape