Need help configuring audio for large Atmos theater

R

RuffTimo

Enthusiast
Guru lol like a swamy ? :D
Well hopefully he knows what he’s doing because op has already chosen him to do everything, except for installation lol ..
Why lol? Are those not separate skill sets, planning and installation? Help me do it right. I live in Utah, not the most populous place, so hiring an expert on HT layout elsewhere made sense to me, while having my AV installer for my whole house wire everything up, then having another local expert I’ve found come in and balance and match all the speaker levels and tonality (or something like that).

Bad plan? Only hire someone that can do all of the above?
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
Why lol? Are those not separate skill sets, planning and installation? Help me do it right. I live in Utah, not the most populous place, so hiring an expert on HT layout elsewhere made sense to me, while having my AV installer for my whole house wire everything up, then having another local expert I’ve found come in and balance and match all the speaker levels and tonality (or something like that).

Bad plan? Only hire someone that can do all of the above?
I didn’t say it was a bad idea, I just was making a joke of the word guru lol
As long as he had had clients with plenty of good reviews, you should be fine.?
I’d expect builds similar to his channel which I haven’t watched yet ? Are those his builds ?

ask this guy mono-bloc (how to research the guy)?
knows more about said subject , I’ve only ever set my own gear up I don’t have talents for hanging Atmos speakers /in walls etc .construction..
Really if your intending to spend that sort of money, employ a professional home theatre installer. And check out there work before you hire them.
Just because you have a 100 grand to spend, doesn't insure the perfect job. There's plenty of monkeys out there. Who will over charge you for crap products, simply because you don't know any better.
These people in OZ, are specialist installers, and 100 grand installs are simply run of the mill. https://lenwallisaudio.com/custom-solutions/home-theatre/
 
mono-bloc

mono-bloc

Full Audioholic
I've just read your thread again, and from what I gather you have zero knowledge [and I don't wish to be rude ] of audio, home theatre, nore do you have any gear. i think you should slow down, and consider what your doing, In short start small, A pair of floor standing speakers and a entry level AVR, together with a CD player, or a Streamer if that's your bag. And learn by doing. Most people start that way, and you learn and up-date as you go. Ask yourself, would you pass a driving test, and then go shopping for a Porsche. It simply doesn't make sense.

Firstly do a bit of research, read audio reviews, learn what products are available and at what price range your interested in. Find yourself a few audio stores. Leave box sellers like Best Buy alone. Have a talk to people in the retail audio game , and see what they suggest as a starter..

And remember all the above will only cost you time and you still have your cash in your pocket, but you have gained a bit of knowledge along the way.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
A guru is an influential teacher or a popular expert, so certainly anyone with enough AV knowledge could be called a guru. It's obviously a self-chosen moniker meant to be memorable for marketing terms, but also is quite applicable to the situation. Certainly when it comes to front projection, in many areas I would be considered a 'guru' since I have over twenty years of experience working with front projection and care about the subject matter.

Some of my biggest considerations in a room like the OP is dealing with are to ensure that you build in pathways to add/remove/adjust things in the future. In my theater with relatively low 8-foot ceilings, I will be putting in a soffit around the space which will allow for cabling access to the walls and ceilings throughout the entire theater space at any point in the future as I need it. Something like a soffit provides a nifty way to add some nice indirect lighting to a theater, while adding the capability of adding functionality in the future as needed.

A space for the audio components needs to be decided upon up front and should not be within the theater space itself. So, plan on all equipment NOT being in the room and just using a quality universal remote control. Plan the cabling runs so that additional wiring can be added/removed in the future as need be. This is especially true for the HDMI cable which we have seen jump from a sub 3Gb/s connection to a 48Gb/s connection in the last decade or so. Cables will change, and you want to be on the front of that change, or at least be able to adopt to the change as it comes along.

If you build a room that can accommodate change, then you don't have to build a room that is beyond what it needs to be today. Maybe the goal is that $500,000 Ferrari room, but if the budget is $50K or whatever, then you have to build the room that the budget allows, and you shouldn't overspend for things you may not actually need or afford at this time. A proper 7.1.4 setup is a good starting point, but your budget does afford you to get into a 9.2.6 system (or better) without it being a huge strain to the budget.

I would personally be hard pressed not to do an acoustically transparent screen in such a room, which adds some planning. Especially if there is a false wall being added to the setup. As well, you have to consider screen size and a projector up front so you're prepared for that singular significant hit. Something like a JVC RS4100 may set you back $25,000, but may well be the appropriate projector for that space. Add a decent AT screen to the setup and you may be in $30,000 on the video portion by itself.

Anthem certainly has some very solid gear that makes a lot of sense for the money. You quickly get into the uber expensive when you look at brands like Trinnov that can run well over $15,000 for just the audio processing. That's not unreasonable if that's your goal and direction, but it may be more than you want to address for this part of your home. Especially when you really will want to have proper acoustical treatments in the space along with very solid speakers throughout. So, stepping down to a Anthem from a Trinnov is a huge price difference, but not necessarily a huge quality difference. An MRX 1140 from Anthem will give you 15 channels of processing power at $4,200. Not bad at all. The question would be that if something like the AVM 90 (pre-pro only) at $7,500 would make more sense or not and if that's money well spent. Or if it is worth upping the budget for something like that.

NOTE: I find that home theater lighting is one of the MOST significantly screwed up things that people get wrong. This is often addressed by good home theater companies, but it is often VERY late in the game that it is brought up.

MINIMUM: Each row of seating needs a row of directional (spotlights) placed above them. Each row needs to be on a dedicated dimmer. This way lighting towards the back of the room can be brought up 'brighter' while middle or front rows can be off or dimmer. It allows for movement in the room, without flooding the room with lighting and seriously impacting the on-screen image. There also needs to be about TWICE as many lights in a theater as a normal family room. Flood lights should be in the space for general entry/exit from the room and to provide plenty of lighting for cleaning and working on the room when those lights are brought up to full power. Dimming 20 lights is easy. Adding more lights when you NEED 20 lights sucks to deal with. So, make sure there is plenty of BRIGHT lighting in the room to deal with the dark carpet, dark walls, and dark ceiling. For God's sake! It is a theater, don't dress it up like another family room. Dark, dark, dark, dark, dark!!!

I don't go overly deep into the speaker well. There are tons of excellent speakers at tons of price points. But, it is rather easy to drop $10,000 a speaker and be convinced that is the right thing to do. I'm a fan of the Meridian DSP8000 speakers... their current XE model is $125,000 a pair. So, yeah, quick and easy to blow budget.
 
}Fear_Inoculum{

}Fear_Inoculum{

Senior Audioholic
There are so many options to go with in a room that size TS, that it's almost overwhelming. ~8000+ cubic feet is a lot of space to fill with sound and video.

From the looks of the floor plan, 3 rows of tiered seating with 11' high ceiling for the front of the space. A ~50k budget seems like a lot for the average person, but for a space that size I'm inclined to say that it'll just barely be enough, if it even will be.

My space is ~1/6 th that, and I've spent roughly half that amount to make it (IMO) awesome. And I wouldn't consider my equipment to be anything too special. Nice for sure. But not 'top end'.

For 17 channels, you're looking at an AVP as no AVR currently on the market (as far as I know) supports more than 15 channels. Storm, Trinnov, Theta etc are all high end AVP that will fit the bill of what you're looking for, but they'll cost you a premium price (1/4 to 1/3 your total budget).

Heck, 4 subwoofers that will fill that space with the kind of bass I assume you want, are going to cost you probably at least 1/5~1/4 of your budget.

DIY is certainly an option, but I sure wouldnt want to attempt it myself on a project like this. IMO consider some gently used equipment from the 2nd hand market. A lot of manufacturers have transferable warranties.

Good luck, and let us know how it progresses.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
For 3 rows of seats, I think 9.1.6 (15CH) would work - one set of Surrounds for each of the 3 rows. Just don’t buy tiny speakers for surrounds. :D

I have 1 row of “seats” and I have a 5.1.4 for my 26’ x 22’ x 14’ ceiling HT room. My 2 surround bed speakers are also the RBH SX-T2/R towers. :D
 
R

RuffTimo

Enthusiast
For 3 rows of seats, I think 9.1.6 (15CH) would work - one set of Surrounds for each of the 3 rows. Just don’t buy tiny speakers for surrounds. :D

I have 1 row of “seats” and I have a 5.1.4 for my 26’ x 22’ x 14’ ceiling HT room. My 2 surround bed speakers are also the RBH SX-T2/R towers. :D
Thanks for the advice. That makes sense, I hear that above 15 channels and there’s a significant price jump in processing and amplification. We may be stuck though, as we’ve just redesigned things so we have four rows, so we’ll need a lot of speakers to have full Atmos coverage. Not sure how many yet, but I’d think at least 15. And they won’t be tiny…
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
For 3 rows of seats, I think 9.1.6 (15CH) would work - one set of Surrounds for each of the 3 rows. Just don’t buy tiny speakers for surrounds. :D

I have 1 row of “seats” and I have a 5.1.4 for my 26’ x 22’ x 14’ ceiling HT room. My 2 surround bed speakers are also the RBH SX-T2/R towers. :D
Isn’t anything over 15 channels upmixed ? What’s the max Atmos supports discreet , sounds like a gargantuan task filling a room that size is like a home imax theater almost. o_O
 
R

RuffTimo

Enthusiast
There are so many options to go with in a room that size TS, that it's almost overwhelming. ~8000+ cubic feet is a lot of space to fill with sound and video.

From the looks of the floor plan, 3 rows of tiered seating with 11' high ceiling for the front of the space. A ~50k budget seems like a lot for the average person, but for a space that size I'm inclined to say that it'll just barely be enough, if it even will be.

My space is ~1/6 th that, and I've spent roughly half that amount to make it (IMO) awesome. And I wouldn't consider my equipment to be anything too special. Nice for sure. But not 'top end'.

For 17 channels, you're looking at an AVP as no AVR currently on the market (as far as I know) supports more than 15 channels. Storm, Trinnov, Theta etc are all high end AVP that will fit the bill of what you're looking for, but they'll cost you a premium price (1/4 to 1/3 your total budget).

Heck, 4 subwoofers that will fill that space with the kind of bass I assume you want, are going to cost you probably at least 1/5~1/4 of your budget.

DIY is certainly an option, but I sure wouldnt want to attempt it myself on a project like this. IMO consider some gently used equipment from the 2nd hand market. A lot of manufacturers have transferable warranties.

Good luck, and let us know how it progresses.
Terrific advice from a great perspective. I do have some upward flexibility on budget, but not too much. I’m now feeling like I need to spend time shopping second-hand, as you suggest, to make it all work. Thanks for validating that as a viable option. One Thai g that’s loud and clear from these responses: it’s a very big room and it will not be a simple task to fill it with sound. I’m glad I’ve hired a guy to help me with the plan, so far he’s been incredible to work with.
 
R

RuffTimo

Enthusiast
Met with the architect today and made some changes based on the great advice we’ve been given… big changes are:
  • four rows instead of three
  • splitting the stairs and centering the seating
  • increasing bottom row ceiling height to 13’
  • moving the entrance to the side
  • adding a full equipment alley way at the back
  • Adding a soffit all around the room for future access/canling
Here’s the redline version:

9AE36631-FE04-4592-BFD2-1F738CD970F0.jpeg

We’re almost ready for speaker placement.
 
R

RuffTimo

Enthusiast
A guru is an influential teacher or a popular expert, so certainly anyone with enough AV knowledge could be called a guru. It's obviously a self-chosen moniker meant to be memorable for marketing terms, but also is quite applicable to the situation. Certainly when it comes to front projection, in many areas I would be considered a 'guru' since I have over twenty years of experience working with front projection and care about the subject matter.

Some of my biggest considerations in a room like the OP is dealing with are to ensure that you build in pathways to add/remove/adjust things in the future. In my theater with relatively low 8-foot ceilings, I will be putting in a soffit around the space which will allow for cabling access to the walls and ceilings throughout the entire theater space at any point in the future as I need it. Something like a soffit provides a nifty way to add some nice indirect lighting to a theater, while adding the capability of adding functionality in the future as needed.

A space for the audio components needs to be decided upon up front and should not be within the theater space itself. So, plan on all equipment NOT being in the room and just using a quality universal remote control. Plan the cabling runs so that additional wiring can be added/removed in the future as need be. This is especially true for the HDMI cable which we have seen jump from a sub 3Gb/s connection to a 48Gb/s connection in the last decade or so. Cables will change, and you want to be on the front of that change, or at least be able to adopt to the change as it comes along.

If you build a room that can accommodate change, then you don't have to build a room that is beyond what it needs to be today. Maybe the goal is that $500,000 Ferrari room, but if the budget is $50K or whatever, then you have to build the room that the budget allows, and you shouldn't overspend for things you may not actually need or afford at this time. A proper 7.1.4 setup is a good starting point, but your budget does afford you to get into a 9.2.6 system (or better) without it being a huge strain to the budget.

I would personally be hard pressed not to do an acoustically transparent screen in such a room, which adds some planning. Especially if there is a false wall being added to the setup. As well, you have to consider screen size and a projector up front so you're prepared for that singular significant hit. Something like a JVC RS4100 may set you back $25,000, but may well be the appropriate projector for that space. Add a decent AT screen to the setup and you may be in $30,000 on the video portion by itself.

Anthem certainly has some very solid gear that makes a lot of sense for the money. You quickly get into the uber expensive when you look at brands like Trinnov that can run well over $15,000 for just the audio processing. That's not unreasonable if that's your goal and direction, but it may be more than you want to address for this part of your home. Especially when you really will want to have proper acoustical treatments in the space along with very solid speakers throughout. So, stepping down to a Anthem from a Trinnov is a huge price difference, but not necessarily a huge quality difference. An MRX 1140 from Anthem will give you 15 channels of processing power at $4,200. Not bad at all. The question would be that if something like the AVM 90 (pre-pro only) at $7,500 would make more sense or not and if that's money well spent. Or if it is worth upping the budget for something like that.

NOTE: I find that home theater lighting is one of the MOST significantly screwed up things that people get wrong. This is often addressed by good home theater companies, but it is often VERY late in the game that it is brought up.

MINIMUM: Each row of seating needs a row of directional (spotlights) placed above them. Each row needs to be on a dedicated dimmer. This way lighting towards the back of the room can be brought up 'brighter' while middle or front rows can be off or dimmer. It allows for movement in the room, without flooding the room with lighting and seriously impacting the on-screen image. There also needs to be about TWICE as many lights in a theater as a normal family room. Flood lights should be in the space for general entry/exit from the room and to provide plenty of lighting for cleaning and working on the room when those lights are brought up to full power. Dimming 20 lights is easy. Adding more lights when you NEED 20 lights sucks to deal with. So, make sure there is plenty of BRIGHT lighting in the room to deal with the dark carpet, dark walls, and dark ceiling. For God's sake! It is a theater, don't dress it up like another family room. Dark, dark, dark, dark, dark!!!

I don't go overly deep into the speaker well. There are tons of excellent speakers at tons of price points. But, it is rather easy to drop $10,000 a speaker and be convinced that is the right thing to do. I'm a fan of the Meridian DSP8000 speakers... their current XE model is $125,000 a pair. So, yeah, quick and easy to blow budget.
Wow what a wealth of detailed information! And you can see from the previous response I just posted that we took your idea for the soffit, it’s part of the redline and will make it into the plan… that was a gem of an idea, thank you!

man’s that AVM90 looks amazing to me, that is definitely high on the list, but the Tone Winner looks like an incredible bargain. Spending $25K on a projector makes me gulp though… I’d like to start with something sub-$10K. Our screensize will probably be north of 165 inches, so it’s gonna be hard to cast a bright HDR image that big without spending serious bucks.

Not sure what I’m gonna do with speakers though…my top two choices are looking like they won’t work: GR-Research DIY (great for 2-channel, not for HT) and Wisdom Audio (too expensive). I’m now in the market for speakers again, and I’m a huge value shopper (“value”, not “cheap”). Open to both DIY and second-hand, and open to suggestions. We could maybe spend $25K on the whole set.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
…that AVM90 looks amazing to me, that is definitely high on the list, but the Tone Winner looks like an incredible bargain…

…Spending $25K on a projector makes me gulp though… I’d like to start with something sub-$10K. Our will probably be north of 165 inches, so it’s gonna be hard to cast a bright HDR image that big without spending serious bucks….
That’s what happens when you tell people your budget is up to $100K. :D

In general, I wouldn’t want anything “cheap”. Quality, performance, customer support, and warranty are important.

So I would stick to big and well established companies who have been around for an extremely long time and aren’t going away anytime soon.

For large screen sizes (like 165+ inches), you will want a very bright Laser projector. If you don’t want to spend $25K, then you might look into the Epson Professional Laser 4K PJ like their 6,000 Lumen (EB-PU1006) or 7,000 Lumen (EB-PU1007) projectors.

For AVR or AVP+Amp, companies know if you want more than 9.1.6, you are going to pay a lot more. So if you want high quality, pride of ownership, and still be economical, you might consider 9.1.6. Having more quantity of speakers doesn’t always mean “better”.

Might focus on 3 pairs/rows of bigger surround speakers for each of the 3 rows of seats and 3 rows of ATMOS ceiling speakers - one row above each row of seats.
 
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M

Movie2099

Audioholic General
Wow what a wealth of detailed information! And you can see from the previous response I just posted that we took your idea for the soffit, it’s part of the redline and will make it into the plan… that was a gem of an idea, thank you!

man’s that AVM90 looks amazing to me, that is definitely high on the list, but the Tone Winner looks like an incredible bargain. Spending $25K on a projector makes me gulp though… I’d like to start with something sub-$10K. Our screensize will probably be north of 165 inches, so it’s gonna be hard to cast a bright HDR image that big without spending serious bucks.

Not sure what I’m gonna do with speakers though…my top two choices are looking like they won’t work: GR-Research DIY (great for 2-channel, not for HT) and Wisdom Audio (too expensive). I’m now in the market for speakers again, and I’m a huge value shopper (“value”, not “cheap”). Open to both DIY and second-hand, and open to suggestions. We could maybe spend $25K on the whole set.
Yikes, good sized room with meh budget. With that room size you should drop nothing less than $150k-$175k. Going to need a bright projector for that large screen, a nice Processor for all those speakers, amps to power said speakers, all the cables/wire, carpet, fixtures, etc.... I think that $50k- possibly $100k budget is going to blow up real quick.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
You don't need to have all speakers from the same brand. The bulk of your speaker budget will go into the front 3 and the subwoofers. Well, with four sets of side surrounds, maybe not. :)

With a room that size I would lean towards something with a higher sensitivity as it will require less power to achieve the same SPL. For exmaple, the 1723 Tower THX from Arendal has a 92dB sensitivity and is known to have a wide dynamic range. They are an internet direct company and the $3700/pair US price is all inclusive. If you are using an acoustically transparent screen with the speakers in behind you can use 3 identical speakers for the front stage; no horizontal centre needed. Contact the manufacturer about purchasing single units. They are very good at responding and their 1723 Monitor THX speaker reviewed very well here. They make surround and height speakers as well which can be wall mounted. The 1723 Monitor THX will work in home theatre with subwooders, but the sensitivity is 3dB lower at 89dB. @shadyJ may have an idea if these are appropriate for a room that size?

RBH Sound is a great speaker company but may be outside your budget. Would need to consult on that.

For subwoofers you can choose between active and passive designs. For active designs you need both power and audio signal at each location. For passive, you handle the crossover and amplification at the rack and just run speaker wire to each location. GSG Audio Design makes killer DIY subs if you want to go big. Check out this forum thread as some photos are included. Your pre-pro or a mini-dsp can do the processing and get some Crown amps to drive them. Can be more cost effective than powered subs but will have a more industrial look unless hidden behind the screen. You'll likely need 4 for a room that size.

For in-ceiling ATMOS, a forum regular (TLS Guy) with a lot of experience recommends these full range drivers from Markaudio at only $67 each. ATMOS tracks are primarily effects so you can choose whatever brand suits your application. The Markaudio is only rated at 45W so I would check that the application is appropriate for that size of room. If your goal is movie theatre sound levels, you might need something beefier that matches your amplification.
 
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}Fear_Inoculum{

}Fear_Inoculum{

Senior Audioholic
In regards to the ToneWinner. It is indeed an incredible bargain. But it is definitely not a plug and play AVP. If you want to tinker, it can most certainly give you a very good sound. I owned one for ~1 year. Had no major issues with mine. I did upgrade to the AVM 70 in August though, and it is leaps and bounds better (I'm sure the 90 is even that much better than the 70).

Check out this thread on AVS Forums:

 
R

RuffTimo

Enthusiast
Settling in on HT specs, would love any feedback before finalizing...

After considering GR-Research (not so good for large HT) and Wisdom Audio (dreamy line source tech, but too expensive) and a few others for speakers, I'm now leaning toward Triad... seems a decent mid-level line.

Here's the list:
  • Triad loudspeakers (11.4.8, w/ 6 speakers in arrays, so 13 channels total)
  • GSG DIY subs & amps (4 - 21" BTS, all behind the screen)
  • Anthem AVM 70 Pre/Pro
  • ToneWinner Amps
  • JVC NZ7 Projector
  • Seymour DIY XD screen
  • Crowson Tactile Actuators
Room layout:

1674576587461.png

1674576612968.png
 
M

Movie2099

Audioholic General
Decided to move the projector behind the back false wall, increase the screen to 240", and get a more powerful projector... Just found a deal and pulled the trigger on this 7,000 ANSI lumen beast: https://www.christiedigital.com/products/projectors/all-projectors/hs-series/christie-4k7-hs/specifications
Hahaha, jumping from 160’s to 240”! Baller! Don’t know much about that specific Christie projector, but I’m guessing you were sold on the 7000 lumens?
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
Decided to move the projector behind the back false wall, increase the screen to 240", and get a more powerful projector... Just found a deal and pulled the trigger on this 7,000 ANSI lumen beast: https://www.christiedigital.com/products/projectors/all-projectors/hs-series/christie-4k7-hs/specifications
7000 lumens nice !!
Sounds pretty epic , I don’t have the budget nor the space for a theater room living with parents lol no job right now. Can’t wait to see pics of your build ! Like a mini imax :cool:
Biggest tv I have is non hdr 55” and I gotta bring it downstairs eventually . 240” screen wow nice ?!!!! Is that wall too wall?
 
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}Fear_Inoculum{

}Fear_Inoculum{

Senior Audioholic
I'm assuming with the purchase of that projector, you've upped your overall budget considerably TS. Nice PJ by the way .
 
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