Suggestions For Home Theatre-Two Channel Rig

Z

Zar

Audioholic Intern
Hi all. My brother is trying to put together a system but is in a quandry. These are my impressions. He wants real good stuff but won't spend the money even though he has it. In other words he's cheap. He also is never home, when he is he has no time to himself as his wife and kids eat it up. He wants to get Arcam for the amp and DVD player, for the speakers he is thinking about Paradigm Studio 40's or Vandy 2c's. I think he should get an affordable rig that represents good value as I personally don't think he will be able to enjoy it as much as he thinks he will or wants to. I believe at this time his interests are leaned more towards movies than music. Any advice will be appreciated and I will pass it on to him. Thanks.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
a two channel rig and HT are two different things. In HT the center and sub become the most important pieces, for music it is the 2 main speakers. I doubt that he needs an amp so talk him into getting a good AVR and the studio 40's and he can build a HT from there

Hi all. My brother is trying to put together a system but is in a quandry. These are my impressions. He wants real good stuff but won't spend the money even though he has it. In other words he's cheap. He also is never home, when he is he has no time to himself as his wife and kids eat it up. He wants to get Arcam for the amp and DVD player, for the speakers he is thinking about Paradigm Studio 40's or Vandy 2c's. I think he should get an affordable rig that represents good value as I personally don't think he will be able to enjoy it as much as he thinks he will or wants to. I believe at this time his interests are leaned more towards movies than music. Any advice will be appreciated and I will pass it on to him. Thanks.
 
Z

Zar

Audioholic Intern
Greg, thanks for responding. I do know the difference but I was trying to convey that he will listen to his music via the DVD player and the front speakers. I think he will watch more movies than listen to music. So you like the Paradigms? Thanks.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
won't spend the money even though he has it.
I wish I had this problem. :D
he's cheap. ... He wants to get Arcam for the amp and DVD player, for the speakers he is thinking about Paradigm Studio 40's or Vandy 2c's.
Arcam electronics and Paradigm 40 speakers are not cheap when compared to other options out there. In fact, for the price they represent excellent quality and value.
I think he should get an affordable rig that represents good value
What budget are you proposing and options are you looking at?
I personally don't think he will be able to enjoy it as much as he thinks he will or wants to.
That is completely subjective. Maybe he want to have a good setup for the times when he can get away from the family. Maybe he wants peace of mind in the knowledge that he as top knotch equipment. Nothing wrong with that, to each his own.
I believe at this time his interests are leaned more towards movies than music.
Does he care about the HD formats? This will influence the choice of player and receiver/ pre-pro. To enjoy movies a minimum of 5.1 speaker setup is recommended and 6.1 or 7.1 if the room is big enough. A subwoofer is the keystone, don't skimp on it.
 
Z

Zar

Audioholic Intern
A, you make some good points and I don't know that I can answer them all. He probably would die if he had to spend 5k for a whole setup, though he could afford that easily. As for options I think he is not really looking at anything but Arcam but he can't pull the trigger. For speakers he is thinking Paradigm and Vandersteen. A local dealer and a friend with whom we have done business with since the 70's carries mainly Rotel electronics. He carries B&W, Totem, and Gallo speakers. My brother currently has a Marantz AV receiver and a Denon DVD player. Not sure of the speakers but he wants to upgrade the whole set up. I think he should go for the Rotel since he woul get a good price from our friend but I don't know how he feels about it. I understand about having really good stuff but the more he ponders the more he puts it off. Music is more of a priority to me and I have spent more on it. My home theatre rig is Integra for the receiver and I have Energy speakers and a sub. I just bought a Oppo 981hd DVD player to replace my Integra DPS 5.2 which I thought a excellent player despite not being progressive scan. I hve been very happy with my movie watching with this very modest and relatively inexpensive set up.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
ummm...yes I like Paradigms...that's why I have them...

Greg, thanks for responding. I do know the difference but I was trying to convey that he will listen to his music via the DVD player and the front speakers. I think he will watch more movies than listen to music. So you like the Paradigms? Thanks.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
a two channel rig and HT are two different things. In HT the center and sub become the most important pieces, for music it is the 2 main speakers. I doubt that he needs an amp so talk him into getting a good AVR and the studio 40's and he can build a HT from there
GG, I slightly disagree. While the center is the most important if you have to have one, I think that with many AV cabinets and living rooms around the world, a phantom (missing) center actually might sound superior for numerous reasons I will not get into at this very moment. Then, bookshelves like those Paradigms will want a sub, in either case as well. (I myself will always want a center for my foreseeable future, but I will try to take pains in the future to make sure that the choice is not a compromise).

OP, just another bookshelf pair to listen to are Monitor Audio Gold Reference 10s. I've seen them for 1k. hf.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Did you say Totem?

A, you make some good points and I don't know that I can answer them all. He probably would die if he had to spend 5k for a whole setup, though he could afford that easily. As for options I think he is not really looking at anything but Arcam but he can't pull the trigger. For speakers he is thinking Paradigm and Vandersteen. A local dealer and a friend with whom we have done business with since the 70's carries mainly Rotel electronics. He carries B&W, Totem, and Gallo speakers. My brother currently has a Marantz AV receiver and a Denon DVD player. Not sure of the speakers but he wants to upgrade the whole set up. I think he should go for the Rotel since he woul get a good price from our friend but I don't know how he feels about it. I understand about having really good stuff but the more he ponders the more he puts it off. Music is more of a priority to me and I have spent more on it. My home theatre rig is Integra for the receiver and I have Energy speakers and a sub. I just bought a Oppo 981hd DVD player to replace my Integra DPS 5.2 which I thought a excellent player despite not being progressive scan. I hve been very happy with my movie watching with this very modest and relatively inexpensive set up.
Which Totem model is talking about? Personally, I think Totem is a step up from Paradigm and I'll probably be crucified for saying so. :eek: Problem with Totem is that they are ineffeicient and require a good stout amp to drive them. Many people who heard Totem that I talked too love Totem. Its definately worth an audition and a comparison to the Studio 40s.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
That's just silly(the center channel comment) and yes bookshelfs need a sub just like towers need one for HT

GG, I slightly disagree. While the center is the most important if you have to have one, I think that with many AV cabinets and living rooms around the world, a phantom (missing) center actually might sound superior for numerous reasons I will not get into at this very moment. Then, bookshelves like those Paradigms will want a sub, in either case as well. (I myself will always want a center for my foreseeable future, but I will try to take pains in the future to make sure that the choice is not a compromise).

OP, just another bookshelf pair to listen to are Monitor Audio Gold Reference 10s. I've seen them for 1k. hf.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
You wont be crucified by me; I am all for finding a speaker you like and going with it.

Which Totem model is talking about? Personally, I think Totem is a step up from Paradigm and I'll probably be crucified for saying so. :eek: Problem with Totem is that they are ineffeicient and require a good stout amp to drive them. Many people who heard Totem that I talked too love Totem. Its definately worth an audition and a comparison to the Studio 40s.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
That's just silly(the center channel comment)
Innumberable audiophiles will disagree with you. Like I said, its dependent on numerous factors. I'll get into it later today/evening when I have more time. Cheers.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Dont make me sic Andrew on you. I wont take time to research and debate what ever you come up with but he will:D

Innumberable audiophiles will disagree with you. Like I said, its dependent on numerous factors. I'll get into it later today/evening when I have more time. Cheers.
 
C

cornelius

Full Audioholic
I think he should stick to 2 Channel! The best for music, it actually sounds great for HT, and if he's a busy guy - 2 channel is basically plug and play.

I was thinking of going with an Arcam DVD player, but for the price, I didn't want a machine that might be out-dated in a few years or just might die. A good, affordable combo for 2 Channel could be an Oppo DVD player, and a Pacific Valve modded - Lite Audio DAC AM. Total cost is about $500-600 - it plays music like a $1000 CD player, but can play movies too. And, if you need to replace the Oppo with the next new format - then ditch it and keep the DAC.

I've owned Arcam integrateds and power amps - they're definitely nice. I've since moved on, but I always had good luck with Arcam.

Speaker-wise I much prefer Vandys over Paradigm, but he'll have to make that call himself. From my experience, with speakers like the Vandys, you won't be missing a center channel, or sub when watching movies. And of course, they play music beautifully. The only other recommendation that I'd make would be Ohm Acoustic Walsh speakers (size is room dependent). Easy to set up, sound great.

So... If he really wants an Arcam amp and Vandersteen speakers -these are high value components - I think worth the money. The only item that might not be a great investment would be the Arcam DVD. Good luck!
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Greg,

First of all I did say it "might" sound superior. I'll somehow assume your remark was not really meant to be a cursory or provincial bashing, nonetheless, I wish we all (myself included) would not have such polar opinions, or at least have them less often. You know, like the whole receiver vs separate amp thing. There are always some factors involved, right? Anyways, you also did notice that I always plan on having a center as well? It is true that the ideal setup would have one. However, pains sometimes must be incurred to get it right though, at least in some living rooms and/or AV cabinets.

-First of all, the vast majority of "matching center channels" are compromises in design with their horizontally arrayed mtm's. This creates off-axis issues with freq-response/phase/lobing. You sit front and center? Cool, then phantom might work too. The only brands that I can think of off the top of my head with top-mounted tweeters for the centers are B&W and Revel. There must be others, I just don't know them off-hand. See, the mtm is dispersing up-and-down, not side-to-side like towers would.

Then compare the "matching center channel" with the towers involved. Often, the "quality towers" seem to be of superior quality than the "matching center". Assumptions, perhaps, impressions as well. They often sound better, and the cabinets are sure larger.

Then look how many people have a dinky mtm center shoved into the cabinet, with all of its terrible reflections and resonances. Not allowing much in the way of disperion, and very possibly loaded with distortion. Im not saying always, right(?), Im just saying there are living rooms and AV cabinets out there that might cause such effects. Otoh, towers can be placed away from room boundaries (or boundaries of any kind, besides floor of course), corners, tv stands, whatever, for superior dispersion, response, imaging, whatever man. Having a center channel is very nice to have in order to center the dialogue, but I think my point was that some people never even considered phantom, when it just might actually sound superior. They could be completely ASSUMING having the center is ALWAYS best and never even gave it a thought. How many people buy 5 speakers, for say $1k? Subtract the center, you probably get an extra $300 to throw into the towers. Just possibilities, but I think they would be prudent to consider at least in certain situations.

So, money saved by not spending on the center channel can then be used for even better mains. And you know what, I find that center channels are normally over-priced for the quality received in comparison to their matching towers. They charge more because they can, because heck, its the "matching center".

I think its possible (especially for sweet spot viewers who have very nice towers) to get superior audio, if the alternative was shoving a dinky mtm center into a reflective AV cabinet.

If I ever upgrade/downgrade/change my horizontal center in the future, I will probably put it on a center stand. I don't want to deal with the looks right now. Mine fits just perfectly underneath the display, w/o blocking IR, yet it is surely still dealing with reflections by sitting on the cabinet, even if there is not a shelf on its sides, nor above it. I say this even if it protrudes from beyond the lip of the cabinet as well.

Of course, the best scenario would be to have 3 identical towers in the front. An acoustically transparent screen? My friend works for Da-Lite screens, and he say don't get it because the pq suffers in his opinion. What to do? Perhaps a top-mounted-tweeter center firing upwards from a center stand...... or phantom-imaging like some projection owners do, for precisely the reasons stated.

I was only throwing an idea out to be considered that indeed has some merit; its not "just silly".

Lastly, for those of you may try the phatom setup for any reason, aforementioned or not, it is most successful by avoiding a null spot. If your towers image very well, you are less likely to have issue of course. Otherwise, bringing the mains closer together will help. A compromise might be a smaller soundstage, but again, as always, it depends on your room/setup.
 
Thaedium

Thaedium

Audioholic
jostenmeat,

I have to say, I can't argue with any of those pitfalls you've elaborated on. Most of it seems sound, but - and I know you've pointed to certain scenarios here - much of those pitfalls are based on a number of specific issues you've outlined.

The primary cause of these pitfalls are the "dinky mtm centre" shoved into small cabinets as you've stated. My only contention is that most of us here at this site and most A/V enthuisiasts are either knowledgable enough or on their way there to avoid such poor choice of centres. The only real dinky centres I know of are the ones that come from HTIB setups. My roomate bought a panasonic HTIB and his centre channel probably weighs the same as my 4 - 1/2" midrange driver in my CC-690 centre. Thus, if the person is using a HTIB setup for their HT then they're probably not even aware of proper speaker placement and it really doesnt matter to that individual.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your wrong at all. As you've said already, a good pair of mains will outplay any sort of "dinky centres"/HTIB speakers by far. So I agree, spend the money on the mains, that way you have a good 2 channel setup to start with. At this point, you can always get your upgraditis on and invest in a centre, and surrounds.

I believe what Greg was getting at though is that if your a movie watcher, and you have the money then invest in that centre channel because it will pay off. If the man is going to be buying a set of Studio 40's, get the CC-590 centre and the ADP-590's for surrounds and you will improve your movie experience drastically over just the 2 channel setup.

Speaking of getting the ADP-590's... I need to go do that :D
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
Snarl Snarl - I got sicked...

I do not want to jack this thread, but believe it these comments should be addressed. Due to this I will only reply once here. If more discussion is needed a thread can be created by someone and devoted to the subject of center channel design. Secondly, I have no authority in this field, but do love to learn about the subject and am planning on building my own speakers thus am doing much research. Now that this is out of the way my response :).

-First of all, the vast majority of "matching center channels" are compromises in design with their horizontally arrayed mtm's. This creates off-axis issues with freq-response/phase/lobing.
I cannot entirely argue that most centers are not compromises in design, but why is this? Many people have the paradigm that a center is a horizonal MTM configuration ingrained in their head, thus speaker manufacturers fall into a self fulfilling prophecy making this arrangement. A couple companies even made a TM configuration originally and under complaint from their customers for "not having a proper center" released a MTM replacing it. I believe Aperion is an example of this.

Though the MTM design is not necessarily the best, there are ways that it can be designed to function optimally. This article is an example of what can be done by manufactures to do a better job in center design. While this article does not completely answer the problem it does show that this problem can be dealt with with some success with proper knowledge.

Now I realize this is all theory and much has yet to be implemented by conventional speaker designers so what is one to do if they want a center and the best frequency response possible? Buy a matching bookshelf to the towers if they have one and use it horizontally or put it on a smaller stand and angle approprialty! Most dealers will hook you up and many ID dealers will be willing to work. This will probably be cheaper than buying a center as their price is usually inflated too. The other option, buy a center and use it vertically placed below the source with proper angling as well. I have suggested both of these to many people and have had great success.

Then look how many people have a dinky mtm center shoved into the cabinet, with all of its terrible reflections and resonances. Not allowing much in the way of disperion, and very possibly loaded with distortion. Im not saying always, right(?), Im just saying there are living rooms and AV cabinets out there that might cause such effects.
Proper placement of a center within a cabinet will not effect sound quality, but again this is Audioholics in general there is a greater knowledge of subject matter here it isn't your run of the mill big box store so hopefully if one posts here they plan to do things right. Yes this is conjecture, but one can easily argue that people have any one of their speakers placed improperly. The sub is especially hard to place and often placed in an unideal location, does that mean we shouldn't have one?

So, money saved by not spending on the center channel can then be used for even better mains. And you know what, I find that center channels are normally over-priced for the quality received in comparison to their matching towers. They charge more because they can, because heck, its the "matching center".
Agreed, which is why I usually say get the matching bookshelf as they aren't as expensive and do a better job than a center :).

Of course, the best scenario would be to have 3 identical towers in the front. An acoustically transparent screen? My friend works for Da-Lite screens, and he say don't get it because the pq suffers in his opinion. What to do? Perhaps a top-mounted-tweeter center firing upwards from a center stand...... or phantom-imaging like some projection owners do, for precisely the reasons stated.
When I am all growed up I will have towers everywhere!!!! :p

From what I have seen acoustically transparent Da-Lite screens suck. I have seen SeymourAV and they are great. Granted you do lose some some PQ, but the gain in audio quality is well worth it in my opinion.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
A few comments

Then compare the "matching center channel" with the towers involved. Often, the "quality towers" seem to be of superior quality than the "matching center". Assumptions, perhaps, impressions as well. They often sound better, and the cabinets are sure larger.
I would say that you are generalizing here. I find it difficult to believe that a reputable speaker manufacturer would cut corners on their center channel so that they can invest the money on their towers. Speaking from what I own, PSB image series, I would definately say that the center channel is of the same caliber of workmanship as are my towers, conatianing the identical drivers that are contained in my towers


So, money saved by not spending on the center channel can then be used for even better mains. And you know what, I find that center channels are normally over-priced for the quality received in comparison to their matching towers. They charge more because they can, because heck, its the "matching center".
Again, I find this a really broad brush opinion. Like I said above, my center channel contains the identical drivers as my towers and is built as solid as my towers.


Greg,I think its possible (especially for sweet spot viewers who have very nice towers) to get superior audio, if the alternative was shoving a dinky mtm center into a reflective AV cabinet.
Your also assuming that you have the correct room layout to ideally place your towers so that a number of viewers can sit within the sweetspot. But more often than not, this is just not possible and the sweet spot disappears rather quickly when sitting closer to one of the towers. Thats where a good center channel helps again to anchor the sound back to the screen.

I have my center channel which measures a 24" across and is 11" deep protruding out from the audio unit just so I can diminish as much as possible, possible reflections from the audio unit.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
ummm...yes I like Paradigms...that's why I have them...
Uh, no Greg. You have the Paradigms because your wife forced you to buy them because she is an audioholic & thought they sounded great.:D

You really wanted the Def Techs SuperTowers, but your wife said they looked ugly.:)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Hi all. My brother is trying to put together a system but is in a quandry. These are my impressions. He wants real good stuff but won't spend the money even though he has it. In other words he's cheap. He also is never home, when he is he has no time to himself as his wife and kids eat it up. He wants to get Arcam for the amp and DVD player, for the speakers he is thinking about Paradigm Studio 40's or Vandy 2c's. I think he should get an affordable rig that represents good value as I personally don't think he will be able to enjoy it as much as he thinks he will or wants to. I believe at this time his interests are leaned more towards movies than music. Any advice will be appreciated and I will pass it on to him. Thanks.
I think your brother has already made up his mine.
But here is what I recommend for a cheap speaker buy: Definitive Technology BP7006 for $425 each ($850 for two) at DigitalCraze.com or Ultimate Electronics (if you have one near you). This is a full range speaker (29-20,000 Hz +/- 3dB) with a built-in 300-watts RMS 8-inch subwoofer so your brother won't need a separate subwoofer, unless he demands the lowest, loudest possible bass from SVS, HSU, Outlaw Audio, or the upcoming Emotiva.

For a CD/DVD player, I recommend the $230 HDDVD A2 player from Toshiba (Amazon.com). It can play CD, DVD, & HDDVD.

For an amplifier, he can get an Acurus A250 (250-watts per ch stereo amp) for $400 on eBay. Or any other amp will do.

So there, a total of $1,480 for a fantastic 2-channel/HDDVD system.
 
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