BiWire Speaker Cable help needed

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Any preference between the 2 I posted?
No, just the cheaper one.

However I never buy pre-terminated speaker cable. I buy it by the foot and terminate it myself.

I have 650' of 10 AWG speaker cable in my AV room, and if I did not get the best price by the foot I would be broke.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I have never bought pre-made speaker cables, just bare wire ends and cut to length and sometimes terminate it myself with bananas for convenience.
 
B

BFL

Audioholic
Well, I ordered both the Canare and Belden from the links I posted. They will be here Saturday and Sunday. I will do some comparisons to my current cables and report back. I will ask my wife for her opinion as well. Of course it's all subjective, but will be curious to see if there is a noticeable difference.

I appreciate everyone giving some input. I have been out of the game and status quo for the last 20+ years only doing avr and TV upgrades.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Well, I ordered both the Canare and Belden from the links I posted. They will be here Saturday and Sunday. I will do some comparisons to my current cables and report back. I will ask my wife for her opinion as well. Of course it's all subjective, but will be curious to see if there is a noticeable difference.

I appreciate everyone giving some input. I have been out of the game and status quo for the last 20+ years only doing avr and TV upgrades.
How in the "H" do you compare cables"? Wire is wire. One electron bumps into the next and pushes it on. So the only factor is resistance and that depends on the diameter and length of the cable and NOTHING else. So a larger diameter of copper the lower the resistance and the longer the cable the higher the resistance. So the longer the cable, the larger the diameter the core needs to be. There is NO more to it than that. The rest is voodoo, and snake oil salesmen putting on a hoax for the gullible. Get yourself out of the ranks of the gullible. Your banker will thank you.
 
B

BFL

Audioholic
How in the "H" do you compare cables"? Wire is wire. One electron bumps into the next and pushes it on. So the only factor is resistance and that depends on the diameter and length of the cable and NOTHING else. So a larger diameter of copper the lower the resistance and the longer the cable the higher the resistance. So the longer the cable, the larger the diameter the core needs to be. There is NO more to it than that. The rest is voodoo, and snake oil salesmen putting on a hoax for the gullible. Get yourself out of the ranks of the gullible. Your banker will thank you.
audible comparison....not measuring comparison...i am curious if i hear a difference from what i currently have to what i ordered.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Apparently, you did not read the Roger Russel link mentioned about 100 times here or listen to the advice given by anyone. Is there a point to asking for advice you are not going to take?

I currently use the 4S11 from bluejeans because I like their welded connections (I leave them unterminated on one end so I can terminate those myself). I have used 10AWG OFC, I have use 14AWG OFC. Drumroll....No difference in sound. At 8 ft with an 8 Ohm load, they will perform exactly the same.
 
B

BFL

Audioholic
Apparently, you did not read the Roger Russel link mentioned about 100 times here or listen to the advice given by anyone. Is there a point to asking for advice you are not going to take?

I currently use the 4S11 from bluejeans because I like their welded connections (I leave them unterminated on one end so I can terminate those myself). I have used 10AWG OFC, I have use 14AWG OFC. Drumroll....No difference in sound. At 8 ft with an 8 Ohm load, they will perform exactly the same.
I see many threads on many forums that i have looked at in the last 24 hours after the suggestions of folks in my thread and people are claiming both not hearing any difference and others are claiming they do hear a difference between brands. My situation is a little different than most for having bought the MIT cables even though it was 2 decades ago, so i am giving the brands that were highly recommend a try. What is wrong with wanting to see if they make an audible difference compared to my MITs? Dont forget my MITs have that box inline making some type of alteration to the signal. You are making it sound like i will not hear a difference which may be the case, but i wont know til i try a cable without having that box inline.

And as far as ordering both brands, one has white shielding and one is black and the wife wants to see both to decide...that is more of a cosmetic choice not audible...sorry didnt clarify about that part...but what i said is still valid thinking there may be a difference in sound between the MIT with the box to the 4s11 without.
 
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j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
When it comes to wire, it isn't rocket science. When you read a website, it is usually immediate that you can tell a site that is speaking OPINON vs. actual testing. Many of us have literally tried what you are stating and are simply trying to save you the trouble. No harm in you doing it for yourself, because I did too, but I am telling you what myself and many others here have already found out both through research and real world comparisons.

There is literally a whole industry in audio based on trying to fool people with marketing BS into buying products they cannot back up or offer a single shred of proof their claims are valid. That inline box is about as good of an example as you can find.

If you are going to do the test, have someone else there who can swap the cables and then let you listen without you knowing which wires you are listening to. If you don't do this, then it is not an objective comparison. Seeing the wires in question will influence your opinion, something your ears can't do anything about. Believing you will hear a difference is enough to sway what you think you hear.
 
B

BFL

Audioholic
When it comes to wire, it isn't rocket science. When you read a website, it is usually immediate that you can tell a site that is speaking OPINON vs. actual testing. Many of us have literally tried what you are stating and are simply trying to save you the trouble. No harm in you doing it for yourself, because I did too, but I am telling you what myself and many others here have already found out both through research and real world comparisons.

There is literally a whole industry in audio based on trying to fool people with marketing BS into buying products they cannot back up or offer a single shred of proof their claims are valid. That inline box is about as good of an example as you can find.

If you are going to do the test, have someone else there who can swap the cables and then let you listen without you knowing which wires you are listening to. If you don't do this, then it is not an objective comparison. Seeing the wires in question will influence your opinion, something your ears can't do anything about. Believing you will hear a difference is enough to sway what you think you hear.
I agree 100% and good idea about having someone else swap the cables...sorry wasnt clear, and i get it is was a waist of money to buy the MITs, but that is in the past and i can only move forward and see if the ones i ordered improve the sound not having that box on it for whatever that box does. Not sure if there is a lifespan on speaker wires, but the MITS are 20 to 22 years old i believe. I can tell u 100% my wife doesnt like the MIT cables with the box..too intrusive.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
audible comparison....not measuring comparison...i am curious if i hear a difference from what i currently have to what i ordered.
You will "hear" a difference and it's called selection bias. Every professional statistician knows you must take vigorous steps to avoid selection bias in any comparative study you organize.
So your plan has zero merit, and has zero significance before you begin.

That is the long way of saying: - "waste of time"!
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
"Audiophilia Nervosa":D One of the funniest things I've ever read, thank you @TLS Guy. I also laughed at the "Oracle Technology" written on that Shotgun box. They may as well have written "We Saw You Coming" on the damn thing.:D
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Most jacketed wire won't have an issue over that many years assuming a typical home environment, not a wet/corrosive/etc... condition. Not sure what is in those boxes (usually batteries), but that certainly is likely to have failed by now given that they don't "support" them anymore.

In the Roger Russel article, it notes that capacitance can cause a difference in sound (highs will roll off) because there is actually an issue with the wired not being able to support the load which affects the signal. This is a real, measurable effect, for which the answer is to use the correct AWG wire for the length and load. Those wires with batteries I think were messing with the capacitance in order to influence the sound, but their goal was basically to add some "whizz bang" feature that would sell some cables for way too much money.

For sure, I do not want to say not to find out for yourself. Just saying temper expectations and try to go into it not thinking it will go one way or the other.
 
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B

BFL

Audioholic
You will "hear" a difference and it's called selection bias. Every professional statistician knows you must take vigorous steps to avoid selection bias in any comparative study you organize.
So your plan has zero merit, and has zero significance before you begin.

That is the long way of saying: - "waste of time"!
Do you have any idea what components make up the Shotgun Box? You say they are a scam and they may be, which leads me to believe its possible they are doing the opposite of mfg claims and its hindering the performance by introducing higher resistance or something else in a negative way? How would i know if thats the case unless i try another cable in its place. I do not have any of the Monoprice cable left from doing my surrounds so i needed to order cable anyway, why not get what other members are suggesting to get and listen to it?
 
B

BFL

Audioholic
Most jacketed wire won't have an issue over that many years assuming a typical home environment, not a wet/corrosive/etc... condition. Not sure what is in those boxes (usually batteries), but that certainly is likely to have failed by now given that they don't "support" them anymore.

In the Roger Russel article, it notes that capacitance can cause a difference in sound (highs will roll off) because there is actually an issue with the wired not being able to support the load. This is a real effect, for which the answer is to use the correct AWG wire for the length and load. Those wires with batteries I think were messing with the capacitance in order to influence the sound, but their goal was basically to add some "whizz bang" feature that would sell some cables for way too much money.
yes, exactly..what you guys are telling me makes sense, i am listening and this is why i am replacing my MITs with what was suggested to me in this thread. I too have no clue what is in the box, but i do feel they could be hindering sound quality and is why i have ordered the other cables so i can see if i hear a difference in a good way. The other thing that could happen is i hear no difference. Far as i know nothing is in the box...
 
B

BFL

Audioholic
"Audiophilia Nervosa":D One of the funniest things I've ever read, thank you @TLS Guy. I also laughed at the "Oracle Technology" written on that Shotgun box. They may as well have written "We Saw You Coming" on the damn thing.:D
Well, there were not as many resources for info on this 20+ years ago when i bought them. That goes with a lot of Hifi products...who is sincere with the reviews and who are giving reviews but are compensated somehow and that isnt made public.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I think Audioholics has been around about that long :) I've been on here 18yrs. Those were different times though, I agree. I think some of this snake oil is part of why this site came about.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
Well, there were not as many resources for info on this 20+ years ago when i bought them. That goes with a lot of Hifi products...who is sincere with the reviews and who are giving reviews but are compensated somehow and that isnt made public.
I didn't intend to insult you personally and have in the past invested in cables that were far too expensive and offered no audible benefits myself. Can I interest you in a tub full of old Monster Cables?;)
 
B

BFL

Audioholic
I think Audioholics has been around about that long :) I've been on here 18yrs. Those were different times though, I agree. I think some of this snake oil is part of why this site came about.
Back then i think HT magazine and Stereophile mag were my resources as well as local sales people. As mentioned, when u see reviews in favor of a product, not always easy to know that it was cause they are rewarded in some way from the mfg. Obviously as years have past since this purchase of the MITs more info has come to light of what is bs and what works is what i am finding out.
 
B

BFL

Audioholic
I didn't intend to insult you personally and have in the past invested in cables that were far too expensive and offered no audible benefits myself. Can I interest you in a tub full of old Monster Cables?;)
funny, i donated mine to Goodwill!!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
funny, i donated mine to Goodwill!!
Essentially the only spec. that matters for speaker cable is the resistance per foot. The longer the cable, and the lower the impedance of the speaker, then the lower resistance per foot is required.

Wire Size​
2 ohm load​
4 ohm load​
6 ohm load​
8 ohm load​
22 AWG​
3 feet max​
6 feet max​
9 feet max​
12 feet max​
20 AWG​
5 feet max​
10 feet max​
15 feet max​
20 feet max​
18 AWG​
8 feet max​
16 feet max​
24 feet max​
32 feet max​
16 AWG​
12 feet max​
24 feet max​
36 feet max​
48 feet max​
14 AWG​
20 feet max​
40 feet max​
60 feet**​
80 feet**​
12 AWG​
30 feet max​
60 feet**​
90 feet**​
120 feet**​
10 AWG​
50 feet max​
100 feet**​
150 feet**​
200 feet**​

The above table tells you all you need to know about speaker cables.

Too high a capacitance is only occasionally an issue. This can reduce HF. The thing is though, this has only ever been observed in exotic high priced audiophool cables, where the designers have used exotic materials with the wrong dielectric constant. That will not be an issue for any of the cables we have recommended here.

I did look at information on the Shot Gun box. Nowhere is there any coherent explanation of its design or function. Everything written about it is all in Audiophool gobbledygook, otherwise known as codswallop.
 
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