The Purge

[Mikado463]

And who paid the tariffs back then? I bet it was a hidden tax on the population as it is ever since. Certainly, it wasn't the country sending the goods.

History of tariffs in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

 

[mtrycrafts]

History of tariffs in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

And who pays?

 

[mtrycrafts]

History of tariffs in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

And now we have both, income taxes and tariffs.

 

[Mikado463]

And now we have both, income taxes and tariffs.

hell, every time I look at a utility bill, phone bill, etc the 'add-ons' just keep coming !

 

[mtrycrafts]

hell, every time I look at a utility bill, phone bill, etc the 'add-ons' just keep coming !

Complain to that bureau (consumer something...) that looks into this kind of stuff.

Oh wait. it was just closed. They don't want businesses looked into.

 

[Mr._Clark]

I should have been more clear about my point. Cutting taxes while trying to wrestle down debt and deficit seem counterproductive. The Laffer Curve is a laugher and shouldn't be depended upon to generate more revenue.

The basic concept predates Laffer by many years:

>>>Nor should the argument seem strange that taxation may be so high as to defeat its object, and that, given sufficient time to gather the fruits, a reduction of taxation will run a better chance, than an increase, of balancing the Budget. For to take the opposite view to-day is to resemble a manufacturer who, running at a loss, decides to raise his price, and when his declining sales increase the loss, wrapping himself in the rectitude of plain arithmetic, decides that prudence requires him to raise the price still more;—and who, when at last his account is balanced with nought on both sides, is still found righteously declaring that it would have been the act of a gambler to reduce the price when you were already making a loss.<<<

The Means to Prosperity, by John Maynard Keynes.

 

[Mr._Clark]

It's good to see that there are some people with principles and spines:

>>>Manhattan’s U.S. attorney on Thursday resigned rather than obey an order from a top Justice Department official to drop the corruption case against New York City’s mayor, Eric Adams.

Then, when Justice Department officials transferred the case to the public integrity section in Washington, which oversees corruption prosecutions, the two men who led that unit also resigned, according to five people with knowledge of the matter.

Several hours later, three other lawyers in the unit also resigned, according to people familiar with the developments. . . .

The agency’s justification for dropping the case was explicitly political; Mr. Bove had argued that the investigation would prevent Mr. Adams from fully cooperating with Mr. Trump’s immigration crackdown. Mr. Bove made a point of saying that Washington officials had not evaluated the strength of the evidence or the legal theory behind the case.

Ms. Sassoon, in a remarkable letter addressed to Attorney General Pam Bondi, said that Mr. Bove’s order to dismiss the case was “inconsistent with my ability and duty to prosecute federal crimes without fear or favor and to advance good-faith arguments before the courts.”<<<

Danielle Sassoon and Other Officials Resign After Order to Drop Eric Adams Case

The interim U.S. attorney in Manhattan and two officials with the federal public integrity unit quit after the Justice Department ordered the charges against Mayor Eric Adams to be dropped.

www.nytimes.com

Trump is extremely soft on crime if he thinks it suits his political needs at any given moment.

His campaign slogan should have been MACA "Make America Corrupt Again."

 

[TankTop5]

The basic concept predates Laffer by many years:

>>>Nor should the argument seem strange that taxation may be so high as to defeat its object, and that, given sufficient time to gather the fruits, a reduction of taxation will run a better chance, than an increase, of balancing the Budget. For to take the opposite view to-day is to resemble a manufacturer who, running at a loss, decides to raise his price, and when his declining sales increase the loss, wrapping himself in the rectitude of plain arithmetic, decides that prudence requires him to raise the price still more;—and who, when at last his account is balanced with nought on both sides, is still found righteously declaring that it would have been the act of a gambler to reduce the price when you were already making a loss.<<<

The Means to Prosperity, by John Maynard Keynes.

The other philosophy on taxation is that if you lower taxes on the dollar the dollar is spent more often and thus the tax revenue increases. Do you want to tax a dollar at 30% or tax it at 10% 30 times.

The velocity of money is what our entire financial system is currently based on. Taxes are one of major factors in increasing or decreasing that velocity.

 

[GO-NAD!]

The basic concept predates Laffer by many years:

>>>Nor should the argument seem strange that taxation may be so high as to defeat its object, and that, given sufficient time to gather the fruits, a reduction of taxation will run a better chance, than an increase, of balancing the Budget. For to take the opposite view to-day is to resemble a manufacturer who, running at a loss, decides to raise his price, and when his declining sales increase the loss, wrapping himself in the rectitude of plain arithmetic, decides that prudence requires him to raise the price still more;—and who, when at last his account is balanced with nought on both sides, is still found righteously declaring that it would have been the act of a gambler to reduce the price when you were already making a loss.<<<

The Means to Prosperity, by John Maynard Keynes.

Certainly, but there are many moving parts to taxation regimes. This single paragraph doesn't exactly validate Laffer's theory.

 

[cpp]

History of tariffs in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

This comes to mind https://www.britannica.com/topic/Smoot-Hawley-Tariff-Act

 

[GO-NAD!]

The other philosophy on taxation is that if you lower taxes on the dollar the dollar is spent more often and thus the tax revenue increases. Do you want to tax a dollar at 30% or tax it at 10% 30 times.

The velocity of money is what our entire financial system is currently based on. Taxes are one of major factors in increasing or decreasing that velocity.

If those untaxed dollars remain in circulation, what you suggest may have some merit. But, what if they don't get recirculated?
What did corporate America do with that tax break? Buy record amounts of its own stock
The Trump Tax Cuts’ Benefits Were Outweighed by Lost Revenue | Chicago Booth Review

Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating high taxes. But, there's a lot of self-serving rhetoric circulating about the benefits of tax cuts to the overall economy.

 

[highfigh]

it's my understanding that 'back in the day' prior to income taxing the Fed Gov't derived the majority of it's revenue from tariffs and the levy of taxation on alcohol and tobacco. Are we heading back

Care to define "back in the day"?

 

[TankTop5]

If those untaxed dollars remain in circulation, what you suggest may have some merit. But, what if they don't get recirculated?
What did corporate America do with that tax break? Buy record amounts of its own stock
The Trump Tax Cuts’ Benefits Were Outweighed by Lost Revenue | Chicago Booth Review

Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating high taxes. But, there's a lot of self-serving rhetoric circulating about the benefits of tax cuts to the overall economy.

Things like buying back stocks isn’t a long term issue as there’s regulations on how much stock a publicly traded company can own. Won’t take long before they have to circulate those savings back into the economy. Money can’t stagnate for long before it looses value to inflation so the problem sorts itself out.

I don’t think it will be long before we have AI modeling that can maximize tax rates. The issue is that taxes are often implemented not to increase revenue but to achieve policy goals for government. We need a shift from the ideology of government serving itself to government serving the people. Obviously there will be a lot of issues that need to be addressed along the way.

 

[Mikado463]

Care to define "back in the day"?

19th to early 20th century

 

[highfigh]

19th to early 20th century

How much tax should the average worker pay in tax? Look at the data at the bottom of the page- it shows

Total Wages "Men- 16 and over- 4,120,716
Wages $2,022,899,275". Average pay $490.89/year.

blob:https://babel.hathitrust.org/cedabdc6-caf6-4f53-a6fe-896ec61ac093

 

[Mr._Clark]

Meanwhile, the purge continues.

>>>WASHINGTON, Feb 14 (Reuters) - The administration of U.S. President Donald Trump has laid off about 1,200 to 2,000 workers at the Department of Energy, including employees at the nuclear security administration and the loans office, two sources familiar with the matter said on Friday. . . .

The two sources said the layoffs come after three people representing billionaire Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency arrived at the agency.
Some 325 workers have been let go from the department's National Nuclear Security Administration, which manages the U.S. nuclear weapons fleet and works to secure radiological materials around the world, one of the sources said.

"It's insane," the sources said, pointing out the losses at the NNSA occur at a time when nuclear power plants have been at risk in Russia's war on Ukraine, including Zaporizhzhia, the largest in Europe.<<< (emphasis added)

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/sweeping-us-energy-department-layoffs-hit-nuclear-security-loans-office-sources-2025-02-14/

This article touches on a few of the issues:

>>>The employees at DOGE are reportedly working seven days a week, on very little sleep. This slumber-party atmosphere isn’t a great fit for the sober and secretive world of nuclear weapons, where security lapses are hugely consequential. I spoke with three former officials and nuclear experts about what might happen if DOGE were to take a too-cavalier approach to the NNSA. None believed that Musk’s auditors would try to steal important information—although it is notable that not everyone at DOGE is a federal employee, many lack the security clearance to access the information they are seeking, and Musk had to be stopped from hiring a noncitizen. Nuclear-security lapses don’t need to be intentional to cause lasting damage. “When access to the NNSA’s sensitive systems is not granted through proper channels, they can be compromised by accident,” the former senior official at the Department of Energy, who requested anonymity to discuss internal matters, told me. “You could stumble across some incredibly sensitive things if you are coming at it sideways.”<<<

If DOGE Goes Nuclear

The risk of messing with the wrong computer system

www.theatlantic.com

 

[highfigh]

Meanwhile, the purge continues.

>>>WASHINGTON, Feb 14 (Reuters) - The administration of U.S. President Donald Trump has laid off about 1,200 to 2,000 workers at the Department of Energy, including employees at the nuclear security administration and the loans office, two sources familiar with the matter said on Friday. . . .

The two sources said the layoffs come after three people representing billionaire Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency arrived at the agency.
Some 325 workers have been let go from the department's National Nuclear Security Administration, which manages the U.S. nuclear weapons fleet and works to secure radiological materials around the world, one of the sources said.

"It's insane," the sources said, pointing out the losses at the NNSA occur at a time when nuclear power plants have been at risk in Russia's war on Ukraine, including Zaporizhzhia, the largest in Europe.<<< (emphasis added)

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/sweeping-us-energy-department-layoffs-hit-nuclear-security-loans-office-sources-2025-02-14/

This article touches on a few of the issues:

>>>The employees at DOGE are reportedly working seven days a week, on very little sleep. This slumber-party atmosphere isn’t a great fit for the sober and secretive world of nuclear weapons, where security lapses are hugely consequential. I spoke with three former officials and nuclear experts about what might happen if DOGE were to take a too-cavalier approach to the NNSA. None believed that Musk’s auditors would try to steal important information—although it is notable that not everyone at DOGE is a federal employee, many lack the security clearance to access the information they are seeking, and Musk had to be stopped from hiring a noncitizen. Nuclear-security lapses don’t need to be intentional to cause lasting damage. “When access to the NNSA’s sensitive systems is not granted through proper channels, they can be compromised by accident,” the former senior official at the Department of Energy, who requested anonymity to discuss internal matters, told me. “You could stumble across some incredibly sensitive things if you are coming at it sideways.”<<<

If DOGE Goes Nuclear

The risk of messing with the wrong computer system

www.theatlantic.com

Someone needs to tell them that anyone who needs NNSA clearance has to be interviewed and anyone vouching for them would be interviewed by the FBI.

 

[Trell]

Someone needs to tell them that anyone who needs NNSA clearance has to be interviewed and anyone vouching for them would be interviewed by the FBI.

I thought that President Trump could give security clearance to anyone he wants to.

 

[Trell]

It's good to see that there are some people with principles and spines:

>>>Manhattan’s U.S. attorney on Thursday resigned rather than obey an order from a top Justice Department official to drop the corruption case against New York City’s mayor, Eric Adams.

Then, when Justice Department officials transferred the case to the public integrity section in Washington, which oversees corruption prosecutions, the two men who led that unit also resigned, according to five people with knowledge of the matter.

Several hours later, three other lawyers in the unit also resigned, according to people familiar with the developments. . . .

The agency’s justification for dropping the case was explicitly political; Mr. Bove had argued that the investigation would prevent Mr. Adams from fully cooperating with Mr. Trump’s immigration crackdown. Mr. Bove made a point of saying that Washington officials had not evaluated the strength of the evidence or the legal theory behind the case.

Ms. Sassoon, in a remarkable letter addressed to Attorney General Pam Bondi, said that Mr. Bove’s order to dismiss the case was “inconsistent with my ability and duty to prosecute federal crimes without fear or favor and to advance good-faith arguments before the courts.”<<<

Danielle Sassoon and Other Officials Resign After Order to Drop Eric Adams Case

The interim U.S. attorney in Manhattan and two officials with the federal public integrity unit quit after the Justice Department ordered the charges against Mayor Eric Adams to be dropped.

www.nytimes.com

Trump is extremely soft on crime if he thinks it suits his political needs at any given moment.

His campaign slogan should have been MACA "Make America Corrupt Again."

Trump has a corrupting influence on his lawyers and many of them did not have the moral integrity to resist (some did, though). Mr. Bove was a recent defence lawyer for Trump and now we know the level of his moral integrity is in his new capacity acting U.S. deputy attorney general: quite low.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I don’t think it will be long before we have AI modeling that can maximize tax rates. The issue is that taxes are often implemented not to increase revenue but to achieve policy goals for government. We need a shift from the ideology of government serving itself to government serving the people. Obviously there will be a lot of issues that need to be addressed along the way.

Isn’t that the way it's supposed to work? Government sets policy goals, then implements taxation regimes with the aim of achieving those goals. Setting arbitrary revenue goals, then formulating policy around them makes no sense.