Vintage amps (70s)

[ifsixwasnin9]

Do vintage amps from 1970s sound different than one another? Are there any that are outstanding? Was Marantz considered superior? Lots of 1970s amps had a lower power rating than later amps. Could a vintage amp at 35wpc push speakers just as well as a more recent 100wpc amp?

 

[lovinthehd]

Depends on the particular amp, not just the date range. I had a Marantz 2270 back in the early 80s....wasn't very impressed especially due crossfeed issues. Wasn't particularly powerful either. Watts are watts so no a 35wpc amp and 100wpc amp (at only 8 ohm) of relatively equal spec other than wattage, the higher power amp will have a 4.6 dB advantage....which really isn't a lot in the big picture otoh. Some amps could sound different if they had a different frequency/distortion spec but even then might not be all that noticeable. Where do you get your information from?

 

[TLS Guy]

Do vintage amps from 1970s sound different than one another? Are there any that are outstanding? Was Marantz considered superior? Lots of 1970s amps had a lower power rating than later amps. Could a vintage amp at 35wpc push speakers just as well as a more recent 100wpc amp?

The answer to that is NO! The reason is that high powered and high current amps had not been developed. in 1970 They were also on the whole much less reliable than modern output devices. High powered devices stated to appear around the mid seventies. An early so called "super amp" was the Crown DC 300, but failure of any output transistor sent your speakers up in smoke, literally. So speaker protection had to be developed.

The first solid state amp to be reliable and have sound as good as tube amps was the Quad 303 introduced in 1967. Power output 40 watts per channel. 94,000 were produced from 1967 to 1989.

Quad 303 and matching Quad 33 pre amp.

I have a couple of those and some 33s in my storage room. They are unconditionally stable under all loads, and don't blow up or go into protection if you carelessly short the speaker leads.

If you want a vintage amp, those are the ONLY ones in contention looking for and purchasing.

 

[ifsixwasnin9]

I just read good things about some vintage amps. I owned a Sansui 515 I think and sound nice. Some amps like Marantz are described as "warm". What does that mean?

 

[mono-bloc]

If you want a vintage amp, those are the ONLY ones in contention looking for and purchasing.

In your opinion, I just did a bit of research into Quad. There is only one retailer in OZ, according to information. And they list the full modal list.
If they carry all the models, is anyone guess. https://soundreference.com.au/brands/QUAD.html

It would seem your 303 // 33 models are in current production ??

Cyrus are another brand similar to Quad with there early models Cyrus 1 and later on the Cyrus 2, which run together with a seperate power supply.
which rases the output from 50 wpc to 75 wpc.. These models are not to be confused with the current Cyrus One newly designed model

I've owned the early models since the since the late 60's, And while there as good as the day they arrived in OZ, remain unused, if favour of there current
Pre / mono-,bloc models which I own
I would be interested in your comments regarding retail pricing of the Quad models, in the US. As pricing here is horoundus for what your getting

 

[highfigh]

The answer to that is NO! The reason is that high powered and high current amps had not been developed. in 1970 They were also on the whole much less reliable than modern output devices. High powered devices stated to appear around the mid seventies. An early so called "super amp" was the Crown DC 300, but failure of any output transistor sent your speakers up in smoke, literally. So speaker protection had to be developed.

The first solid state amp to be reliable and have sound as good as tube amps was the Quad 303 introduced in 1967. Power output 40 watts per channel. 94,000 were produced from 1967 to 1989.

Quad 303 and matching Quad 33 pre amp.

I have a couple of those and some 33s in my storage room. They are unconditionally stable under all loads, and don't blow up or go into protection is you carelessly short the speaker leads.

If you want a vintage amp, those are the ONLY ones in contention looking for and purchasing.

DC-300- Direct Current. Don't forget about the Phase Linear 400.....Failure Mode, achieved!

 

[TLS Guy]

In your opinion, I just did a bit of research into Quad. There is only one retailer in OZ, according to information. And they list the full modal list.
If they carry all the models, is anyone guess. https://soundreference.com.au/brands/QUAD.html

It would seem your 303 // 33 models are in current production ??

Cyrus are another brand similar to Quad with there early models Cyrus 1 and later on the Cyrus 2, which run together with a seperate power supply.
which rases the output from 50 wpc to 75 wpc.. These models are not to be confused with the current Cyrus One newly designed model

I've owned the early models since the since the late 60's, And while there as good as the day they arrived in OZ, remain unused, if favour of there current
Pre / mono-,bloc models which I own
I would be interested in your comments regarding retail pricing of the Quad models, in the US. As pricing here is horoundus for what your getting

It is not the same model at all. It is a design by the new owners and the circuits bare no resemblance at all to Peter Walker's 33 and 303 designs. This is just shameless cashing in on a legend and is a disgrace.

 

[Eppie]

I just read good things about some vintage amps. I owned a Sansui 515 I think and sound nice. Some amps like Marantz are described as "warm". What does that mean?

Something described as warm generally means that it is not bright sounding (does not have pronounced highs) and may have accentuated mid bass.

Describing amps that way makes little sense, really. Most amplifiers have a a very flat frequency response right from 20Hz to 20KHz. The whole purpose of the amp is to increase power without colouring the sound. If an amp has a particular sound characteristic, then it was not designed properly.

Those descriptions make more sense when describing pre-amps and integrated amps as they can feature tone controls which shape the sound. Yamaha Natural Sound integrated amps, for example, had a variable loudness control as opposed to the loudness switch that other amps had. The frequencies the tone controls affect and the roll off of the controls varies by manufacturer so they will sound different, but a straight up amplifier should not colour the sound.

Running amps at peak power and driving them into distortion will affect the sound but it's difficult to describe how people perceive the change.

 

[Mikado463]

If you want a vintage amp, those are the ONLY ones in contention looking for and purchasing.

Our dear 'Doc' limited his response to Solid State, plenty of classics from the vintage era in the tube/valve realm. Granted, speaker matching for drive compatibility is important.

SkyFi Audio (located in NJ) is worth a look.......

SkyFi Audio - Curators of Vintage and New HiFi

Since 2019, SkyFi Audio specializes in the purchase, reconditioning, and reselling of high-end audio equipment. We only buy equipment that we admire and are passionate about. No mid-fi, no gimmicks, no junk. We also represent a small number of carefully selected "best in class" high-end brands.

skyfiaudio.com

 

[TLS Guy]

Our dear 'Doc' limited his response to Solid State, plenty of classics from the vintage era in the tube/valve realm. Granted, speaker matching for drive compatibility is important.

SkyFi Audio (located in NJ) is worth a look.......

SkyFi Audio - Curators of Vintage and New HiFi

Since 2019, SkyFi Audio specializes in the purchase, reconditioning, and reselling of high-end audio equipment. We only buy equipment that we admire and are passionate about. No mid-fi, no gimmicks, no junk. We also represent a small number of carefully selected "best in class" high-end brands.

skyfiaudio.com

Yes absolutely there are, but they are much lower powered and many worked best with higher impedance speakers. If the secondary in the output transformer was tapped, this was no problem, but many were not and were optimized with 15 ohm speakers, which were common in the tube era. The Quad II power amp for instance was 15 watts each.

 

[Mikado463]

Within the solid state field Nelson Pass has always been a leader without question. From his early days founding Threshold (1974) to current PASS Labs and First Watt.

Along with Nelson I have to give kudos to the late great David Hafler as well. A man who truly bridged the tube to solid state transition. While I never owned anything Dynaco by the time the late seventies rolled around and David Hafler Audio had been created I was proud to have a DH-101 preamp and DH-500 amplifier driving my Dahlquist DQ-10's

 

[TLS Guy]

Within the solid state field Nelson Pass has always been a leader without question. From his early days founding Threshold (1974) to current PASS Labs and First Watt.

Along with Nelson I have to give kudos to the late great David Hafler as well. A man who truly bridged the tube to solid state transition. While I never owned anything Dynaco by the time the late seventies rolled around and David Hafler Audio had been created I was proud to have a DH-101 preamp and DH-500 amplifier driving my Dahlquist DQ-10's

True, but the Quad was much more reliable then any of those. I can tell you that by the number of Hafler amps brought for repair. In terms of quality and long lasting Quad was the best of the lot. Install and forget it was the rule with those. That was Peter Walkers number one aim, was to make a transistor amp of higher quality than any tube amp and make it super reliable. The BBC had aversion for their line amps before microwave transmission. They had hundreds of them and attested to their reliability.

 

[ifsixwasnin9]

There's a thread here about a Sansui vintage amp. Guy said he inherited it from family member and he said he couldn't believe how it sounded.
I'm an engineer but know little about electronics. Barely passed EE101.

 

[Mikado463]

There's a thread here about a Sansui vintage amp. Guy said he inherited it from family member and he said he couldn't believe how it sounded.
I'm an engineer but know little about electronics. Barely passed EE101.

are you talking amplifiers or receivers ??

 

[TLS Guy]

are you talking amplifiers or receivers ??

You can bet it is an AM/FM receiver then. I think those were the only offerings from Sansui at that time. But as you know, I have never been a receiver guy. I did buy a used one for one of my teenagers. Most were 20 to 30 watts per channel. The later G series cranked out160 watts per channel. For some reason they had a poor reputation which I think was totally undeserved.

 

[lovinthehd]

The answer to that is NO! The reason is that high powered and high current amps had not been developed. in 1970 They were also on the whole much less reliable than modern output devices. High powered devices stated to appear around the mid seventies. An early so called "super amp" was the Crown DC 300, but failure of any output transistor sent your speakers up in smoke, literally. So speaker protection had to be developed.

The first solid state amp to be reliable and have sound as good as tube amps was the Quad 303 introduced in 1967. Power output 40 watts per channel. 94,000 were produced from 1967 to 1989.

Quad 303 and matching Quad 33 pre amp.

I have a couple of those and some 33s in my storage room. They are unconditionally stable under all loads, and don't blow up or go into protection is you carelessly short the speaker leads.

If you want a vintage amp, those are the ONLY ones in contention looking for and purchasing.

Can you expand on the "as good as tube amps" comment?

 

[mono-bloc]

It is not the same model at all.

Thank you for the explanation regarding models and there corresponding model numbers. It's all very confusing for the new buyer,
As I said before Quad are virtually unknown in OZ, The same as Cyrus are unknown in America.

The same thing has happened with the entry level Cyrus 1 Which carries the same model number as the early and possibly first
Cyrus model produced way back when.

 

[Eppie]

There's a thread here about a Sansui vintage amp. Guy said he inherited it from family member and he said he couldn't believe how it sounded.
I'm an engineer but know little about electronics. Barely passed EE101.

Bear in mind that we are strongly influenced by pre-conceived notions. There is a term called "expectation bias". If you expect a piece of audio equipment to sound better, your mind will convince you that it does indeed sound better, even if measurements show that the two systems perform identically. This often happens with exotic audio cables. Speaker cables costing thousands perform no better than regular stranded copper cable but owners will swear by the improvement because they have convinced themselves that the huge investment was worth it.

There is a lot of nostalgia for some with older audio gear. The higher powered vintage Sansui amps can fetch quite a lot of money. A friend of mine had a nice Sansui amp in the 1980's and I bet that amp would still sound good today but it would not perform any better than a modern amp.

Where you might notice a difference is with head room or dynamic range. Run a 50W amp at full power and that amp is going to clip or the power supply may fail to provide enough current for transients. Run a 150W amp at 50W and that amp will perform cleanly without issues because it has the reserve power to handle any transients. Those two amps could sound the same at lower volumes but the more powerful amp will sound better when the weaker amp is pushed to its limits.

 

[MrBoat]

Do vintage amps from 1970s sound different than one another? Are there any that are outstanding? Was Marantz considered superior? Lots of 1970s amps had a lower power rating than later amps. Could a vintage amp at 35wpc push speakers just as well as a more recent 100wpc amp?

I have several from the mid-late '70s. Pioneer, Sansui, Marantz and a Kenwood. If they were superior, I would use them. To be honest, you could not pay me to use anything with mechanical pots and the only way to correctly recondition them is to take them apart which is often a dicey, one time shot, since most were not meant to ever come apart. At least without modifying the housings to be put back together, and hoping it wasn't flogged to death. In other words, they're not always "just dirty." Often times the traces are worn and essentially on borrowed time, even after getting them clean-er.

A lot of current, nostalgia based audiophiles, seemingly missed out on most of that era and are either fantasy chasing nostalgia, or bought the wrong modern speakers. Many modern speakers are too neutral and revealing for mainstream classic music of that time. As much as modern audiophiles tend to poo-poo over the box-store-grade rack systems and matching speakers of the time, they were designed and voiced smartly, and with sufficient tone controls, for those iffy, main stream recordings, and nothing really works as well for that. Not across the whole spectrum of mainstream music as those systems tend to cover.

Personally, I started getting happier when CD came out, along with digital controls and speakers with rubber surrounds instead of rotting foam and have been succeeding at getting the most from more modern and semi-modern equipment. I like new class D amplification, mixed with more mainstream speakers from the mid-late '90s as a go between that works for a wider range of music from old to new, with not much more than basic tone controls/EQ.

ETA: Here's a 600 watt per channel/8 Ohms class D ICEpower, ICEedge amplifier. I would put this up against anything from the past. I am so far away from clipping and distortion that I don't have to be concerned with it and it runs lukewarm at most.

 

[ifsixwasnin9]

Saw a new NAD amp that's rated at 30wpc. Why would you use this with modern speakers with high wattage? I don't see any modern speakers that are rated as low as 30watts.