Bad day to be a terrorist

[Jeepers]

It is complicated. Israel still occupies the southern portion of the Golan heights. Hezbollah have been operating from the high ground along the part that borders with Lebanon. This has been causing significant damage, and making it impossible for Israeli settlers to return to their homes in Northern Israel.

It is not complicated knowing that the Golan Heights are in Syria and not in Lebanon and Israel occupies the western part of the Golan Heights.
Yes Hezbollah is a threat for Northern Israel but that is not related to the Golan Heights.

 

[Trell]

One interesting aspect of the attack against the Hezbollah terrorists is that it weakened one of their key advantages: Secrecy.

>>>Families in Lebanon could have lived for years next to a member of Hezbollah without ever knowing their neighbor was part of the Iran-backed militant group, the country’s most powerful military and political organization.

But in one afternoon, that was punctured as thousands of beepers used by its members exploded in people’s hands and on their belts.

The operation succeeded in temporarily shattering one of the most strategic attributes of Hezbollah: its secrecy.

The group’s guerilla tactics, developed during Israel’s 18-year occupation of southern Lebanon, have made it an elusive enemy.

The practice of hiding in the shadows largely continues to this day, even though Hezbollah has grown into one of two main parties representing the Shia community, Lebanon’s largest religious bloc. Today, there are 13 elected Hezbollah lawmakers in parliament and posters celebrating Hezbollah martyrs can be seen in many Shiite communities.

While reporting in the country, I have occasionally encountered members of Hezbollah’s security wing. Always men dressed in civilian clothes and sometimes carrying walkie-talkies, they have asked to check my documents, and several times ordered me to leave an area they said was “sensitive.”

Their undercover presence was a sharp contrast to the camouflage-uniformed Lebanese Army soldiers, who drive Humvees and guard checkpoints while carrying assault rifles. ...<<<

https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/lebanon-pagers-explode-hezbollah-israel-09-18-24-intl-hnk#h_0d8b044280801c541081416cd7272541

 

[ryanosaur]

I'm going to go with Occam's razor on this. I think the possibility that anyone other than the Israelis doing this is pretty remote.

Disagree with this. With any military action, when there are civilians in the vicinity, there is the possibility of collateral casualties. However, this was very much a targeted attack, with pagers assigned to individuals.

Sorting out the right and the wrong with this conflict is practically impossible. Hamas is clearly the instigator and I have no sympathy for them. Israel had every right to respond to the Oct 7th attack. However, their scorched earth effort to stamp out Hamas has lead to an unconscionable degree of destruction and civilian death and suffering in Gaza.

Our thoughts on this largely align.

I absolutely agree Israel has every right to defend themselves. I also think they took it too far in the response to Hamas.

I think the Palestinian citizens really drew the short end of the stick in all of this and then got beat with all the sticks. Hamas clearly did what they did last year not as an act for the good of achieving a Palestinian State but as an act of a terrorist organization in a proxy war between Iran and Israel. That Hamas has burrowed into, through and under Palestinian cities and is using the non combatant citizenry as shields against Israeli retaliation is a huge game changer and exactly what I meant by creating a gray area.

For Israel to respond, they effectively have to bulldoze through everything to get at Hamas… and that’s exactly what they did. I saw an article indicating that many Palestinians are now questioning the relationship with Hamas.

I see Hezbollah in the same way, burrowed in and intertwined in Lebanon. That any strike against them would result in likely civilian casualties is their clear ploy to dodge a full on military reprisal. Again, this gray area.

While targeted, this pager attack is still not without its randomness. Certainly some civilian casualties were expected by Israel, and probably even expected… and dare I say perhaps hoped for to some extent. How else to prove the point that you can hide in plain sight among the general populace but you aren’t safe and you are making it unsafe for your family, friends, neighbors, etc… And that the Israeli

I get it.

I still don’t like it.

 

[ryanosaur]

@TLS Guy
I have no doubt Israel was behind this.

From a pure logistics perspective, this was a masterstroke, however it was pulled off. I can “appreciate” that.

As I said above, I still don’t like it.

 

[highfigh]

How this incredible feat was pulled off is a mystery, but most experts think those pagers must have been intercepted at some other country and Mossad somehow manage to modify a huge number of pagers.
There has never been anything remotely like this in the history of warfare.

Warfare of the past didn't have the technology for this, nor did it include the minds that concocted the plan.

Mystery, schmystery- Mossad is about the only organization I can think of that hasn't leaked any info by people who "spoke under conditions of anonymity". They're far more locked down than FBI/CIA/DEA/DOJ/Congress/White House....If anything is leaked, it's because they want it leaked.

 

[highfigh]

Our thoughts on this largely align.

I absolutely agree Israel has every right to defend themselves. I also think they took it too far in the response to Hamas.

I think the Palestinian citizens really drew the short end of the stick in all of this and then got beat with all the sticks. Hamas clearly did what they did last year not as an act for the good of achieving a Palestinian State but as an act of a terrorist organization in a proxy war between Iran and Israel. That Hamas has burrowed into, through and under Palestinian cities and is using the non combatant citizenry as shields against Israeli retaliation is a huge game changer and exactly what I meant by creating a gray area.

For Israel to respond, they effectively have to bulldoze through everything to get at Hamas… and that’s exactly what they did. I saw an article indicating that many Palestinians are now questioning the relationship with Hamas.

I see Hezbollah in the same way, burrowed in and intertwined in Lebanon. That any strike against them would result in likely civilian casualties is their clear ploy to dodge a full on military reprisal. Again, this gray area.

While targeted, this pager attack is still not without its randomness. Certainly some civilian casualties were expected by Israel, and probably even expected… and dare I say perhaps hoped for to some extent. How else to prove the point that you can hide in plain sight among the general populace but you aren’t safe and you are making it unsafe for your family, friends, neighbors, etc… And that the Israeli

Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, Houthis in Yemen- does anyone see a pattern?

I don't remember who said it, but the comment was (paraphrased) "Our goal is to beat Israel, with one Palestinian at a time".

 

[Trell]

Our thoughts on this largely align.

I absolutely agree Israel has every right to defend themselves. I also think they took it too far in the response to Hamas.

I think as well that Israel have gone too far in their military response to the Hamas terrorist attack, but so do many Israeli. This is from a survey in beginning of April 2024 (edit: started beginning of March)(https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/05/30/israeli-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/):

While targeted, this pager attack is still not without its randomness. Certainly some civilian casualties were expected by Israel, and probably even expected… and dare I say perhaps hoped for to some extent. How else to prove the point that you can hide in plain sight among the general populace but you aren’t safe and you are making it unsafe for your family, friends, neighbors, etc… And that the Israeli

How more targetted can you be towards thousands of terrorists embedded among civilians? As for trying to eliminate so many terrorists in a hostile country this must be the one with the least amount of collateral damage ever. Afghanistan caused many, many more deaths and wounded.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Our thoughts on this largely align.

I absolutely agree Israel has every right to defend themselves. I also think they took it too far in the response to Hamas.

I think the Palestinian citizens really drew the short end of the stick in all of this and then got beat with all the sticks. Hamas clearly did what they did last year not as an act for the good of achieving a Palestinian State but as an act of a terrorist organization in a proxy war between Iran and Israel. That Hamas has burrowed into, through and under Palestinian cities and is using the non combatant citizenry as shields against Israeli retaliation is a huge game changer and exactly what I meant by creating a gray area.

For Israel to respond, they effectively have to bulldoze through everything to get at Hamas… and that’s exactly what they did. I saw an article indicating that many Palestinians are now questioning the relationship with Hamas.

I see Hezbollah in the same way, burrowed in and intertwined in Lebanon. That any strike against them would result in likely civilian casualties is their clear ploy to dodge a full on military reprisal. Again, this gray area.

While targeted, this pager attack is still not without its randomness. Certainly some civilian casualties were expected by Israel, and probably even expected… and dare I say perhaps hoped for to some extent. How else to prove the point that you can hide in plain sight among the general populace but you aren’t safe and you are making it unsafe for your family, friends, neighbors, etc… And that the Israeli

I get it.

I still don’t like it.

I don't think there is much to like about what has transpired in the middle east over the past year. But, of all the acts of violence that have occurred, this may be the one that I have the least problem with.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I think as well that Israel have gone too far in their military response to the Hamas terrorist attack, but so do many Israeli. This is from a survey in beginning of April 2024 (edit: started beginning of March)(https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/05/30/israeli-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/):

View attachment 69565



How more targetted can you be towards thousands of terrorists embedded among civilians? As for trying to eliminate so many terrorists in a hostile country this must be the one with the least amount of collateral damage ever. Afghanistan caused many, many more deaths and wounded.

While it shows some division amongst Israelis, I think the response to the first poll question still indicates far too little regard for Gazan civilians. As for the second question - they're delusional. Even if they could track down every Hamas member of consequence, do they really think Gazans will be content to just lick their wounds and behave themselves? They have, in fact, just created a new generation of Gazans whose depth of loathing for Israel and Israelis will find no bottom. The cycle will start again, guaranteed.

I support the state of Israel with regard to its right to exist. I just think the continuous biting off of chunks of the West Bank; and now, considering another occupation of Gaza, is completely against their own best interests.

 

[Swerd]

I think reports today make it clear that Israel is behind the pagers blowing up. Mossad probably did all the work. No one really doubted that. But we will never know why they did this.

The real question I have is who ordered this to happen now? I doubt if Mossad leaders wanted to squander their efforts in such a way. I think the orders came from Netanyahu himself to keep his diseased coalition with the Ultra-Orthodox splinter parties from falling apart. That coalition may not have instigated the Oct 7 attacks from Hamas, but they are responsible for the disastrous war that followed.

Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman said:

War is hell. You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it. Those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out.

Netanyahu et al. merely reminded us that Sherman had it right.

 

[ski2xblack]

@ski2xblack @TLS Guy
I'm not trying to be daft, and I completely respect your disliking my post. Would appreciate a response to help me understand why. I'm certainly not an expert on the complexities over there and am open good advice on how to think about it.

I actually like some of your post. My disagreement was with the characterization of being a "grey zone" and explicitly not condoning Israel's conduct. To me, it's pretty clear who the bad guys are. Equivocating or both-sidesing this, because yes, war is hell, ignores the reality of the situation. Hamas and Hezbollah are zealots who cannot be reasoned with and who won't negotiate. The only route to peace is their elimination. I can't fault Israel for this operation.

I am with you in not liking any of this.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think reports today make it clear that Israel is behind the pagers blowing up. Mossad probably did all the work. No one really doubted that. But we will never know why they did this.

The real question I have is who ordered this to happen now? I doubt if Mossad leaders wanted to squander their efforts in such a way. I think the orders came from Netanyahu himself to keep his diseased coalition with the Ultra-Orthodox splinter parties from falling apart. That coalition may not have instigated the Oct 7 attacks from Hamas, but they are responsible for the disastrous war that followed.

Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman said:

Netanyahu et al. merely reminded us that Sherman had it right.

The chances are very high that Victor Oban had a very direct hand in this, and likely facilitated it. What has come out explains what I suspected, in that the phones were manufactured with the explosive charge inside and the software to set it off on remote command.

It seemed to me that the number of phones involved could not have been done by tampering, but had to be manufactured that way.

I strongly suspect there was direct involvement of the highest echelons of the Hungarian government, right up to Victor Oban. Hungary is a country where all this could have been kept locked down.

I suppose it is remotely possible the UK government may have been involved also. The UK is very keen to have Hamas and especially Hezbollah and the Houthi rebels eliminated. This is because the UK is a maritime nation dependent on open seaways, particularly the Suez canal.

 

[TLS Guy]

ANOTHER ROUND OF EXPLOSIONS IN LEBANON TODAY.

Today, there have been at least three hundred Walkie-Talkie explosions in Lebanon. These are more powerful and have started fires.

I now suspect the Israel will carry out a major invasion of Lebanon imminently. This is all starting to look like a prelude to something much bigger.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I don't think there is much to like about what has transpired in the middle east over the past year. But, of all the acts of violence that have occurred, this may be the one that I have the least problem with.

Absolutely. We can certainly see what the price is going after Hamas.

Too bad this could not have been done to Hamas.

 

[Trell]

ANOTHER ROUND OF EXPLOSIONS IN LEBANON TODAY.

Today, there have been at least three hundred Walkie-Talkie explosions in Lebanon. These are more powerful and have started fires.

I now suspect the Israel will carry out a major invasion of Lebanon imminently. This is all starting to look like a prelude to something much bigger.

More likely this is a use-it-or-loose-it situation as every electronic device is suspected of being booby trapped.

 

[ryanosaur]

I actually like some of your post. My disagreement was with the characterization of being a "grey zone" and explicitly not condoning Israel's conduct. To me, it's pretty clear who the bad guys are. Equivocating or both-sidesing this, because yes, war is hell, ignores the reality of the situation. Hamas and Hezbollah are zealots who cannot be reasoned with and who won't negotiate. The only route to peace is their elimination. I can't fault Israel for this operation.

I am with you in not liking any of this.

I struggle with that.

I know there were folk going so far as to side with Hamas.

I am not one of them.

If Hamas had a contract to protect and lead the Palestinian population in Gaza, they revealed that such a contract was a farce; that their priority is and always has been to fight Israel no matter the cost.

My struggle will stand. I accept and support Israel’s right to defend themselves. I just think they are crossing some lines in how they are doing it. And again, I also recognize that Hamas and Hezbollah both are effectively using the overall populace around them as shields while also not limiting their actions to strictly military targets.

 

[Trell]

If Hamas had a contract to protect and lead the Palestinian population in Gaza, they revealed that such a contract was a farce; that their priority is and always has been to fight Israel no matter the cost.

Hamas did win the Palestinian elections in 2006 and its goal is to erase Israel from the map and kill every Jew.

The extensive raping and sexual mutilation of women and children Hamas did in their massive terrorist attack October 7th last year shows in what way they will try to murder every Jew they can.

 

[ryanosaur]

Hamas did win the Palestinian elections in 2006 and its goal is to erase Israel from the map and kill every Jew.

The extensive raping and sexual mutilation of women and children Hamas did in their massive terrorist attack October 7th last year shows in what way they will try to murder every Jew they can.

Yup. I get all that.

Again, no question in my mind about who hamas and hezbollah are. No sir, I don't like them.

But do you become your criminal enemy to defeat them? And what happens if you win? Are you any better than they ever were?

 

[Trell]

Yup. I get all that.

Again, no question in my mind about who hamas and hezbollah are. No sir, I don't like them.

But do you become your criminal enemy to defeat them? And what happens if you win? Are you any better than they ever were?

As I wrote earlier in the thread I think the Israeli military response to the massive terrorist attack is excessive.

That said there is a crucial difference: Israel will not commit genocide because they will not but Hamas does not commit genocide because they cannot.

 

[ryanosaur]

Let me add this to the mix:

Did Israeli pager attack on Hezbollah violate international law?

Israel has targeted Hezbollah members with pagers rigged with explosives. The New Arab looks into whether this violated international law?

www.newarab.com

Along with an editorial from The Guardian:

Opinion | The Guardian view on Israel’s booby-trap war: illegal and unacceptable — Guardian US

Editorial: Benjamin Netanyahu’s hold on power depends on his nation being at war. The region is paying a high price

apple.news

I had seen some other conversation about use of booby traps and international law. Again, I do not claim expert status, but the key aspects are, did Israel do enough to distinguish between civilian and combatant casualty. Either way, with claimed civilian casualty, one can argue they did not…
This attack is absolutely treading a very fine line of legality, and is quite frankly ethically wrong even if not technically illegal according to the agreement Israel is a signatory of.
I’ve studied ethics, including that as applied to war. It’s a sticky mess no matter how you slice it.
However, booby traps that affect non-combatant citizenry are clearly proscribed by law. Thus one could argue that Israel is now acting as a terrorist state.

Please understand, this is not my stance. I just hope to further the conversation. Clearly there are many who think Israel is right to do whatever they deem necessary. Others, not so much, to the extent some even side with Hamas over Israel as it regards the attack on Oct.7: SOMETHING I DO NOT SUPPORT AT ALL.

You don't have to like or agree with my questioning this, but I'm not going to just stand put and say this is OK, simply rubber stamping Israel's actions.

I've admitted that this is something I'm struggling with as a matter of course. I'm a little surprised more people aren't having trouble with this as well.