Harman Kardon Beats Denon

[Elvis1977]

My Dad......Your Dad; My Mom.......Your Mom.

Come on!

I just read about 2/3rds of this thread and quit. As it got off the path @ the 4th page. Let's just say that personal taste and individual perception is the most important factor when buying something. Now if any of you wants to say "here this receiver X is better" and then actually go out and buy it for me then OK. How can I debate that, I didn't even shell out the coin for it so who cares.

Elvis1977, hats off to you for the thread title, that is really why it is over 20 pages long, 200+ replies and 6500+ views. I don't recall anyone for thanking Elvis, especially an administrator or more importantly one of the owners of the forum itself for getting such "play". This thread undoubtably caused some rift and probably caused some to actually join the forum in order to post.

I too have loved H/K for some time. I also have JBL and Infinity speakers, see sig. I got many of these for free or well below retail back in my days of CC employment. However, I have listened to many new speakers and have to say that for the $ JBL is still a pretty good bet.

Again this is like saying a blue display is better than a green or orange one, hey maybe I'll start that thread!

At least Elvis1977 took the time to try and set up a good A/B test. We can only mention and hope levels and such were somewhat equal. Remember that for most of us to even truely percieve a difference it has to be interpreted within 6-10 seconds from one another, just plain simple "human hearing memory".

Cheers.

Well It's me again, back from the dead. I must say this thread should have been in the grave with me a long time ago. I believe there is just too many Denon fans on this web site that had to get their 2 cents worth. Especially when Denon costs more than H/K right now.I still believe that H/k RULES when it comes to all music listening modes especially the logic 7. Home theater sound is too close to call. They are all good in theater sound. Remember, the ALL CHANNEL STEREO mode is a rigerous test to see if the receiver has good overall sound quality. Whatever H/K does that makes the sound so smooth and never harsh is unbelivable. Like I said, my jaw dropped when I could see the 4306 was not as good as the 645 and it was three times the price. True, the 645 is being phased out for their new models coming soon. I will go on to say that my second choice receiver would be a Denon for sure. The Denon 4306 was excellent is all modes, but HK 645 was better. My third choice would be ONKYO. The thing about Onkyo is that it seems a little bassy sometimes and other times it can be quite harsh on the highs. Onkyo setup menu and quality build is excellent I admit.
I' m going back in my grave and talking this thread with me so lets kill this novel once and for all. By the way, "I'm a hunka hunka burning love" that's run out of words to say.

 

[fishairflow]

well - I could not read the whole thread but here is what my personal opinion is. I compared
HK 635 vs Denon 2703 vs Yamaha 5806 (these are the ones I have owned and then given them to my relatives as I upgraded) and among thsoe - the best sounding are HK 635.

HOWEVER- after recently acquiring Def Tech Mythos One - I have to say that I am considering upgrading to Denon 3806.

HKs were the loudest and had the best noise seperation among the three. Thats about all my "expertise" can give for now..

 

[trnqk7]

I'll throw in my 2 cents-I upgraded from an Onkyo 601 to a Denon 2807...I like the Denon a lot, especially for all the connectivity and for movies and the direct modes, but I more fondly remember the sound of the Onkyo receiver as just being smoother or something. The Denon is perhaps described as unforgiving to bad recordings. Onkyo was also much easier to setup and use! Still loving my Denon though!

 

[no. 5]

Let it be known I am all for buying the brand that you have a fancy for, I'm all for buying what looks good (I think H/K makes one good looking receiver), but statements like the ones above make me nervous.

I do not intend to offend by that statement, offending people brings me no enjoyment, but comparisons as described above are completely unreliable in determining a 'winner' between brands X, Y and Z.

How has the comparison done? Were receivers X, Y and Z calibrated before the comparison, so as to quickly swap them out and maintain the channel levels, and overall volume? How much time was between listening to each? Was the same material used for all tests?

Like I said, I have nothing against you liking whatever you like for whatever reason, but shouldn't a comparison be done so as to reliable find the best?
As example:

...the best sounding are HK 635
HKs were the loudest...

Now, given the brain will conclude that the louder of two identical sounds is the better one, how reliable do you think the test was?
There may very well be audible differences between receivers X, Y and Z, but if those differences are to be flushed out, it must be done in a way that prevents your brain from fooling you.

But, hay, buy what you want to buy, you'll be happier for it.

 

[trnqk7]

my post makes you nervous? I am not "offended" if it does, but I merely stated my preferences and did not say anything about it being better for everyone or that anyone should buy either brand...

 

[no. 5]

my post makes you nervous?

Not your post, I was still typing when you posted. What can I say, I'm a slow post conceiver, and typer.

I am not "offended" if it does, but I merely stated my preferences and did not say anything about it being better for everyone or that anyone should buy either brand...

And it's fine that it's your preference, nothing wrong with that, the point of my post is that declaring a sound quality winner from a comparison that was carried out without any consideration given to removing bias is flawed.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...but statements like the ones above make me nervous.
How has the comparison done? Were receivers X, Y and Z calibrated before the comparison, so as to quickly swap them out and maintain the channel levels, and overall volume? How much time was between listening to each? Was the same material used for all tests?

Like I said, I have nothing against you liking whatever you like for whatever reason, but shouldn't a comparison be done so as to reliable find the best?
As example:

Now, given the brain will conclude that the louder of two identical sounds is the better one, how reliable do you think the test was?
There may very well be audible differences between receivers X, Y and Z, but if those differences are to be flushed out, it must be done in a way that prevents your brain from fooling you.

But, hay, buy what you want to buy, you'll be happier for it.

Yep, make me nervous as well, a lot.
There is more to listening and comparing than just listening

 

[yettitheman]

Hehe
I just want to see the Yammy's bottom out and sound like crap . Put the Yammy vs a Sunfire .

Ok. I'll play. I'll put my Yamaha in the ring:

I don't think it'll bottom out

 

[Seth=L]

I agree Yetti, that amp has big balls.

 

[gus6464]

Why the Yammy hate?

But seriously wouldn't two receivers technically sound different if they have different DACs and the such?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Why the Yammy hate?

But seriously wouldn't two receivers technically sound different if they have different DACs and the such?

Not if they are well designed, operated withing design limits, levels matched, low output impedance-SS types.

 

[Pipelayer]

Anyone for an H/K-Denon-Yamaha blind listening comparo? Mtry?

Ha! Ha! Ha! Hi! No need my friend, Denon's are busting down doors; kickiing as* and taking names. Saving six or seven hundred dollars is a lot of motivation to convince one's self that his amp choice sounds better. NO... but seriously, whatever you like is best for you, my money and listening pleasure is on the Denon

 

[wire]

Ok. I'll play. I'll put my Yamaha in the ring:

I don't think it'll bottom out

Hehe
thats what a Yammy amp reciever looks like .
At least that has power supply .

 

[wire]

Why the Yammy hate?

But seriously wouldn't two receivers technically sound different if they have different DACs and the such?

The Amps that come in the Yammy's recievers are less that desirable . Its has nothing to do with DACs or the pre/pro sections .

 

[Pipelayer]

Here's some advice and I'm sure you won't regret it if you take it. Anyone seriously considering a new receiver needs to go and listen to the new Denons 08 series (2308,2808, 3808, etc.). Hear them for yourself! We're talking about something new, something different, somthing spectacular. All the reviews I read had good things and not so good things to say about the 08 series.

But they all agreed, everyone, without question, the sound quality was phenomenal. I just received mine today (Denon AVR2808CI) and as far as I'm concerned, that is a gross understatement! The sound quality on this amp is like nothing I've ever encountered. Sounding much better than most flagship receivers from other manufacturers. I would venture to say..... it's the best I've ever heard; and I repair these things.... regularly.

 

[Seth=L]

The Amps that come in the Yammy's recievers are less that desirable . Its has nothing to do with DACs or the pre/pro sections .

I will plainly say, they are not any different in terms of quality, period.

Here's some advice and I'm sure you won't regret it if you take it. Anyone seriously considering a new receiver needs to go and listen to the new Denons 08 series (2308,2808, 3808, etc.). Hear them for yourself! We're talking about something new, something different, somthing spectacular. All the reviews I read had good things and not so good things to say about the 08 series.

But they all agreed, everyone, without question, the sound quality was phenomenal. I just received mine today (Denon AVR2808CI) and as far as I'm concerned, that is a gross understatement! The sound quality on this amp is like nothing I've ever encountered. Sounding much better than most flagship receivers from other manufacturers. I would venture to say..... it's the best I've ever heard; and I repair these things.... regularly.

This sounds like a huge fanboy post, and I am of the opinion that they sound no different than their competitors at the same price.

 

[Seth=L]

Hehe
thats what a Yammy amp reciever looks like .
At least that has power supply .

You just don't know what you are talking about is what it is.

 

[Pipelayer]

This sounds like a huge fanboy post.

You are precisely right, I am a fan, a really big fan...... but that's only after listening to the competitors.

and I am of the opinion that they sound no different than their competitors at the same price.

I have absolutely no problem with that; the reason being, as we know.... everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

[Seth=L]

You are precisely right, I am a fan, a really big fan...... but that's only after listening to the competitors.


I have absolutely no problem with that; the reason being, as we know.... everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

See, the thing is, it isn't hard to build a neutral class A/B amplifier. Most receivers made by Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, Pioneer, Harman Kardon, Yamaha and plenty more, use Class A/B amplification. So long as a receiver has a hefty power supply and solid output stage they are going to sound pretty much the same. When you get a different receiver it is feasible that it would sound slightly different, and ever so slightly that only those with super acute hearing would notice the subtle differences between them.

If you bought a receiver and it suddenly sounded phenominally better/different than the one you had before at higher volumes, then it would be safe to assume that the new one has better drive cabability or more power, or both. If it sounded better/different at any volume, then assume the one you had before was faulty or the new one is faulty, because they shouldn't sound hugely different, or sound different at all. Other than power and drive ability they should sound pretty much the same, and like I said, if they don't then one of them has a fault.

Also, where the receivers set up the same way with the same room parameters and speakers? If an autosetup was used it could be different depending on the manufacturer, doing a manual setup with an SPL meter and other measuring tools would need to be done to ensure that each receiver was set up optimally for the parameters.

A receiver should not affect the sound as some would think it does, if set up correctly and used within its design parameters (power limitations) they should sound almost if not completely one in the same. The things that dictate you sound "quality" are source material, speakers, and room accoustics, or at least an overwhelming large part.

The way you put it, it sounds like your Denon vastly supercedes any other receiver you have heard, but under what conditions was this done? Did you level match, did you do a DBT, where all speakers and arrangements the same? If it sounded so hugely different then you would have to assume that receivers heavily color your sound, but they don't, they are as close to neutral as possible.

I have done some, not much but enough, level matched DBTs in the past when I had a speaker selector/amplifier selector, and I have to say I couldn't tell you the difference between one receiver or the other, given that neither was pressed to extreme levels of output.

 

[Pipelayer]

You make a good point Seth an we'll both just leave it at that. Wish you the best friend. And I do regard what you say, have not forgot the good
information you offered when I first joined this forum, that information allowed me to put toghether a really nice system that I am extremely pleased with. Thanks very much-