Help Me set-up Bi-amp for Yammy RX-V659

[zumbo]

Let's even say that the receiver in question can really only ever supply 50 clean WPC, but it can supply it to all channels (even though it's spec'd to 100 WPC in an effort to boost its specs). So we re-rate it to 50 WPC. Now with a "normal" setup, you can get 50 to each speaker. With the same receiver in a bi-amp setup you can get 100 W (in general) to each speaker.

This is what I was hoping you would say, because it seems to be what you think. This can't happen. I wish it could, and some interpretations of the articles listed could lead someone to believe this. But, it can't happen. I do truly wish it could. This would be the hottest topic on these forums, if it were true.

The only way I know how to get more power out of equipment is to use 4ohm speakers. I do. It is at a cost though. Nothings free, as someone on here has told me before. There is no free extra power hiding in our equipment.

 

[PENG]

There is no free extra power hiding in our equipment.

Agree, and I bet Otto actually agrees there isn't much to gain by bi-amping a RX-V659 even if it can be done. On the other hand, he is right about the definition of bi-amp, whether you care or not.

 

[zumbo]

Agree, and I bet Otto actually agrees there isn't much to gain by bi-amping a RX-V659 even if it can be done. On the other hand, he is right about the definition of bi-amp, whether you care or not.

A lot of words have more than one definition, or interpretations. I go along with bi-amp meaning more than one amp. Looks self-explanatory. If more power is needed, then get more power.

 

[PENG]

A lot of words have more than one definition, or interpretations. I go along with bi-amp meaning more than one amp. Looks self-explanatory. If more power is needed, then get more power.

Again, you are right if you mean people typically use two separate amplifiers (mono, 2-channel, or multi-channel) to biamp. Otto is only technically correct, though some people on this forum did report using their unused receiver (3805/6 if I remember right) channels to biamp their R/L speakers. I am not sure if they did it for fun, or they actually perceive a gain that is theorectically possible though not significant.

 

[wire]

Fair enough. However, your ignorance of these definitions have really fueled a lot of this needless debate. Please don't take the word "ignorance" wrong -- you are simply "ignoring" the base starting point, and it's causing confusion.



Well, I guess you can feel that way, but it doesn't lend any credence to your arguments or your discussion to say "I don't care about definitions." We need to have a common starting point, and by ignoring the definitions, I would submit that we can't even really get started...



I would imagine that some can if they are properly designed and measured. You're getting hung up on crappy receivers with overstated power specs. There's nothing to prevent Krell or Sunfire or whoever from taking a top-of-the-line amp and cramming receiver technology in the same box. It would be exactly the same amplifier section, but still be considered a "receiver". And such a receiver would be capable of a bi-amp configuration. Just like the Yamaha being discussed.

Let's even say that the receiver in question can really only ever supply 50 clean WPC, but it can supply it to all channels (even though it's spec'd to 100 WPC in an effort to boost its specs). So we re-rate it to 50 WPC. Now with a "normal" setup, you can get 50 to each speaker. With the same receiver in a bi-amp setup you can get 100 W (in general) to each speaker. Doesn't matter if it's a great design or not. There is a power difference. If you read both my link and yours, you will also see that there are other potential benefits to bi-amping that aren't necessarily related to power (and I'm not arguing for or against them, but they are different from bi-wiring).

Hi Otto
Are you Bi-Amping a Yammy reciever ( not a good enough power supply ) ? If so it is to crappy to Bi amp , If you where to try a Sunfire or anything in that class ,then yes you probably could .
When it comes to bi amping , it still comes down to the basics , how does the unit recieve its power and how good is the power supply to produce the power ?
I guess all i have constuctive to say , Is don't use a Yammy to Bi Amp .

 

[OttoMatic]

Hi Otto
Are you Bi-Amping a Yammy reciever ( not a good enough power supply ) ?

No, not at all.

If so it is to crappy to Bi amp

Agreed. It's become more academic, as zumbo can't seem to grasp active bi-amping vs. passive bi-amping vs. bi-wiring. Of course, he will now say he does, but you can go read the thread from the top and see what's transpired since the weekend. I've been pretty dang consistent, except for one typo.

If you where to try a Sunfire or anything in that class ,then yes you probably could.

The gist of my system goes something like this:

Digital or Analog->Cary Cinema 11->Sunfire Cinema Grand->Vandersteen 3A Signature.

The Vandersteens are definitely bi-amped using four channels of the Sunfire. The fifth channel feeds the center, and the surrounds are handled by an Audio Alchemy OM-150.

When it comes to bi amping , it still comes down to the basics , how does the unit recieve its power and how good is the power supply to produce the power ?

That's exactly right. It seems that there's some confusion that there could be five totally separate amps in one box, fed from one power supply (if anyone thinks that there's no confusion on this, I encourage them to read the thread from the top; I just did, and it's quite amusing). It's all about having a well-designed power supply, that has enough power (usually, it's more about the current) to supply to the amplifier circuitS that are fed from that power supply. I think you will agree that a well-designed amp housed with a preamp and a tuner is called a "receiver" and that the amplifier section can be as good or bad as engineered.

 

[OttoMatic]

This is what I was hoping you would say

So you want to discuss power supply and amplifier design? Well you've really cornered me now.

The bottom line is this -- you've repeatedly shown that you are ignorant of the facts. You have demonstrated that you have no desire to learn or concede. You have refused to read links. You refuse to acknowledge well-accepted descriptions of bi-amping and bi-wiring. You can't seem to discern between amplifiers and power supplies; why would I debate with you their design? For anyone who knows what they're talking about, it will be more than obvious that this is case.

I don't mean to be a jerk -- really! You seem like an interested individual, and one that knows some stuff about HT and/or audio. Go out and read. Post in the forums, ask questions, ask "why." Talk about new or crazy ideas, but don't get so sore when someone says "bad idea."

But I'll tell you right now that you're playing it up as a real know-it-all, and I'll tell you right here that you don't, in fact, know it all.

I hope you're a nice, smart guy behind the screen, but at this point you seem like either a troll or a bonehead. Good luck.

 

[junchoon]

hi guys, don't get too hung up with the definition, just enjoy the music/HT!

however, to get back to topic, the OP is asking for bi-amping his RX-V659, and here i assume he is asking to do it with one amp. i also assume he accepts the use of either one amp or multiple amps, as long as it increase the Watts into the main speakers, he will see it as bi-amp. if it is, he and i have the same view. with a RX-V2700 u do not need to use the multi-ch inputs on the RX-V2700 to enjoy increased watts to the mains. i may be wrong as i have not gone in-depth with RX-V2700.

my current RX-V659 setup is bi-wire, can definitely hear a difference. it sounds about 10% louder, while the bass is more defined and less boomy. the high and mid is sweeter. depends on the source, this will overwhelms the C/SL/SB channels. most evident when playing Diana Krall's "Love Scenes" in SACD - the 2ch is miles ahead better than the multi-channels! well, maybe the recording was done poorly, but should not be miles ahead. normal DD and DTS 5.1 soundtracks are less affected.

on the other hand, if the OP 100r1, having read zumbo's posts and links, has changed his mind about what bi-amp is, then it is another story.

cheers,
wps

p.s.: is there a way to edit my 1st post? wanted to include a step to remove the connecting plate on the speaker before it being bi-wired/bi-amped.

 

[OttoMatic]

p.s.: is there a way to edit my 1st post? wanted to include a step to remove the connecting plate on the speaker before it being bi-wired/bi-amped.

Hi,

I think they have set a time limit after which you can no longer edit a post. I have edited posts that were somewhat recent (several minutes), but I came back to edit one after a few hours, and did not have the option. I know this is an option in vBulletin, so I think that's the way they've set it up.

 

[zumbo]

So you want to discuss power supply and amplifier design? Well you've really cornered me now.

The bottom line is this -- you've repeatedly shown that you are ignorant of the facts. You have demonstrated that you have no desire to learn or concede. You have refused to read links. You refuse to acknowledge well-accepted descriptions of bi-amping and bi-wiring. You can't seem to discern between amplifiers and power supplies; why would I debate with you their design? For anyone who knows what they're talking about, it will be more than obvious that this is case.

This thread is about bi-amping a 659. You keep trying to turn it into being about how your system is connected. Read the whole thing again. This is twice you have called me ignorant. My whole point to the OP was, if he wanted more power, it was going to have to be added. It has been proven that you think a receiver can double it's power with your idea. It can't be.

Let's even say that the receiver in question can really only ever supply 50 clean WPC, but it can supply it to all channels (even though it's spec'd to 100 WPC in an effort to boost its specs). So we re-rate it to 50 WPC. Now with a "normal" setup, you can get 50 to each speaker. With the same receiver in a bi-amp setup you can get 100 W (in general) to each speaker. Doesn't matter if it's a great design or not. There is a power difference. If you read both my link and yours, you will also see that there are other potential benefits to bi-amping that aren't necessarily related to power (and I'm not arguing for or against them, but they are different from bi-wiring).

I don't mean to be a jerk -- really! You seem like an interested individual, and one that knows some stuff about HT and/or audio. Go out and read. Post in the forums, ask questions, ask "why." Talk about new or crazy ideas, but don't get so sore when someone says "bad idea."

I am not the one name calling. I think you got sore when you finally figured-out this thread was about bi-amping a 659. Or, did you figure that out yet?

But I'll tell you right now that you're playing it up as a real know-it-all, and I'll tell you right here that you don't, in fact, know it all.

I know this: Trying to bi-amp a 659 is a waste of time. That is what this thread is about, in case you didn't know. And, another rude comment.

I hope you're a nice, smart guy behind the screen, but at this point you seem like either a troll or a bonehead. Good luck.

More name calling. How old are you? 12? There is no need to be rude.

The bottom line is this. You thought a receiver(659) could double it's power being bi-amped using it's own power. I said an amp would have to be added. It's as simple as that. Then you link technical information that never states it will make a difference on a entry/mid-fi level receiver.(what this thread was about) This backed-up your system, which I never was talking about. I tried to keep the focus towards the OP.

 

[OttoMatic]

OK. Good luck.

 

[junchoon]

ouch! the heat is up, phew!!!

let me get this straight: for extra power for the mains from a multi-ch amp, one MUST get another amp?

okay, assuming i have up to two rx-v659 amps, and i have only two main speakers, with options to go all the way to tri-amp/tri-wire, not just bi-amp. example will be ProAc's Response 3.8.

scenario 1, one RX-V659 amp: connect the amp's L, SL and SBL to the low, mid and high respectively, on the Left speaker. then connect the amp's R, SR and SBR to the low, mid and high, respectively on the Right speaker. (i will call this passive tri-amp, while zumbo will say this is tri-wiring).

scenario 2, two RX-V659 amps: connect amp1's L to low, and amp2's L to mid+high of the Left speaker. then connect amp1's R to the low, and amp2's R to the mid+high on the Right speaker. a normal bi-amp.

from the CD/DVD player, the signal has been taken care of through a multi-splitter, to split the single signal into two or three.

i believe the watts in scenario 1 will be equal, if not more then scenario 2, to the mains. please correct me if i am wrong. thanks.

peace,
wps

 

[OttoMatic]

let me get this straight: for extra power for the mains, one MUST get another amp?

Not really. One must use another amplifier channel that has available to it enough power from its power supply. It doesn't matter if that amp channel is in a separate box, or the same box, or if it's a "receiver" or a stand-alone amp. The important thing is that the power supply not run out of power (generally, current) while operating all amplifier channels to whatever their limits may be (each of the seven amplifiers is its own circuit, independent from the others, but drawing from the same power supply). I'm not terribly familiar with the 659 receiver, so it may not be designed in a terribly robust fashion, so it may fall prey to a power supply that's going to limit "all-channels-driven" power outputs, depending on how things were measured and rated by Yamaha (Yamaha probably did not spec an "all-channels-driven" number, but I could be wrong).

i believe the watts in scenario 1 will be equal, if not more then scenario 2, to the mains. please correct me if i am wrong. thanks.

In general, that's right -- if the power supply can keep up with the individual amplifier power requirements.

PS -- Junchoon, I think if you get your registration confirmed, you can then receive PMs.

 

[junchoon]

oops... just activated... thanks for the head-up.

wps

 

[PENG]

ouch! the heat is up, phew!!!

let me get this straight: for extra power for the mains from a multi-ch amp, one MUST get another amp?

okay, assuming i have up to two rx-v659 amps, and i have only two main speakers, with options to go all the way to tri-amp/tri-wire, not just bi-amp. example will be ProAc's Response 3.8.

scenario 1, one RX-V659 amp: connect the amp's L, SL and SBL to the low, mid and high respectively, on the Left speaker. then connect the amp's R, SR and SBR to the low, mid and high, respectively on the Right speaker. (i will call this passive tri-amp, while zumbo will say this is tri-wiring).

scenario 2, two RX-V659 amps: connect amp1's L to low, and amp2's L to mid+high of the Left speaker. then connect amp1's R to the low, and amp2's R to the mid+high on the Right speaker. a normal bi-amp.

from the CD/DVD player, the signal has been taken care of through a multi-splitter, to split the single signal into two or three.

i believe the watts in scenario 1 will be equal, if not more then scenario 2, to the mains. please correct me if i am wrong. thanks.

peace,
wps

Depend on the VA rating of the 659's PS you may be right. Technically speaking, scenario one is likely, (not for sure without knowing the detailed spec) and mainly power supply limited while scenario 2 is amplifier limited as you are utilizing only 2 of the 7 vs scenario 1's 6 of the 7 inboard amplifiers, but there are 2 PS feeding the amplifiers.

 

[OttoMatic]

Depend on the VA rating of the 659's PS you may be right. Technically speaking, scenario one is likely, (not for sure without knowing the detailed spec) and mainly power supply limited while scenario 2 is amplifier limited as you are utilizing only 2 of the 7 vs scenario 1's 6 of the 7 inboard amplifiers, but there are 2 PS feeding the amplifiers.

For whatever it's worth, I agree with that.

 

[junchoon]

Depend on the VA rating of the 659's PS you may be right. Technically speaking, scenario one is likely, (not for sure without knowing the detailed spec) and mainly power supply limited while scenario 2 is amplifier limited as you are utilizing only 2 of the 7 vs scenario 1's 6 of the 7 inboard amplifiers, but there are 2 PS feeding the amplifiers.

hi there... i am just giving a theory, i don't have two amps to test 'em, nor a pair of ProAc Response 3.8 (i wish). no proof that scenario 1 will provide more watts or less, just theory, althought i think it will be close to scenario 2. however, scenario 1 sure gives better bang for buck per watt.

enjoy the music and stay cool! later...

cheers,
wps

 

[wire]

Digital or Analog->Cary Cinema 11->Sunfire Cinema Grand->Vandersteen 3A Signature.

The Vandersteens are definitely bi-amped using four channels of the Sunfire. The fifth channel feeds the center, and the surrounds are handled by an Audio Alchemy OM-150.

Now
that all this is over with , I think you 2 where close to saying the same thing .
Nice system , One day ill splurge and get a five channel Sunfire .

 

[OttoMatic]

Now that all this is over with , I think you 2 where close to saying the same thing .

Me and who else? I'll agree that bi-amping with an RX-V659 isn't a really great idea!

Nice system

Thanks, man. You've got some nice stuff yourself!

 

[junchoon]

Now
that all this is over with , I think you 2 where close to saying the same thing .
Nice system , One day ill splurge and get a five channel Sunfire .

hi wire,

not trying to put words into the OP's or OttoMatic's mouth, but i believe we share the same, if not similiar view, from the beginning. Zumbo is of different view. basically i feel a multi-ch amp can be used for bi-amp, albeit passively. while Zumbo's implying that ONLY two (or more) amps can be considered (active) bi-amp-ing. is not like Zumbo and i are choking each other over this matter, just differing views, no biggie (i hope so!).

passive or active, Yammy RX-V659 is an entry-to-mid level AV amp, not a Sunfire. passively bi-amp-ing might introduce heating issue (since we are forcing the amp to drive minimum 4 channels all the time), may not have the headroom (reserve power) of an active bi-amp system, internal electronic interferences, etc.

enjoy the music!

cheers,
wps