Klipsch....buy or avoid?

[WmAx]

Yes, but many complained about the cabinet's lacking bracing and unusually thin cabinet. Of course Velodyne responded that due to the design it was just part of the design parameters.

I am not picking at you, I just don't think it is very justified to say a speaker isn't good because the enclosure doesn't appear to be very good to you, even though it may have a very specific purpose. I never noticed any colorations from the cabinet when i listened to the RF-7 speakers, and I would expect the same from the RF-63.

I would not expect most people to be able to identify the cabinet coloration(s) as cabinet coloration(s), as that is all that they have heard for the most part. But make no mistake, such problem(s) cause substantial distortion of timbre that is causing the speaker to have coloration(s). Typically, only the highest quality speaker systems address cabinet coloration with a significant solution, because most often, this is an expensive problem to correct.

As for the DD-18 cabinet. It is a subwoofer. The subwoofer does not operate into the resonant frequency band of the cabinet's panels. There for it is a non issue. With a midbass speaker, it is a very substantial issue, as the panel resonances reside in the passband of the speaker's operational range.

I have measured, experimented, designed, modified and constructed systems to battle these resonances, as well as used double blinded testing (recording speaker in state A, B and playing back recording on very high quality monitor devices with little to no resonances and judging/verifying artifacts with ABX software) to verify my suspicion(s). As a result, my sensitivity to resonance detection has been increased. This helps me in preliminary analysis in identifying sound quality issues. As such, I have a high degree of confidence that the Klipsch flagship Reference floorstander has substantial cabinet induced timbre coloration(s), based on my listening experience(which was performed in a very ideal acoustic space for these speakers).

-Chris

 

[UFObuster]

I would not expect most people to be able to identify the cabinet coloration(s) as cabinet coloration(s), as that is all that they have heard for the most part. But make no mistake, such problem(s) cause substantial distortion of timbre that is causing the speaker to have coloration(s). Typically, only the highest quality speaker systems address cabinet coloration with a significant solution, because most often, this is an expensive problem to correct.

As for the DD-18 cabinet. It is a subwoofer. The subwoofer does not operate into the resonant frequency band of the cabinet's panels. There for it is a non issue. With a midbass speaker, it is a very substantial issue, as the panel resonances reside in the passband of the speaker's operational range.

I have measured, experimented, designed, modified and constructed systems to battle these resonances, as well as used double blinded testing (recording speaker in state A, B and playing back recording on very high quality monitor devices with little to no resonances and judging/verifying artifacts with ABX software) to verify my suspicion(s). As a result, my sensitivity to resonance detection has been increased. This helps me in preliminary analysis in identifying sound quality issues. As such, I have a high degree of confidence that the Klipsch flagship Reference floorstander has substantial cabinet induced timbre coloration(s), based on my listening experience(which was performed in a very ideal acoustic space for these speakers).

-Chris

For this response is why I think I started this thread...there seem to be people who really have an ax to grind about Klipsch branded products. These all inclusive statements really don't stand up well applied to the tremendously broad product line of this company.
I don't know you Chris, but apparently you have a craft in cabinet building but you must also know that your opinions about tone coloration must in the end be subjective. Coloration can't be measured and quantified. It is still your ear judging the outcome of comparisons. ALL speakers introduce coloration to some extent and it doesn't surprise me that you think Klipsch do. I may be able to admire your craftmanship if I could see it but I won't ever know if you have an ear good enough to tell the difference between an English Horn and a French Horn, now would I?
In response to the "crap" reference (maybe a previous post)....I guess I'll subjectively rely on many "high-end" users' opinions that are demonstrated by their selecting Klipsch products for their MacIntosh, Conrad-Johnson, Classe, Juicy-Music, Jolida, etc components. Must be a reason for it...and I don't suppose that all are so shallow in their appreciation of fine audio not to have noticed what you did.

PS...now I really liked that Batman & Robin picture set....again, a way over-the-top generalization....but it illustrates the old addage that the quality of your effort is often illustrated best by the intensity of your critics. Someone should email that one to Klipsch!

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I don't have any axe to grind about Klipsch. I merely think their sound quality sucks. To me, they are harsh and grating like a dental drill.

 

[WmAx]

These all inclusive statements really don't stand up well applied to the tremendously broad product line of this company.

All of their floorstanders that I experienced appeared to have the same cabinet induced colorations, though it seemed worse with the lowest priced point line.

you must also know that your opinions about tone coloration must in the end be subjective. Coloration can't be measured and quantified. It is still your ear judging the outcome of comparisons.

Resonances can be measured and compared to perceptual research to determine the severity of [1]audibility, based on relative level of the resonance amplitude vs. main signal level vs. the bandwidth(Q) of the resonance. Now, my analysis of Klipsche was completely subjective, due to the circumstances. I did outline why I have a high degree of confidence in my particular observation in the prior post.

ALL speakers introduce coloration to some extent and it doesn't surprise me that you think Klipsch do.

Yes, all speakers introduce some sort of coloration to some extent. But some do so at such low levels, that it is irrelevant, and barely audible, if at all. Some speakers have cabinets that produce almost no measurable cabinet vibration(s), and can be safely said to not have any cabinet panel radiation coloration(s).

..I guess I'll subjectively rely on many "high-end" users' opinions that are demonstrated by their selecting Klipsch products for their MacIntosh, Conrad-Johnson, Classe, Juicy-Music, Jolida, etc components. Must be a reason for it...and I don't suppose that all are so shallow in their appreciation of fine audio not to have noticed what you did.

Most people have never experienced very high sound quality sound reproduction system(s), even if they have visited several 'high-end' boutiques and purchased hardware from such places. Because of this, I don't know what relevance it is that a so-called 'high-end' use may pick a Klipsch to go with their 'high-end' amplifier and/or other components.

-Chris

Footnotes
[1] "The Modification of Timbre by Resonances: Perception and Measurement", Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, JAES, Vol. 36, No. 3, 1988, March, pages 122-141

 

[UFObuster]

All of their floorstanders that I experienced appeared to have the same cabinet induced colorations, though it seemed worse with the lowest priced point line.



Resonances can be measured and compared to perceptual research to determine the severity of [1]audibility, based on relative level of the resonance amplitude vs. main signal level vs. the bandwidth(Q) of the resonance. Now, my analysis of Klipsche was completely subjective, due to the circumstances. I did outline why I have a high degree of confidence in my particular observation in the prior post.



Yes, all speakers introduce some sort of coloration to some extent. But some do so at such low levels, that it is irrelevant, and barely audible, if at all. Some speakers have cabinets that produce almost no measurable cabinet vibration(s), and can be safely said to not have any cabinet panel radiation coloration(s).



Most people have never experienced very high sound quality sound reproduction system(s), even if they have visited several 'high-end' boutiques and purchased hardware from such places. Because of this, I don't know what relevance it is that a so-called 'high-end' use may pick a Klipsch to go with their 'high-end' amplifier and/or other components.

-Chris

Footnotes
[1] "The Modification of Timbre by Resonances: Perception and Measurement", Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, JAES, Vol. 36, No. 3, 1988, March, pages 122-141

Interesting...don't really have enough interest or time to answer point by point...but I think most readers will get the point of my original post....you've got it bad, Chris....a real ax-grinding on Klipsch....maybe you might actually back this up with some recent studies or numbers..which models...compared to what...when...etc.......1988 is just too far back for me to take seriously since my speakers did not go into production until around 2000.

...and the "perceptual studies" really get me....ie, read "subjective"...

I will take one point to issue...the "high-end" users that I referred to were not visitors to boutiques...they are OWNERS of the named components in my previous post who selected various Klipsch models as speakers....(check the profiles on the Klipsch forum). And who, I presume, are not ear-calloused...nor brain-dead....and have the sensitivity to judge these matters for themselves.
...And ultimately chose a high quality speaker that they as I preferred....a Klipsch product....as I assume others may choose any other quality brand.
..don't you get it?....Klipsch is not the "evil empire"....a lot of people who really know what they are doing LIKE them......get over it.
Hey Seth...stop me....these arguments are useless!!

 

[Adam]

Can't we all just get along?

For me, music should be about enjoyment. So, who cares if the sound is "colored"? If it's what you like, then it's right. Klipsch, Polk, Bose (don't hunt me down)...if someone likes it, then good for them.

 

[UFObuster]

Can't we all just get along?

For me, music should be about enjoyment. So, who cares if the sound is "colored"? If it's what you like, then it's right. Klipsch, Polk, Bose (don't hunt me down)...if someone likes it, then good for them.

...This was the point of my original post...I, like you, think that the field of audio enjoyment is wide...as the Duke said..."if it sounds good, it is good"...
...then we get into the "audiophile" arguments of who has the bigger, better, etc.....stuff. There is a legitimate area of accurate sound reproduction...but since there is little or no consensus for "objective" measurement of this area...we might as well enjoy what we like...but I'm always listening...to try to get the most from my $$ invested in my system.
....I always use my own experience for example: I get serious "ear fatigue" or "treble darts in my ears" hearing my 14 yr old practicing his trumpet...but then....the damn thing still sounds like a REAL trumpet. Sometimes...the REAL thing is not pretty.

 

[billy p]

Can't we all just get along?

For me, music should be about enjoyment. So, who cares if the sound is "colored"? If it's what you like, then it's right. Klipsch, Polk, Bose (don't hunt me down)...if someone likes it, then good for them.

I agree!!! However, if you ask the question as UFO did? Then expect some constructive criticism. JMO

 

[Joe Schmoe]

....I always use my own experience for example: I get serious "ear fatigue" or "treble darts in my ears" hearing my 14 yr old practicing his trumpet...but then....the damn thing still sounds like a REAL trumpet. Sometimes...the REAL thing is not pretty.

That is how Klipsch speakers effect me with most types of music.

 

[WmAx]

..you've got it bad, Chris....a real ax-grinding on Klipsch...

I shared my opinion, which is based on previous explanations I have provided in this thread. In fact, I respect Harman (Klipsch is just a brand/division of Harman) highly. In fact, they carried out the research I referenced earlier. The main author, Floyd Toole, was until recently, the head of audio perceptual research at Harman.

I guess one issue here may be the actual value of my opinions on speaker systems. Feel free to research my posting history by months or years on this site, and decide for yourself.

.maybe you might actually back this up with some recent studies or numbers..which models...compared to what...when...etc.......1988 is just too far back for me to take seriously since my speakers did not go into production until around 2000.

The study in question has nothing to do with specific speakers. It is a perceptual study performed in controlled conditions to determine actual audibility thresholds of resonances, and how to compare these with measured data. It shows that one can measure and determine if specific resonances can be expected to be audible.

...and the "perceptual studies" really get me....ie, read "subjective"...

Perceptual research: research of how and what you perceive. The studies that I refer to are of the highest credibility, and peer reviewed in the JAES.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

So, who cares if the sound is "colored"? If it's what you like, then it's right. Klipsch, Polk, Bose (don't hunt me down)...if someone likes it, then good for them.

Exactly.

-Chris

 

[Romulus]

This thread, like some posters have just pointed out, is a good example of why audio is a good hobby to be involved with. At one level, it is just like any other hobby.. once you get involved in it, there is absolutely no limit to how much you can spend. However, the difference comes in when you look at how objective it is and how scientific it is. For the most part, objectivity outweights how a machine says the speakers or audio equipment sound. Therefore, for those lucky few of us (me included ) who can't tell a big difference between a $400 pair of bookshelves and a $2000 pair of floorstanders, we can get away with as much enjoyment as anyone and not break the bank doing so.

 

[corey]

In fact, I respect Harman (Klipsch is just a brand/division of Harman) highly.

Somewhat off topic, but the Harmon International site does not list Klipsch as one of their companies.

 

[pzaur]

I'm gonna have to agree with Corey on this. The Klipsch "About Klipsch" section has this in their corporate overview:

"Worldwide Distribution
The Klipsch Group parent company oversees the business operations for the Klipsch Audio Technologies, Jamo International and Audio Products International speaker companies as well as the brands' distribution management companies. The Klipsch Group is focused on leveraging its highly acclaimed speaker brands to offer a unique and powerful single supply source for its retailers, distributors and contractors globally."

No mention on Harman. But there is mention of Jamo and Audio Products International.

-pat

 

[WmAx]

Somewhat off topic, but the Harmon International site does not list Klipsch as one of their companies.

You are correct. I was [erroneously] under the impression that Klipsch was part of Harman.

-Chris

 

[Seth=L]

Klipsch owns, Mirage, Energy, Athena, Spherex (not familiar with them), and Jamo (and its subsidiaries).

Harman owns, JBL, Infinity, and Revel speaker companies.

I think API was a recent acquisition by Klipsch.

 

[UFObuster]

I agree!!! However, if you ask the question as UFO did? Then expect some constructive criticism. JMO

Actually, I was not asking a question...I was merely pointing out that some "audiophiles" are on a crusade to annihilate a particular brand that they themselves regard as bad based on their own subjective criteria....I don't know why it happens. I was also pointing out as others have posted here that enjoyment of sound is so subjective that defining even an entry level quality is hard. Pretending that you can decide how good a speaker sounds by producing a set of documents is ridiculous in the extreme. I'm happy to have produced this thread to smoke out these perceptions...that a whole company's production over a 48 year period can be characterized by some posters with one word as "crap" really deserves the attention that I can give it......and that you readers can deduce for yourselves whatever underlies this motivation....for myself, I cannot.

 

[WmAx]

AI was also pointing out as others have posted here that enjoyment of sound is so subjective that defining even an entry level quality is hard. Pretending that you can decide how good a speaker sounds by producing a set of documents is ridiculous in the extreme.

This is the thinking that persisted for years in the field, that is until about 20+ years ago, when careful scientific experimentation demonstrated that one could determine expected loudspeaker sound quality with measurements. In fact, one can determine, with strong confidence, the measured parameters that define sound quality. This has been demonstrated in credible, peer- reviewed research, especially at the NRC and Harman labs, under blinded listening conditions, and with a large number of subjects. The overwhelming majority of people always pick the same 'sound', when a proper bias-free comparison is conducted. The only time this is not to be expected, is when subjects have hearing damage.[1] Preference of room acoustics is very much the same predictability. [2]

Note: The set of measurements required to predict likely sound quality requires far more than the typical magazine reviews provide, and in addition, people would not be able to interpret the measurements even if they had them, without a large degree of research focused simply on how to do so properly.

-Chris

Footnotes
[1] Loudspeaker Measurements and Their Relationship to Listener Preferences: Part 2
Floyd E. Toole
JAES, May, 1986, Vol. 34, pages 227-235

[2]Loudspeakers and Rooms for Sound Reproduction—A Scientific Review
Floyd E. Toole
JAES, June, 2006, Vol. 54, pages 451-476

 

[Joe Schmoe]

While I have heard and liked Canadian speakers based on those NRC results, I find that I prefer others that are not, particularly British designs. My conclusion is that those preferences, though widespread, are not universal.

 

[tbewick]

Pretending that you can decide how good a speaker sounds by producing a set of documents is ridiculous in the extreme.

Check out -

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_28_r.pdf

and on the usefulness of listening tests -

http://www.aes.org/technical/documentDownloads.cfm?docID=168