80hz Crossover on large floor standing setup

[David Faulkner]

So I'm a little frustrated because I just spent almost 3 grand on a new system and 80hz sounds the best. I bought a Yamaha Aventage RX-760 receiver, 1 Klipsch R-C25 center, and 4 Klipsch R-28F's that get down to 35hz +/-3db and I use them for my fronts and rears, I also bought 2 Klipsch R-10SW sub-woofers. The reason I'm so frustrated is that I feel like I wasted so much money buying large floor standing speakers that go down to 35hz expecting to have bass all around me and here I am setting the crossover to 80hz, its like I should have just bought 4 bookself speakers. Has anyone else had this problem? It just makes no sense to me! I tried setting it to 60hz (which would be okay with me) and that sounds great on some things but 80hz seems to have a "tighter" feel to it.

 

[ski2xblack]

There are a couple things to keep in mind. First, by using the 80 hz high pass frequency you are limiting cone motion on the mains, which will reduce modulation distortion on higher frequencies they also reproduce, giving improved mid-bass and mid-range quality (this is exactly what you mentioned with the "tighter feel"). Related, but perhaps marginal, you allocate available amp power more optimally, with slight increase in available headroom. Second, your towers will have gobs more headroom than a smaller speaker above 80 hz, allowing them to achieve louder clean output. Wide dynamic range pays big dividends when it comes to realism and impact.

So don't feel frustrated. Your settings happen to coincide with the most widely recommended approach, and you're experiencing the results. So again, don't be frustrated, you're doing just fine. Your system with towers has more capability than one using smaller speakers. Relish in it, and go crank your favorite tunes!

 

[David Faulkner]

Thank you! That's exactly what I wanted to hear! A technical explanation.

Thanks again

 

[j_garcia]

80Hz x-over is not a brick wall either. The speaker will still see sound down to 40Hz at a reduced output as you move further away from the x-over point.

 

[ski2xblack]

80Hz x-over is not a brick wall either. The speaker will still see sound down to 40Hz at a reduced output as you move further away from the x-over point.

To add to that, because it's not a brick wall filter, it's generally good practice with reflex speakers to cross them over at least an octave above their native roll-off, which the 80 hz high pass achieves. Crossing lower may result in weird phase problems when it comes to blending with the subs, and it will increase the previously mentioned modulation of higher frequencies.

 

[Diesel57]

This is a A+ technical atmosphere that provides sounded advice along with receiving information and knowledge to share with others that provides one with directions along with answers to the solutions you're seeking and a place where opinions are given respect without offending anyone along with support for one another, even doing my glory days of playing ball have I experience team support like this..."A PLACE TO EMBRACE"...TO ALL...THANK YOU FOR YOUR ACCEPTANCE!!!. GREATFULNESS TO ALL !!!

 

[lovinthehd]

@David Faulkner you're just bearing out the psychology of the large/small terminology used, just keep in mind it's simply bass management on or off. OTOH maybe you'd have liked bookshelves instead, but maybe not. I wouldn't look back if you've found some good audio now with your towers. I just recently added a pair of towers in my main setup after using good bookshelves all around, plus multiple subs, I like 'em and don't plan on returning them or anything, but they're just a bit more capable, particularly on their own.

I cross my towers higher than 80, fwiw. My subs are way better at handling it, doing what they do best, freeing up my speakers to do what they can do best. My towers could never keep up with my subs in the lower frequencies at very high spls. Just wait until you get your hands on some really good large subs....but be warned it's a rabbit hole like Alice found

 

[herbu]

Just wait until you get your hands on some really good large subs

Bingo!!! You're fine with the 80Hz crossover. But if you think it sounds good now, start saving for a couple big boy subs, (like Rythmik FV15HP or SVS PB13Ultra). You'll be a babbling, drooling idiot for a few days after add them.

 

[Grey Goose]

I'll start a new post if I have to but I have a similar situation as David above.

In my case my front L/R towers are bi-amped to my Pioneer Elite VSX-90. I do have the speakers set to small with the x.Over set to 80Hz. The other night I chose t play some test tones that were 80Hzs down to 50Hzs. I noticed to things that got my head scratching. 1) The test tones below 80Hzs were coming from the towers and the sub. 2) The subs did not play any test tones that the towers were unable to reproduce. For example, there was no sound at 50Hz or less. The sub is rated down to 25Hz.

The sub is plugged into the LFE/Sub-Out on the receiver. I did reference the user's manual and didn't find any information relevant to this particular situation. I did, however, verify that all the settings for bi-amp were set in the Receiver software and that all speaker connections were setup properly according to both the receiver manual and the speaker manual.

Is this expected behavior when bi-amping?

 

[j_garcia]

I'll start a new post if I have to but I have a similar situation as David above.

In my case my front L/R towers are bi-amped to my Pioneer Elite VSX-90. I do have the speakers set to small with the x.Over set to 80Hz. The other night I chose t play some test tones that were 80Hzs down to 50Hzs. I noticed to things that got my head scratching. 1) The test tones below 80Hzs were coming from the towers and the sub. 2) The subs did not play any test tones that the towers were unable to reproduce. For example, there was no sound at 50Hz or less. The sub is rated down to 25Hz.

The sub is plugged into the LFE/Sub-Out on the receiver. I did reference the user's manual and didn't find any information relevant to this particular situation. I did, however, verify that all the settings for bi-amp were set in the Receiver software and that all speaker connections were setup properly according to both the receiver manual and the speaker manual.

Is this expected behavior when bi-amping?

Bi-amping off a receiver serves no purpose since all channels are coming from the same power supply. This is also not likely the culprit.

LFE and bass redirection via bass management are not the same thing. LFE is a dedicated channel. That is different from bass management sending bass to that same channel. When any speakers are set to small, the sounds from those channels are then sent to the sub below the x-over point. The reason they may both be playing is most likely a configuration option you chose for the sub in the receiver: Yes/No/Both. You likely have it set to "both".

 

[Grey Goose]

Thank you for your quick response. Below is directly from the manual and directly relates to your point above:

- LFE Signals and bass frequencies of channels set to SMALL are output from the subwoofer when YES is selected. Choose the PLUS setting if you want the subwoofer to output the subwoofer to output bass sound continuously or you want deeper bass (the bass frequencies that would normally come out of the front and center speakers are also routed to the subwoofer). If you did not connect a subwoofer choose NO (the bass frequencies are output from other speakers).

I apologize for any typos above. The PDF is protected and would not allow me to simply copy and paste.

My speakers are set to small and the subwoofer is set to YES. I even tried other combinations such as Large/Yes, Large/Plus, and Small Plus. I'll try again tonight to ensure I haven't missed anything. If it turns out that I am indeed setting everything properly in the settings, are there any other things I may check or actions that I can perform to help eliminate causes?

 

[tom67]

So I'm a little frustrated because I just spent almost 3 grand on a new system and 80hz sounds the best. I bought a Yamaha Aventage RX-760 receiver, 1 Klipsch R-C25 center, and 4 Klipsch R-28F's that get down to 35hz +/-3db and I use them for my fronts and rears, I also bought 2 Klipsch R-10SW sub-woofers. The reason I'm so frustrated is that I feel like I wasted so much money buying large floor standing speakers that go down to 35hz expecting to have bass all around me and here I am setting the crossover to 80hz, its like I should have just bought 4 bookself speakers. Has anyone else had this problem? It just makes no sense to me! I tried setting it to 60hz (which would be okay with me) and that sounds great on some things but 80hz seems to have a "tighter" feel to it.

actually a great question......so good in fact that there is not a fully satisfactory answer. I have been asking the same thing for years. Why would someone buy a 500 HP car if the universal speed limit was 35 MPH? Since your speakers only need to go down to 80hz with use of a sub, why not better quality drivers in smaller boxes? I agree that in most cases, a bookshelf system with a sub would make more sense in a 5.1 system and take up less space in an average size listening room.That would be especially true for people who largely use the system for HT. For music purists that do not use a sub, full range quality floor models are the obvious choice, but they would set them to "Large" and listen without a sub.So, you can use your towers that way and have an advantage. One cant help but notice that even in floor standers, there are few large drivers these days. Its almost as if the Mfgs assume that everyone will use a sub. Your floor standers do have an advantage in a larger room in that the multiple drivers will "fill the room" a bit better and sound less isolated. I can tell you that I have experimented with every speaker I have owned including present Klipsch models similar to yours. I agree with most "experts" that, when using a sub, they should be set to "small". The exception is when listening to old muddy rock where you find large quantities of muddled bass to be nostalgic. I also have my crossover at 80hz which is an imperfect solution. 80 is too high with Newer movies with tons of bass and too low for older compressed cds and cable tv movies which have little bass content. I am constantly jogging between 60hz and 80hz. Too bad a YPAO type system is not available that samples the bass content constantly and makes makes automatic changes to pre-selected preferences.

 

[herbu]

actually a great question......so good in fact that there is not a fully satisfactory answer.

Yes, there is. It's in the very first response.

 

[PENG]

In my case my front L/R towers are bi-amped to my Pioneer Elite VSX-90. I do have the speakers set to small with the x.Over set to 80Hz. The other night I chose t play some test tones that were 80Hzs down to 50Hzs. I noticed to things that got my head scratching. 1) The test tones below 80Hzs were coming from the towers and the sub. 2) The subs did not play any test tones that the towers were unable to reproduce. For example, there was no sound at 50Hz or less. The sub is rated down to 25Hz.

1) If you play test tones from 80 Hz down to 50 Hz, it would be normal for the L/R and the sub to both play those tones because the filters are not brick walls.

2) Since you only play 80-50 Hz tones, why would you expect any sound below 50 Hz?

The sub is plugged into the LFE/Sub-Out on the receiver. I did reference the user's manual and didn't find any information relevant to this particular situation. I did, however, verify that all the settings for bi-amp were set in the Receiver software and that all speaker connections were setup properly according to both the receiver manual and the speaker manual.

Okay then you did it right and your speakers and subs were doing fine.

Is this expected behavior when bi-amping?

Your speakers and subs appeared to be behaving as expected, but it had nothing to do with bi-amping.

If you play the receiver's internal test tone, that is a pink noise, then it obviously will play through only the selected speaker.

 

[desertrider]

Another thing...just because a speaker *can* go down to 35htz doesnt mean it *should*. Your speakers have dual 8's, and theres just no way they could handle <60htz material as effectively as a good 15". As others have mentioned, it simply gives your speakers and your receiver more headroom to really pump out that mid bass.

 

[Dan Madden]

Another thing...just because a speaker *can* go down to 35htz doesnt mean it *should*. Your speakers have dual 8's, and theres just no way they could handle <60htz material as effectively as a good 15". As others have mentioned, it simply gives your speakers and your receiver more headroom to really pump out that mid bass.

Perfectly said desertrider !

 

[j_garcia]

Thank you for your quick response. Below is directly from the manual and directly relates to your point above:

- LFE Signals and bass frequencies of channels set to SMALL are output from the subwoofer when YES is selected. Choose the PLUS setting if you want the subwoofer to output the subwoofer to output bass sound continuously or you want deeper bass (the bass frequencies that would normally come out of the front and center speakers are also routed to the subwoofer). If you did not connect a subwoofer choose NO (the bass frequencies are output from other speakers).

I apologize for any typos above. The PDF is protected and would not allow me to simply copy and paste.

My speakers are set to small and the subwoofer is set to YES. I even tried other combinations such as Large/Yes, Large/Plus, and Small Plus. I'll try again tonight to ensure I haven't missed anything. If it turns out that I am indeed setting everything properly in the settings, are there any other things I may check or actions that I can perform to help eliminate causes?

Try it with plus off.

 

[PENG]

Try it with plus off.

John, I doubt it has anything to do with that, his post said "The other night I chose t play some test tones that were 80Hzs down to 50Hzs". So we can reasonably assume he wasn't playing the receiver's build in test tones. The receiver will just play those externally provided tones like music, and as you said before, the crossover filters are not brick walls.

 

[Kip_Dynamite]

There are a couple things to keep in mind. First, by using the 80 hz high pass frequency you are limiting cone motion on the mains, which will reduce modulation distortion on higher frequencies they also reproduce, giving improved mid-bass and mid-range quality (this is exactly what you mentioned with the "tighter feel"). Related, but perhaps marginal, you allocate available amp power more optimally, with slight increase in available headroom. Second, your towers will have gobs more headroom than a smaller speaker above 80 hz, allowing them to achieve louder clean output. Wide dynamic range pays big dividends when it comes to realism and impact.

So don't feel frustrated. Your settings happen to coincide with the most widely recommended approach, and you're experiencing the results. So again, don't be frustrated, you're doing just fine. Your system with towers has more capability than one using smaller speakers. Relish in it, and go crank your favorite tunes!

This helps me as well. Lots of people like a fuller range of listening for a 2-channel mode. I am one who has RP-8000f II that seem to offer not much reason to need a subwoofer. Of course a major caveat, this is while feeding it with a Sansui 2000. I am pretty sure I am hearing your headroom point when I switch between the Sansui and an AVR.
With that being the case I think it should be required that ALL AVRs have a mode that offers 2 channel that guarantees the 80hz crossover is disabled for that mode. I am very curious how much help a large expensive floorstander offers in midrange OVER a similarly driver sized bookshelf. With that 80hz engaged.
SVS offers systems that are 1 sub and 5 of their satellites. I would say that system NEEDS everything but the sub crossed at 80hz

 

[lovinthehd]

This helps me as well. Lots of people like a fuller range of listening for a 2-channel mode. I am one who has RP-8000f II that seem to offer not much reason to need a subwoofer. Of course a major caveat, this is while feeding it with a Sansui 2000. I am pretty sure I am hearing your headroom point when I switch between the Sansui and an AVR.
With that being the case I think it should be required that ALL AVRs have a mode that offers 2 channel that guarantees the 80hz crossover is disabled for that mode. I am very curious how much help a large expensive floorstander offers in midrange OVER a similarly driver sized bookshelf. With that 80hz engaged.
SVS offers systems that are 1 sub and 5 of their satellites. I would say that system NEEDS everything but the sub crossed at 80hz

All my avrs have a pure direct mode.