Out with the Old and In with the New. A New Approach to AV in the Home

[Steve81]

We have to do better!

I agree with your assessment. I find now that practically 100% of my personal listening is done in 2 channel (stereo rig in living room connected to TV / Apple TV, headphones), with my basement rig largely collecting dust. That’s not to say it doesn’t rock, it’s just doesn’t add much of anything for an episode of BBC’s Connections or South Park.

For most people, 2ch is perfectly adequate, and if they want the full experience, that’s what movie theaters are supposed to be for.

 

[MrBoat]

You and I are absolutely correct about this. There is now a dearth of decent two channel receivers, integrated amps out there. Very few have bass management.
This is bad, as it forces people into those receivers, which is really bad. First they have gratuitous complexity, and they are increasingly stuffed with amps. When that happens people feel somehow obligated to use them whether it is really practical for them or not. That detracts from the dictum, that is absolutely correct, that two good channels best any added poorer ones. You and I are lucky that we can build our speakers. But I can tell you the notion that you can use any old poor speaker for surrounds etc. is NOT correct. In my HT room all the speakers are really good ones. That is the way it needs to be.

As it happens my two channel rig is what I'm listening to now, and its excellent.

Your observation that people don't listen to music anymore I think is on target. I do think you are correct that the standard required for music enjoyment is higher than for movies and TV shows, and I think by a good margin.

Being an optimist, I hopeful that either TVs will improve to the point where they can by a high quality versatile front end and then you can connect your active speakers to the TV including the sub. Alternatively we need small simple devices that can just capture the audio from a TVs eARC port and connect to speakers and sub.
I should have pointed out before and will do now, that sound bars are active speakers! It is this simplicity of connection to a TV that makes them such an attractive option.

There should be multiple products that would allow direct active speaker hookup to a TV. Then I think we good get back to a situation where more homes than not had a reasonably respectable audio system. Every child should grow up with an audio system with reasonably correct tonality I believe.

Unfortunately with the growth of HT things have really run off the rails. The system has got geared round these receivers, and most members here are oblivious as to how daft that situation really is. Among other things that has pushed the cost and ease of set up out of reach.

We need to do things much better and with more simple design. I firmly believe that all this room correction is actually added expense and needlessly created problems. For a decent home set up, I am sure that could be dispensed with at saving of costs, that include being forced to buy power amps you don't need.
It is daft that it costs more to buy an unit without amps, then with them. That is just plain nuts, and illustrative how out of whack the industry and whole scene is.

I still like my speakers and amps separate, and visible in the room. I do have active speakers as well but I tend to covet my speakers more than I do my amps. I don't trust newer class D amps to last 20 years inside of a speaker. While I get that this is the age of perpetual upgrades and shopping, when I find a set of speakers I like, the included amps would just add one more point of possible failure to the speakers. While I can typically troubleshoot and repair the electronics, it's the availability of the actual replacement parts concerning either parts becoming obsolete, or only available in manufacturer bulk quantities.

I have no use for television and cut it's cord for good in 2016. I have not missed it and I do good to get thru 5 minutes of a movie I thought I wanted to watch. I started to lose interest during the beginning of the zombie everything phase. By then it had seemed to me that the pool for new movie ideas pretty much dried up, evident by all the remakes and multiple sequels. It just became too predictable for me. I come across a decent one here and there, but nothing worth building a multi-thousand dollar system over.

All I ever needed was low audible distortion, and ample power to that end.

Active speakers tend to fall into the the bit too convenient realm for me. Up there with auto EQ, cell phones and all of the other not-so-smart, smart devices, that end up turning our lives into a big blob of generic, plug'n play poo, and sameness. They are like the spec homes of speakers, all clad with the same vinyl or concrete siding. I drive the back route to work, down Central Ave. most days, where all the rehab'd wood frame classic southern homes are. All painted and constructed differently. It's such a refreshing drive that very few take and it runs right along the interstate. I can actually see the gridlock on the highway when I look down the side streets and I have to laugh at the irony of all those stuck, in a hurry, while I easy motor at 30 mph past them damn near all the way to Ybor City under the canopy of oak lined streets and vibrant architecture of the past.

 

[TLS Guy]

I still like my speakers and amps separate, and visible in the room. I do have active speakers as well but I tend to covet my speakers more than I do my amps. I don't trust newer class D amps to last 20 years inside of a speaker. While I get that this is the age of perpetual upgrades and shopping, when I find a set of speakers I like, the included amps would just add one more point of possible failure to the speakers. While I can typically troubleshoot and repair the electronics, it's the availability of the actual replacement parts concerning either parts becoming obsolete, or only available in manufacturer bulk quantities.

I have no use for television and cut it's cord for good in 2016. I have not missed it and I do good to get thru 5 minutes of a movie I thought I wanted to watch. I started to lose interest during the beginning of the zombie everything phase. By then it had seemed to me that the pool for new movie ideas pretty much dried up, evident by all the remakes and multiple sequels. It just became too predictable for me. I come across a decent one here and there, but nothing worth building a multi-thousand dollar system over.

All I ever needed was low audible distortion, and ample power to that end.

Active speakers tend to fall into the the bit too convenient realm for me. Up there with auto EQ, cell phones and all of the other not-so-smart, smart devices, that end up turning our lives into a big blob of generic, plug'n play poo, and sameness. They are like the spec homes of speakers, all clad with the same vinyl or concrete siding. I drive the back route to work, down Central Ave. most days, where all the rehab'd wood frame classic southern homes are. All painted and constructed differently. It's such a refreshing drive that very few take and it runs right along the interstate. I can actually see the gridlock on the highway when I look down the side streets and I have to laugh at the irony of all those stuck, in a hurry, while I easy motor at 30 mph past them damn near all the way to Ybor City under the canopy of oak lined streets and vibrant architecture of the past.

I think you should be able to make active speakers very reliable. For one thing the amps won't need to be so powerful as power will not be wasted in the crossover. Therefore output devices will be operating at a lower voltage. In addition the amps won't be stressed with amp busting inductive and reactive loads.

Active speakers I think will be reliable and in any event can be designed in a way that amps will be easy to replace and swap. They really do offer the prospect of improved and more consistent performance.

Most passive speakers just are not good enough.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think this focus on in-wall overlooks just how many renters are out there. I think this is a big part of the popularity of soundbars and small vinyl setups.

I have been think about this. Really it is solvable for renters. Practically every rented same has a large screen TV, often not very secure. In a fact they are a known hazard around young children.

Any how today, I gave a really serious listen to our in wall system and gave it a real work out. That included large organs with some very deep bass. The TL with the 10" driver never flinched and reproduces the deepest bass with authority. It was not just good for an in wall, but an excellent audio system of the first rank.

So I think it does contain pointers to the way ahead.

I think the sub could be used as the base of the unit. It is not deep, so it would need wider legs to make it stable. Then the TV bracket would be screwed to the top or back of the sub. The TV bracket would be designed to support the left and right speakers flanking the TV. I think a center would be best avoided, to save expense. An MTM would be a downgrade and three way would be too tall and get the TV to high. So if a center were used it would have to be a coaxial design, which would add cost, and good coaxial drivers add additional expense.

The left and right speakers would require slightly smaller drivers than I use, to make the speakers slimmer and not so heavy. I will have to think about modelling some designs. I an active design like this 50 to 75 watt amps for the two MTM bass mids would be plenty, and 15 to 20 watts for the tweeter would be more than adequate. I think 100 watts would be enough for the sub.
So I think this could be the basis for a high performing cost effective design.

 

[Steve81]

I think you should be able to make active speakers very reliable. For one thing the amps won't need to be so powerful as power will not be wasted in the crossover. Therefore output devices will be operating at a lower voltage. In addition the amps won't be stressed with amp busting inductive and reactive loads.

Active speakers I think will be reliable and in any event can be designed in a way that amps will be easy to replace and swap. They really do offer the prospect of improved and more consistent performance.

Most passive speakers just are not good enough.

I've mentioned this to you before, but I believe we need a new method of connection that combined power and the signal in one convenient package, as we get with speaker cables now, to make active speakers viable. PoE is a perfectly good template to use for this.

 

[ben_]

I think HTIB, but modular (non-proprietary) and of actual quality with good HDMI and good streaming support is where things will end up. They could even be active, just for you TLS. When I read "I think the sub could be used as the base of the unit", I immediately think of the Bose HTIB setups from the 90s. The problem with that wasn't the form factor, it was Bose and their philosophy and design decisions. I could easily see home audio bifurcating between full custom theater installations on the high end, and more package systems (with varying degrees of modularity) like Sonos on the low end, with the current AVR and passive speaker paradigm being a shrinking middle ground. I also think something like power-over-ethernet could offer a way towards "single hookup" devices.

 

[Steve81]

I also think something like power-over-ethernet could offer a way towards "single hookup" devices.

One other engineering thought based on wireless speakers. Connect the speaker via USB to the TV, which charges a battery, which then feeds the speaker. There is a potentially limited run-time, but unless you're listening 24/7, it seems easy enough to engineer your way out of that mess.

 

[ben_]

One other engineering thought based on wireless speakers. Connect the speaker via USB to the TV, which charges a battery, which then feeds the speaker. There is a potentially limited run-time, but unless you're listening 24/7, it seems easy enough to engineer your way out of that mess.

I worry about the lifecycle of the batteries over time. HDMI cable power might be an option too.

HDMI Cable Powers active HDMI Cables

HDMI Cables can now be powered directly from the HDMI Connector, HDMI 2.1b

www.hdmi.org

Either way, it's a solvable problem, if active and wired is the goal.

 

[Steve81]

I worry about the lifecycle of the batteries over time. HDMI cable power might be an option too.

HDMI Cable Powers active HDMI Cables

HDMI Cables can now be powered directly from the HDMI Connector, HDMI 2.1b

www.hdmi.org

Either way, it's a solvable problem, if active and wired is the goal.

Indeed! And it's nice to meet you by the way; today is my first time seeing you around, but I appreciate the quality of your posts!

 

[TLS Guy]

I've mentioned this to you before, but I believe we need a new method of connection that combined power and the signal in one convenient package, as we get with speaker cables now, to make active speakers viable. PoE is a perfectly good template to use for this.

It is and it isn't. I see a lot of problems with this.

First the power is DC and to make a viable power amp you would need an inverter to covert to AC. That would cost you about 40% of the available power. The reason for this is that in all power amps there are a range of voltages required for different stages. So a tapped AC transformer is required to supply voltages from around 90 volts to 5 volts.

At this time PoE can provide up to 90 volts DC but only at 960ma. This is what you would expect considering the diameter of the conductors. That spec. not nearly enough for the power amps. Even class D amps are not 100% efficient. So to keep the current down higher voltages would be required. Then you would get into safety/regulatory issues not only with the cables, and in wall issues etc. But also with other connected devices, which would have to be certified to handle the voltages,, even using a phantom power technology. When you talk about powering an active two channel system you are needing to power at least four power amps for a two channel active system.

In any event in a system I envisage there would need AC power for the TV. So getting 120 volts AC to active speakers would be no problem.

I can't ever see ethernet cable of the diameter required to carry the current for power amps.

 

[lovinthehd]

Wireless is may be. What we really need is an upgrade on the versatility of TVs, so that they have a sub out and can be connected to active speakers with preouts or via HDMI. Alternatively a small unobtrusive device that can be connected to the TV by HDMI and then used as an interface to active speakers. This technology actually exists, as it would be a sound bar less speakers. These generally connect to the TV eARC connector.

We should learn the lesson of the extreme popularity of sound bars. If you go to a Target or Walmart, these units are stacked wall high.

So they are a route to simpler cheaper good audio. I have a feeling people don't have a clue about auto Eq, and if they do buy a receiver I would be far more likely than not it is set up incorrectly.

Guys, things are off the rails big time, and the sales show it. Return to vinyl record players connected to powered or active speakers is another wake up call. They are stating to fly off the shelves I understand.

Talk of rabbit holes, we have been flying down the blind alleys.

I am convinced there is a route back to a reasonable and enjoyable audio in the home at reasonably affordable prices using simpler, and above all, more reliable technology.

I'm now waiting for Lovin to jump in about what he calls my rant against receivers.

I am unrepentant. In my view the AV receiver and all its power amps, has been about the dumbest product of my life time in this whole audio and visual arena. It was just always a very bad idea and destined to be doomed.

LOL you do rant against avrs, not something I invented. I can understand it somewhat but only in what I might desire as a consumer rather than what is offered to me by the market as a consumer. Not quite the same thing, particular consumers don't drive the market in specific gear or price point offerings. Your own system is representative of the tiniest segment of the market (i.e. diy, custom speakers/room, your particular gear, etc). Generally an avr can be quite useful, more so than much 2ch gear (which I think is a mistake myself, but look at the idiocy of the 2ch market generally).

Most of my friends are more than happy with a relatively small/modest display and a soundbar. Few of my friends were ever with me even back in the 2ch only days in terms of gear. Modern consumers do seem to value compact size, portability, convenience of device....and it's hard to blame them. I don't see choosing a pre-pro over an avr to be a particularly valid route for costs/performance involved, and pre-pros are as limited tech wise as an avr minus the amps. On board amps can be useful, or you can just use the economies of scale and use an avr as a pre-pro rather successfully.

Few have the ability or homes to customize an audio setup as you have in any case....

 

[MrBoat]

Most passive speakers just are not good enough.

Passive speakers are what kept me hooked all these years. Turns out that they are 'good enough,' if we quit chasing unicorns all the time. My main speakers I have now, are better than I am, truth be told. 12", 500W, SEOS horns atop 12" Dayton subs as near field monitors. You should see the look on the faces of those I let drive it. Sometimes they hold onto the edge of the desk. You would think you just handed them the keys to a Ferrari. It's absolutely riveting. In this situation, one might be glad of the crossover network putting whatever brakes it does on the output.

That's kind of to my point, though. If one has ample power, the crossover should be insignificant. It's back to that notion of excess headroom being a good place to start. I never had to consider the parasitic draw of the crossover network before. I don't want just the power I need. I want double, due to the nature of the technology itself. Is why I have an antiquated 120-140 watt AVR vs. the 50-90watt 2-channel amp that the marketers and efficiency hounds think I should have.

I should remember to be fair though. I do realize my concerns are a bit more custom, and perhaps odd compared to what the mass market can afford to back, and that we have to pay to play like that. It's not until I get snagged into their hook in the large print, and then disappointed by the the time I get to the fine, that I get a little put off by wasting my time researching the product in the first place. It's like. . ."ha ha. . .made you look!"

Initially, I had figured to just get by with the AVR and save up for a more legacy type 2-channel amp with more power, but I got hooked into the desire for bass management that included hi/low pass capability. The chunky Denon from yesteryear is more to size/weight and robustness that I would be typically looking for in a 2-channel amp and I think the 3805 looks the part, even though it's a 7 channel receiver.

I should be happy, and I am when I think about it because I have a total of $75 into two of these receivers and have been using them steady since 2017, so in essence, I won big. I guess what I really need is a 3rd one to play with my break down setups. It's not too heavy if I am not having to slide it into some rack near the floor. I may break the other one out tonight and try it with the table top sessions I set up from time-to-time to play my smaller speakers with, instead of the underpowered Chi-fi stuff.

 

[Bucknekked]

Passive speakers are what kept me hooked all these years. Turns out that they are 'good enough,' if we quit chasing unicorns all the time. My main speakers I have now, are better than I am, truth be told. 12", 500W, SEOS horns atop 12" Dayton subs as near field monitors. You should see the look on the faces of those I let drive it. Sometimes they hold onto the edge of the desk. You would think you just handed them the keys to a Ferrari. It's absolutely riveting. In this situation, one might be glad of the crossover network putting whatever brakes it does on the output.

That's kind of to my point, though. If one has ample power, the crossover should be insignificant. It's back to that notion of excess headroom being a good place to start. I never had to consider the parasitic draw of the crossover network before. I don't want just the power I need. I want double, due to the nature of the technology itself. Is why I have an antiquated 120-140 watt AVR vs. the 50-90watt 2-channel amp that the marketers and efficiency hounds think I should have.

I should remember to be fair though. I do realize my concerns are a bit more custom, and perhaps odd compared to what the mass market can afford to back, and that we have to pay to play like that. It's not until I get snagged into their hook in the large print, and then disappointed by the the time I get to the fine, that I get a little put off by wasting my time researching the product in the first place. It's like. . ."ha ha. . .made you look!"

Initially, I had figured to just get by with the AVR and save up for a more legacy type 2-channel amp with more power, but I got hooked into the desire for bass management that included hi/low pass capability. The chunky Denon from yesteryear is more to size/weight and robustness that I would be typically looking for in a 2-channel amp and I think the 3805 looks the part, even though it's a 7 channel receiver.

I should be happy, and I am when I think about it because I have a total of $75 into two of these receivers and have been using them steady since 2017, so in essence, I won big. I guess what I really need is a 3rd one to play with my break down setups. It's not too heavy if I am not having to slide it into some rack near the floor. I may break the other one out tonight and try it with the table top sessions I set up from time-to-time to play my smaller speakers with, instead of the underpowered Chi-fi stuff.

Quit chasing unicorns all the time and a lot of problems cease to be problems. That will be today's quote of the day.
I wrote a really nice reply but realized it all comes down to simple pleasures, so I erased it. This is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby. One that brings joy to our ears and souls. The constant focus on hardware and upgrades takes a lot of the joy out of our primary purpose for having it. Enjoy the music. Enjoy the miracle of sound that you can recreate in your home. Leave the unicorns alone

 

[MrBoat]

Quit chasing unicorns all the time and a lot of problems cease to be problems. That will be today's quote of the day.
I wrote a really nice reply but realized it all comes down to simple pleasures, so I erased it. This is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby. One that brings joy to our ears and souls. The constant focus on hardware and upgrades takes a lot of the joy out of our primary purpose for having it. Enjoy the music. Enjoy the miracle of sound that you can recreate in your home. Leave the unicorns alone

The other day, I had the tabletop system going with the Bagby Continuum speakers and a small sub. I started to sit down to listen but had a few little chores to do first. When I was standing at the kitchen sink, I noticed the music sounded great. When I was walking elsewhere about the house, I noticed the whole place sounded great, axis be damned. The whole living area was filled with good music. The quality came from low distortion, more than any one thing. It reminded me of where I came from when even a portable radio was satisfactory to listen to. I stepped back a little. It doesn't always have to be so right. It just has to be not awful sometimes.

Sometimes, I take for granted just how good what I have collected actually is, and how far speakers and such have come since the olden days.

 

[Verdinut]

Of course the multi-channel system can bring a lot of enjoyment when it’s properly designed and setup. But it requires more knowledge from the installer, and it’s implementation is definitely more complex and more time consuming, than that required for a stereo system.

I have a seven channel system which I built and improved with time, but I haven’t reached complete satisfaction as yet. I haven’t had the time to adjust it to my liking, but it should happen in a near future. Also, with the years, my hearing acuity has decreased and I can’t enjoy listening to music at the same level as before.

I am getting older, 83 next month. Living alone in an apartment, not in the near future but eventually, I will have to move to a senior residence. Then, I will have to get rid of my big speaker cabinets, surround receiver and so on. I will probably replace the QSC amplifiers with the more compact, more efficient Class D amps, if I can find a decent stereo receiver with preouts. On the other hand, I have an excellent Hitachi HCA-8300 preamp which could be used, if I have access to HDMI converters. Also, if accurate and affordable powered monitors are available, it might be the time to switch to them then.

Before 2001, I only had stereo equipment which I enjoyed pretty much. I shall not be disappointed by eventually getting back to a 2 channel setup when the time arrives.

 

[Bucknekked]

Of course the multi-channel system can bring a lot of enjoyment when it’s properly designed and setup. But it requires more knowledge from the installer, and it’s implementation is definitely more complex and more time consuming, than that required for a stereo system.

I have a seven channel system which I built and improved with time, but I haven’t reached complete satisfaction as yet. I haven’t had the time to adjust it to my liking, but it should happen in a near future. Also, with the years, my hearing acuity has decreased and I can’t enjoy listening to music at the same level as before.

I am getting older, 83 next month. Living alone in an apartment, not in the near future but eventually, I will have to move to a senior residence. Then, I will have to get rid of my big speaker cabinets, surround receiver and so on. I will probably replace the QSC amplifiers with the more compact, more efficient Class D amps, if I can find a decent stereo receiver with preouts. On the other hand, I have an excellent Hitachi HCA-8300 preamp which could be used, if I have access to HDMI converters. Also, if accurate and affordable powered monitors are available, it might be the time to switch to them then.

Before 2001, I only had stereo equipment which I enjoyed pretty much. I shall not be disappointed by eventually getting back to a 2 channel setup when the time arrives.

Add to your well managed system the fact that you have a love of your music. If memory serves me correctly, you have a love of classical music and the composer Verdi in particular. Having music that you love and can sit and enjoy for as long as you wish is a blessing. I purchased and built most of my own classical music selections based on your recommendations. You didn't have to take the time to carefully select compositions for a classic's newb: but you did. The care of the selections showed up in my music room and I am learning, albeit slowly, to love those pieces. These weren't just a random top 10 classics list: these were selections you made thinking of the newb down in the desert and how they might be received. I appreciate that and it is one of the great aspects of our hobby: sharing the music we care for and enjoy. Its why we go to all the trouble of having music systems. I fear our hobbyists forget that on a far to regular basis. Enjoy. Keep sharing.

 

[MrBoat]

How about a mix of old and new? That's where I end up most of the time. Hard to believe that receivers that were once over $1k 20 years ago can be found barely used still with that new receiver smell. To me, this old receiver looks as good as any power amp, and the anodized parts and decals look the part. Add to that there being no mechanical pots to go bad and the choice for me seems rather undeniable, not to mention the bypass modes included with most of these.

This Denon 3805 I got from a friend for $75, which ends up being cheaper than some the most powerful Chi-fi amps. He told me he bought it in the early years of this century and the novelty of HT fell off for him rather quickly so this item sat in a rack for 10 years unused until they shelved it to make room for a new TV and sound bar. He tried to give it to me for free just to free up space and I insisted on actually giving him money for it. It has it's original box even.

Figured I would dust it and my JBLs thoroughly inside and out and stretch it out a little with the table top sessions. The "new" is the Aiyima pre-amp connected so my son can bluetooth to it and I have Alexa hooked up to it as well. No HDMI and since I could care less about TV or video, this thing still has a lot of useful options even for 2-channel listening. I have two of these receivers, with one that was gifted to me free of charge because he has 4 since he gets a new AVR whenever new features come out or about every 5 years regardless.

 

[Bobby Bass]

How about a mix of old and new? That's where I end up most of the time. Hard to believe that receivers that were once over $1k 20 years ago can be found barely used still with that new receiver smell. To me, this old receiver looks as good as any power amp, and the anodized parts and decals look the part. Add to that there being no mechanical pots to go bad and the choice for me seems rather undeniable, not to mention the bypass modes included with most of these.

This Denon 3805 I got from a friend for $75, which ends up being cheaper than some the most powerful Chi-fi amps. He told me he bought it in the early years of this century and the novelty of HT fell off for him rather quickly so this item sat in a rack for 10 years unused until they shelved it to make room for a new TV and sound bar. He tried to give it to me for free just to free up space and I insisted on actually giving him money for it. It has it's original box even.

Figured I would dust it and my JBLs thoroughly inside and out and stretch it out a little with the table top sessions. The "new" is the Aiyima pre-amp connected so my son can bluetooth to it and I have Alexa hooked up to it as well. No HDMI and since I could care less about TV or video, this thing still has a lot of useful options even for 2-channel listening. I have two of these receivers, with one that was gifted to me free of charge because he has 4 since he gets a new AVR whenever new features come out or about every 5 years regardless.

A blast from my past! I used that same AVR for years in my HT setup. Top of the Denon line back in 2007. Mine Still works fine but sitting in the closet since I moved to a 2 channel setup with a separate amp and preamp. Waiting for the day when it’s needed by me again or by a friend. Mixing Old and new is an another great part of this hobby. Thanks for sharing The journey continues!

 

[MrBoat]

A blast from my past! I used that same AVR for years in my HT setup. Top of the Denon line back in 2007. Mine Still works fine but sitting in the closet since I moved to a 2 channel setup with a separate amp and preamp. Waiting for the day when it’s needed by me again or by a friend. Mixing Old and new is an another great part of this hobby. Thanks for sharing The journey continues!

I didn't expect something so old to hold up for as long as it has. The one that my Desktop system is hooked up to is on probably 12hrs/day since the end of 2016. The twin to it is the one on the table and they drive just about anything I would ever have. These were just to be temporary budget power until I saved for a better, 2 channel amp. These are still surprisingly quiet at idle. Now that newer affordable amps tend to be so underwhelming, I am glad I scored these.

Knowing what I know now, and being somewhat spoiled with the amount of features these have, I would likely buy another used AVR even for just 2.1 use. It helps that they have been well cared for and still look fresh.

 

[Bobby Bass]

Wow you got two of them great deals! I’ve started to buy vintage or used equipment on eBay and so far so good. The latest used buy is a pair of open-box in-wall speakers and I’m watching a couple of amps for a small 2 channel system for the master bath. My wife thinks I’m crazy but it takes all my time lol