SC-LX904 benchmark testing?

[Mr. Malbolgia]

Hello all:

I have recently purchased a Pioneer Elite SC-LX904, and have been completely unable to find any real world reviews or testing that has been done by a reputable and relatively unbiased reviewer. I find this concerning, as not only is this a few years old now, but I have had very poor luck matching the audio performance of my aging VSX-94TXH. The receiver will not arrive for two weeks, so I have begun hunting for further information as it was damned expensive. I am having second thoughts, especially with the lack of solid measurements available. I looked at the Yamaha RX-A6/8 but couldn't get past the looks (and I desire a larger display on the unit).

Just for some background, I have gone through four (!) brand new receivers in the last two years, with none impressing me enough to keep. These include two Onkyo's and two from Denon, all in the higher tier offered by those manufacturers. I am aware that Onkyo bought the AV division of Pioneer a few years ago, and am a little concerned by this. We seem to have far fewer choices than we have had in the past. The Denon AVR's seem to measure the best on ASR, but I was not impressed by the sound of the X3600 or X4700.

Has anyone, anywhere been successful in finding actual benchmarks of this receiver? Bah, perhaps I should just wait another generation.

Thanks in advance.

 

[PENG]

The Denon AVR's seem to measure the best on ASR, but I was not impressed by the sound of the X3600 or X4700.

Has anyone, anywhere been successful in finding actual benchmarks of this receiver? Bah, perhaps I should just wait another generation.

Thanks in advance.

The very good measurements of those two Denon's simply mean the preamp, dac and power amp sections are more transparent/accurate relative to those measured not as well. In such case, those measured with much higher THD and/or non flat FR may actually sound better to you but you wouldn't know until you try them, sort of hit and miss in that approach unfortunately. Other than that REQ, GEQ, and other tone control may be able to get you the kind of "sound" you prefer.

The LX904 seems to be a flagship class AVR but no Dirac Live? Wouldn't be better off going with the LX505 that has Dirac Live and cost a lot less. Or wait for the 905, that likely would come with Direct Live, hopefully.

There is a power amp output test on the LX704, the 904 should be similar but may be slightly more powerful:

Pioneer SC-LX704 (Test) – audiovision

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

The very good measurements of those two Denon's simply mean the preamp, dac and power amp sections are more transparent/accurate relative to those measured not as well. In such case, those measured with much higher THD and/or non flat FR may actually sound better to you but you wouldn't know until you try them, sort of hit and miss in that approach unfortunately. Other than that REQ, GEQ, and other tone control may be able to get you the kind of "sound" you prefer.

The LX904 seems to be a flagship class AVR but no Dirac Live? Wouldn't be better off going with the LX505 that has Dirac Live and cost a lot less. Or wait for the 905, that likely would come with Direct Live, hopefully.

Thanks Peng,

I am familiar with the ASR testing protocol, and have read your posts extensively on those forums (and learned a great deal). Sometimes the discussions over there make me feel a little slow, and unfortunately too much information (which I don't have the education to properly parse) can be detrimental when comparing complex equipment! Still like to nerd out over there though. I appreciate your response here.

I have had similar thoughts regarding waiting, however there will always be something bigger and better just around the corner. You are correct, the SC-LX904 is the current PE flagship (soon to be superseded).

I used to own an Onkyo TX-SR876 that had a significantly lower noise floor than the '94, and was specced for less THD. I definitely prefer the sound of the Elite. Front end magic for me I suppose. I am simply unwilling to accept a 1080p signal with my 4k HDR system any longer, and have to choose between good audio or good video. I want both dammit! None of the splitter/scalers I have used (including HDFury) have worked for me. I have no need of 8k (yet).

I have a love/hate relationship with Audyssey, though XT32 was certainly an improvement over XT. I have found that the minimal interference from MCACC has worked consistently. I have no experience with DIRAC. AccuEQ did not impress me. I do use REW and MSO to equalize my 3 subs so am less concerned about the extremes of room correction (as of yet, perhaps DIRAC would ruin me). I don't have golden ears, but am able to hear distortion and sometimes phase issues, though not well enough to find fault with my Crown XLS amps (I use them for subs, but have A/B "tested" against my receivers). Lucky, I suppose. I seem to hear the difference between Lossless and 5.1 DD music, and have an extensive SACD and Blu-Ray Audio collection of multichannel tunes. This difference is negligible though, and really only appears at high volume. Nevertheless, I would not want to attempt to identify them in a blind test, lmao!

I suppose I am more concerned about the ability of the SC-LX904 to maintain high power outputs after the horrendous showing of the VSX-LX504. I have a fairly robust 7 channel setup of Energy C8's (4 ohms) and thought I don't often listen at 11, I occasionally like to play a concert Blu-Ray at reference level.

Perhaps I am having buyers remorse. I truly hate the idea of spending $3600 on an AVR that will underperform or prove unreliable. It appears I will simply have to push the new box to see what happens.

Thanks again!

 

[lovinthehd]

Send your new one to Amir and create the test you're looking for? I haven't had your experience of finding "the sound" of an avr to be a particular issue....the flavors only slightly differ.

 

[PENG]

I suppose I am more concerned about the ability of the SC-LX904 to maintain high power outputs after the horrendous showing of the VSX-LX504. I have a fairly robust 7 channel setup of Energy C8's (4 ohms) and thought I don't often listen at 11, I occasionally like to play a concert Blu-Ray at reference level.

The LX904 should be able to maintain higher power output than the LX504 but based on the ASR review, I would suggest you put a couple of those Infinity USB fans on top, our blow from the back to front. If you set their speed to minimum you likely won't hear them from 11 ft.

The ASR review shows that the LX504's preamp/DAC, i.e. the pre out is very comparable to that of the AVR-X3600H and AVR-X4700H at output up to 1.5 V or 2 V if you use it as a preamp/processor. The amp section was not bad either except it looked like their direct energy class D? amp section requires some super nanny (that's what Gene called those overly aggressive protection systems) that might have been doing some power limiting prematurely and too aggressively.

The LX904's ES9026Pro DAC chips are the same as those used in the RX-A8A and they have much lower distortions+noise than the VSX-94TXH's TI chip, the PCM1791. I don't think you can go wrong especially if you use external power amps. It should be a significant upgrade, based on specs, though again, on the subjective side you will have to wait and see because it will be up to your ears/brains unless you can do a comparison in a controlled DBT and use pure direct model but obviously that is not going to happen.

I do understand your concern though as $3,600 is a lot of money if you don't get impressed by it. Is it returnable?

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

The LX904 should be able to maintain higher power output than the LX504 but based on the ASR review, I would suggest you put a couple of those Infinity USB fans on top, our blow from the back to front. If you set their speed to minimum you likely won't hear them from 11 ft.

The ASR review shows that the LX504's preamp/DAC, i.e. the pre out is very comparable to that of the AVR-X3600H and AVR-X4700H at output up to 1.5 V or 2 V if you use it as a preamp/processor. The amp section was not bad either except it looked like their direct energy class D? amp section requires some super nanny (that's what Gene called those overly aggressive protection systems) that might have been doing some power limiting prematurely and too aggressively.

The LX904's ES9026Pro DAC chips are the same as those used in the RX-A8A and they have much lower distortions+noise than the VSX-94TXH's TI chip, the PCM1791. I don't think you can go wrong especially if you use external power amps. It should be a significant upgrade, based on specs, though again, on the subjective side you will have to wait and see because it will be up to your ears/brains unless you can do a comparison in a controlled DBT and use pure direct model but obviously that is not going to happen.

I do understand your concern though as $3,600 is a lot of money if you don't get impressed by it. Is it returnable?

It is returnable, yes. It should be here in about two weeks, and I have 30 calendar days from when I pick it up to live with it.

It occurs to me that I may simply have hit the point of diminishing returns in such a manner that the Denon amps (while good) didn’t wow me like the jump from low-mid range to flagship level receivers did... Perhaps nothing will again, and I simply have to accept that any gains are going to be minimal and mostly of convenience and improved amenities.

I will say that the tiny power supplies in the Denon amps were disappointing after the nearly 10 amp hog in the TX-SR876. I imagine that is simply a matter of conditioning, but I’ll be damned if I don’t equate weight with quality, and the X4700 was all around pretty tiny.

I may yet return to it, pending my experience with the SC-LX904.

 

[lovinthehd]

The days of the massive amps in some avrs, which really only was a handful of models over all the years, is pretty much over except at the flagship level, and even those aren't quite as powerful as those from 10-15 years ago. Then again if you really need that much more amp, that's what pre-outs are for. Mostly what differentiates avrs are the flavor of dsp, and the features/connectivity options.

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

Send your new one to Amir and create the test you're looking for? I haven't had your experience of finding "the sound" of an avr to be a particular issue....the flavors only slightly differ.

I would love to, but the turnaround would be too long for the return window. I have only 30 days from when I pick it up, and live in Canada.

As far as the difference in sound, I can’t quantify it. Truth is, I keep coming back to this Pioneer. It does something I like, and the others simply didn’t.

Perhaps I’ll send one of the VSX-94TXH receivers to Amir in the future, see what comes out of it.

Edit: apparently my shrug emoji turns into the symbol for male. Not sure that added anything to the discussion.

 

[lovinthehd]

I would love to, but the turnaround would be too long for the return window. I have only 30 days from when I pick it up, and live in Canada.

As far as the difference in sound, I can’t quantify it. Truth is, I keep coming back to this Pioneer. It does something I like, and the others simply didn’t. ‍♂

Perhaps I’ll send one of the VSX-94TXH receivers to Amir in the future, see what comes out of it.

Unless you're able to do a quick switching blind level matched test, I wouldn't put too much into the casual impressions....sonic memory is not reliable. Sometimes you just have to tweak settings/eq until you find something that makes you happier I have four avr systems in the house at this time, and they all sound fine....they do differ a bit in amp capability/dsp, but nothing particularly significant. Mostly about the speakers and subs and rooms. Electronics not so much.

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

Unless you're able to do a quick switching blind level matched test, I wouldn't put too much into the casual impressions....sonic memory is not reliable. Sometimes you just have to tweak settings/eq until you find something that makes you happier I have four avr systems in the house at this time, and they all sound fine....they do differ a bit in amp capability/dsp, but nothing particularly significant. Mostly about the speakers and subs and rooms. Electronics not so much.

That may be it. My older Onkyo didn’t have the capability for altering Audyssey, and I hated what it did to bass. The receiver was excellent outside of that, save for being an oven and having surprisingly low subwoofer output which also popped when shutting down. It’s tuner wouldn’t pick up a radio station in stereo (oddly a search turned up at least one other person with the same issue). What a monstrously powerful unit though.

I didn’t really spend much time tweaking the Denon with the app, and that may be all it needed.

Every generation of receiver adds and removes options I like/dislike, but rarely anything I need (of course HDMI is quickly turning into something akin to planned obsolescence), and to be honest, if it wasn’t for the inability to pass a 4k signal, I would likely be happy indefinitely with what I currently have.

 

[PENG]

That may be it. My older Onkyo didn’t have the capability for altering Audyssey, and I hated what it did to bass. The receiver was excellent outside of that, save for being an oven and having surprisingly low subwoofer output which also popped when shutting down. It’s tuner wouldn’t pick up a radio station in stereo (oddly a search turned up at least one other person with the same issue). What a monstrously powerful unit though.

I didn’t really spend much time tweaking the Denon with the app, and that may be all it needed.

Every generation of receiver adds and removes options I like/dislike, but rarely anything I need (of course HDMI is quickly turning into something akin to planned obsolescence), and to be honest, if it wasn’t for the inability to pass a 4k signal, I would likely be happy indefinitely with what I currently have.

As you already know in terms of objective measurements there really isn't any AVR-X4700H in the <C$3,000 range except the AVR-X3700H, though the Pioneer came within a few dB if you compare THD+N at the pre out up to 1.5 V. So I would just share my own experience as follow:

- AB Compared the AVR-X3400H and X4400H with my separates (Halo A21 paired with Azur 840A V2) in stereo, analog input, direct mode.

- Compared the X4400H used as preamp/proc with the AV8801, non AB, so just by memory.

- Compared the X4400H with my other separate pair Marantz SC-7 and SM-7.

Based on the above experience, I would say the X3400H and X4400H are as accurate or transparent as my preamp/power amp pairs when used well below their limit and with no DSP functions involved. If you use Audyssey though, I would bet in most rooms you will find the bass seem to be largely gone. So if you don't prefer flat bass response you would have to customize your own target curve, and at the minimum add a few dB to the sub level trim and use DEQ all the time.

So I am not surprised if you were not impressed by the Denon AVR-X4700H's "sound" because that thing would just sound neutral, and would therefore generate no excitement. That is until you play some very well recorded/mastered movies, you will be shocked by the excellent dynamics it could reproduced despite the physically small power supply.

Obviously nothing can compare with the likes of those heavy weight Onkyo 805, 875, 876 or their equivalent Integra cousins.

Take a look of my comparison table (thanks to soundandvision.com) and guess which AVRs ranked top:
Note that the Denon AVR-4308CI (mine is still in top condition) did beat them in two channel driven yet it is 9 lbs lighter. You can't always go by weight and size especially when comparing those manufactured more than 10 years ago. The power supply of the mid range D+M AVRs are surprising capable for their weight and size.

Edit: I should emphasize that the table below is my own, tabulating the results based on S&V's bench tests on the listed devices. I included the link just so it is clear if anyone want to see the actual reviews and measurements they can visit soundandvison.com and search for the specific lab results they are interested in.

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

As you already know in terms of objective measurements there really isn't any AVR-X4700H in the <C$3,000 range except the AVR-X3700H, though the Pioneer came within a few dB if you compare THD+N at the pre out up to 1.5 V. So I would just share my own experience as follow:

- AB Compared the AVR-X3400H and X4400H with my separates (Halo A21 paired with Azur 840A V2) in stereo, analog input, direct mode.

- Compared the X4400H used as preamp/proc with the AV8801, non AB, so just by memory.

- Compared the X4400H with my other separate pair Marantz SC-7 and SM-7.

Based on the above experience, I would say the X3400H and X4400H are as accurate or transparent as my preamp/power amp pairs when used well below their limit and with no DSP functions involved. If you use Audyssey though, I would bet in most rooms you will find the bass seem to be largely gone. So if you don't prefer flat bass response you would have to customize your own target curve, and at the minimum add a few dB to the sub level trim and use DEQ all the time.

So I am not surprised if you were not impressed by the Denon AVR-X4700H's "sound" because that thing would just sound neutral, and would therefore generate no excitement. That is until you play some very well recorded/mastered movies, you will be shocked by the excellent dynamics it could reproduced despite the physically small power supply.

Obviously nothing can compare with the likes of those heavy weight Onkyo 805, 875, 876 or their equivalent Integra cousins.

Take a look of my comparison table (thanks to soundandvision.com) and guess which AVRs ranked top:
Note that the Denon AVR-4308CI (mine is still in top condition) did beat them in two channel driven yet it is 9 lbs lighter. You can't always go by weight and size especially when comparing those manufactured more than 10 years ago. The power supply of the mid range D+M AVRs are surprising capable for their weight and size.

View attachment 53460

Thanks for the chart! Some pretty big numbers up top.

I will just have to see how this new receiver turns out. I‘ll do some REW sweeps when the new receiver gets here and compare.

I do EQ my bass flat with REW/MSO already, but I probably should have put a “curtain“ in Audyssey.

It is entirely possible I don’t like flat, and MCCAC is much more limited in scope for EQ. I will say, however, that I find the centre image improved with my VSX-94TXH when compared to the TX-SR876. These are two receivers I had in my system for years and swapped back and forth. The newer Denon imaged as well as the Pioneer.

I did like the Denon, but was not blown away. The truth is that there wasn’t enough (if any) difference in sound with all things being equal, and I am having a hard time accepting that I may have hit a ceiling as far as performance goes. Which means I am really paying a lot of money for a video switcher with a radio in it. Something likely to be true of the new SC-LX904 I ordered as well. How depressing.

After I started this thread, I found this article: https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/receiver-back-panel-power-ratings

This one really made me shake my head, because I am the skeptic who thought the power supply was always listed at full draw. I learn more every time I get involved in one of these threads. I have to admit, I wish I‘d known this sooner as it may have snuffed out my confirmation bias quite some time ago and saved me some money!

Thanks for all the input.

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

Well, not only did I purchase this receiver, but I kept it. Subjectively this is the best sounding receiver that I have ever heard. Ample power, runs my Crown amplifiers just fine for my subs and has had not one single handshake issue.

Whatever the measurements may say (if there ever are any), this is a fantastic sounding piece of equipment. I have no regrets about this purchase.

 

[dlaloum]

Latest news... there was a video interview recorded over the last couple of days, in which Voxx/PIOnkyo representatives talk of having the model up from the RZ70 in their test environment, (they also introduced some of the Japanese engineers who designed it, - and they were all visiting CEDIA - although they are not exhibiting at CEDIA)

So apparently the RZ90 / LX905 is real, and is currently in its final test phase... presumably the first manufacturing runs have been completed and the stock is heading out through the channels and to early reviewers. (I Hope)

I too previously owned a TX-SR876, followed by the very very similar Integra DTR 70.4 - both were great sounding, and handled my difficult low impedance speakers with aplomb.

Right now I am running an Integra DRX 3.4 - which does not handle my speakers well at all, but does a great job as a preamp, feeding my Crown XLS amps .... the combo is on a par with the 876/70.4 when running without EQ. - But it takes a step up in performance when Dirac is engaged. (Audyssey never achieved this on the 876 and 70.4).

My plan is to upgrade when a flagship model is released with Dirac SRC support... and onsell my 3.4 at that stage...

It is good to hear that you have had a positive experience with the 904, as I am betting that the chassis and power amps etc... of the 905 will probably be the same... I expect only the DSP will change. (regardless of whether I end up with the Integra, Onkyo or Pioneer version.... that will be based on what the local market pricing ends up as!)

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

That is fantastic news! I am interested in seeing what they offer over and above the VSX-805 - though current prices are likely to place these on unobtainable window shopping level.

I hope Onkyo and Pioneer continue to be viable and that Premier Audio invests heavily in their future.

 

[dlaloum]

Sadly PAC/Voxx have not been doing well, although the Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer products have been doing well, the overall company financials have not been looking good...

The ongoing silence about further developments, and new products may be related...

Or they may be waiting to launch the flagship models with ART in place.... (the optimist perspective - I hope this is the case)

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

Well, some unfortunate issues have come up with this piece of equipment. I wish I had known earlier to test these things, but life became busy for a time.

The SC-LX904 exhibits some odd quirks when playing back a number of audio codecs. The first example is PCM 4.0 (quad) - which simply will not play the two "rear" channels, nor will it downmix into stereo. The information is simply lost. Oddly, the receiver recognizes the signal and properly shows the incoming and outgoing signal on the info screen.

The second issue it that the AVR automatically upmixes any DD or DTS signal with the addition of two rear channels! This means that a DD 4.0 signal is played as 6.0, or that a 5.1 is played as 7.1 and this "feature" cannot be turned off! This doesn't mean anything to me when watching a movie, but it makes me crazy when I am trying to listen to multichannel music. I want to hear what was intended by the artist in those cases, not a matrixed version of it. This does not affect DSD or DVD-A sources, nor multichannel PCM (save for the previously mentioned 4.0 issue). Both my VSX-94THX and my Onkyo TX-NR906 had no issues with any of this.

As I said, none of my older monster receivers had this problem, and based on my research on the Google, this is a pretty common issue with most new receivers! I am beginning to regret selling my collection.

Granted, this unit does sound fantastic... but come on man - none of this should ever be an issue, especially since no one includes multichannel analog inputs on equipment anymore.

Perhaps most would not see this as an issue - but I want to be able to decide how I listen to music, especially when paying big bucks for equipment.

 

[Trebdp83]

What is your current speaker configuration? What are the different devices used for music playback?

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, some unfortunate issues have come up with this piece of equipment. I wish I had known earlier to test these things, but life became busy for a time.

The SC-LX904 exhibits some odd quirks when playing back a number of audio codecs. The first example is PCM 4.0 (quad) - which simply will not play the two "rear" channels, nor will it downmix into stereo. The information is simply lost. Oddly, the receiver recognizes the signal and properly shows the incoming and outgoing signal on the info screen.

The second issue it that the AVR automatically upmixes any DD or DTS signal with the addition of two rear channels! This means that a DD 4.0 signal is played as 6.0, or that a 5.1 is played as 7.1 and this "feature" cannot be turned off! This doesn't mean anything to me when watching a movie, but it makes me crazy when I am trying to listen to multichannel music. I want to hear what was intended by the artist in those cases, not a matrixed version of it. This does not affect DSD or DVD-A sources, nor multichannel PCM (save for the previously mentioned 4.0 issue). Both my VSX-94THX and my Onkyo TX-NR906 had no issues with any of this.

As I said, none of my older monster receivers had this problem, and based on my research on the Google, this is a pretty common issue with most new receivers! I am beginning to regret selling my collection.

Granted, this unit does sound fantastic... but come on man - none of this should ever be an issue, especially since no one includes multichannel analog inputs on equipment anymore.

Perhaps most would not see this as an issue - but I want to be able to decide how I listen to music, especially when paying big bucks for equipment.

When I play quad stuff it plays thru fronts and surrounds but not rear surrounds....your older avrs used rear surrounds rather than surrounds? Doesn't it have a direct mode to avoid the DTS or Dolby sound mode upmixing?

 

[Mr. Malbolgia]

When I play quad stuff it plays thru fronts and surrounds but not rear surrounds....your older avrs used rear surrounds rather than surrounds? Doesn't it have a direct mode to avoid the DTS or Dolby sound mode upmixing?

By "rear" I was referring to the rear channels in a 4.0 configuration. The music should be played through the front left and right, as well as the right and left surrounds. Alas, there is nothing played but the information from the front left and right.

The older receivers worked as expected, with FL-FR-SL-SR playing the quad mixes.