HF Drivers after Crossover

[Pogre]

I think you need to learn more about how a PA/Professional audio system is assembled, set up and used. In a normal garage, this is beyond overkill. It may be very cool once it's set up, but it's still overkill.

Heavens to Betsy, we can't be having any overkill talk on these forums!



I think 98% of us own what many would consider overkill, lol. I get your point tho. A PA setup in a garage is pretty over the top, but it'd be fun!

 

[Eppie]

I appreciate everyone's advice, thank you all, on the Yamahas yes they came with a factory cabinet, they are the club series IV, and you are right on the money with the garage, bare wall and cement floor. on the EQ it is set flat on the middle , then I should get rid of the jrx 115 and get subwoofer, (I will read up before I do it), thank you.

I think you meant the 2426J & 2370 Horn? I was assuming that the horn is just a raw driver as I have seen some speakers where people mount a bare horn on top.

I think what threw people off at the start was that it sounded like you were taking 3 sets of drivers and putting them together to make one speaker, when in fact you have two 2-way PA speakers, two Yamaha bass cabinets and two horns. The DBX crossover can be used in either a 3-way or 2-way stereo configuration or mono 4-way. If you purchased this as a complete package from a band or DJ, then it was likely connected the way that you stated in your first post, Yamaha to LOW, JRX 115 to MID and the horns to HIGH.

I don't know enough about this particular setup to state whether those connections are ideal. The 115 already has a compression driver so the extra horn seems superfluous. Might be designed to work that way? You would need to speak to someone at a PA shop that deals in professional music equipment for advice on that.

You need to find the manual for the 234XS and find the proper settings and connections for a 2-way or 3-way setup, but the crossover needs to be at the right point. The manual is here. The manual is a bit confusing on how the crossovers work as the ranges are stated as 45Hz to 960Hz or 450Hz to 9.6kHz when 10x is active. What is not clear to me is what happens in 2-way mode? Do the mids and highs get combined, or do the mid or high frequencies get filtered out in 2-way mode? You need the mids and highs to get combined to use just the JRX 115 with the Yamahas. You could experiment and see how it sounds without the horns. If anything gets filtered out in 2-way mode, you may need to run it 3-way with the horns.

Sorry that I can't be more specific, but connecting pro gear is very different from typical home audio. I hope you have all of the XLR cables as those units use balanced inputs and outputs. If you do experiment with the DBX settings, be sure to turn off your amps when making changes. You want to avoid any loud pops from damaging the speakers. You also want to be sure not to send any bass to the horns. The 115 will have an internal crossover, but if the 2426J is a raw driver then there is nothing protecting it from bass except for the DBX 234XS.

 

[Pogre]

I think what threw people off at the start was that it sounded like you were taking 3 sets of drivers and putting them together to make one speaker, when in fact you have two 2-way PA speakers, two Yamaha bass cabinets and two horns.

That did totally throw me off. Thats exactly what I assumed. Raw drivers, an off the shelf crossover and plans to build a 3 way speaker.

Oops!

 

[Tron21]

I think you meant the 2426J & 2370 Horn? I was assuming that the horn is just a raw driver as I have seen some speakers where people mount a bare horn on top.

I think what threw people off at the start was that it sounded like you were taking 3 sets of drivers and putting them together to make one speaker, when in fact you have two 2-way PA speakers, two Yamaha bass cabinets and two horns. The DBX crossover can be used in either a 3-way or 2-way stereo configuration or mono 4-way. If you purchased this as a complete package from a band or DJ, then it was likely connected the way that you stated in your first post, Yamaha to LOW, JRX 115 to MID and the horns to HIGH.

I don't know enough about this particular setup to state whether those connections are ideal. The 115 already has a compression driver so the extra horn seems superfluous. Might be designed to work that way? You would need to speak to someone at a PA shop that deals in professional music equipment for advice on that.

You need to find the manual for the 234XS and find the proper settings and connections for a 2-way or 3-way setup, but the crossover needs to be at the right point. The manual is here. The manual is a bit confusing on how the crossovers work as the ranges are stated as 45Hz to 960Hz or 450Hz to 9.6kHz when 10x is active. What is not clear to me is what happens in 2-way mode? Do the mids and highs get combined, or do the mid or high frequencies get filtered out in 2-way mode? You need the mids and highs to get combined to use just the JRX 115 with the Yamahas. You could experiment and see how it sounds without the horns. If anything gets filtered out in 2-way mode, you may need to run it 3-way with the horns.

Sorry that I can't be more specific, but connecting pro gear is very different from typical home audio. I hope you have all of the XLR cables as those units use balanced inputs and outputs. If you do experiment with the DBX settings, be sure to turn off your amps when making changes. You want to avoid any loud pops from damaging the speakers. You also want to be sure not to send any bass to the horns. The 115 will have an internal crossover, but if the 2426J is a raw driver then there is nothing protecting it from bass except for the DBX 234XS.

Apologies for the confusion, looks like I also need to learn the terminology to properly explain what I have, but you are correct. I have 2 Yamaha 18" base cabinets, using the JRX115 as Mids, and the 2426J drivers with the 2370 horns as the highs. I'll disconnect the horns from the jrx boxes to see how it sounds, but according to the dbx manual i've set it up for 3 way output, and it looks like the adjustment of the Mid level determines the output of the Highs. the only reason I am using those jrx115 with the horn is that i go them at great deal the pair for 100, and yes everything is connected with XLR cables. Thank you.

 

[ski2xblack]

Learning this stuff while utilizing an active crossover is not a bad place to start. That will be much less tedious than working with passive network bits. But you need to invest the time in learning the requisite baseline knowledge, some measurement gear, and maybe a friend who is a judge (to get you out of the noise complaint charges). I'd recommend the book by Dickeson, although there may be more up to date options or ones that focus on pro audio/PA/live reinforcement rigs.

 

[Tron21]

Learning this stuff while utilizing an active crossover is not a bad place to start. That will be much less tedious than working with passive network bits. But you need to invest the time in learning the requisite baseline knowledge, some measurement gear, and maybe a friend who is a judge (to get you out of the noise complaint charges). I'd recommend the book by Dickeson, although there may be more up to date options or ones that focus on pro audio/PA/live reinforcement rigs.

Awesome, thank you for the book recommendation, I'll get right on it, so far I'm only going of YouTube Videos and posting I read on the Net. is the book the one by Vance Dickason - Loudspeaker Design Cookbook? also keep in mind I am starting out what is your opinion on Paul Mcgowan - Audiophile's Guide: The Stereo it is design for a beginner thinking of ordering that from Amazon, it comes with a CD to help with the book.

 

[Pogre]

for the confusion, looks like I also need to learn the terminology to properly explain what I have, but you are correct. I have 2 Yamaha 18" base cabinets, using the JRX115 as Mids, and the 2426J drivers with the 2370 horns as the highs.

Eh, well my apologies for assuming the wrong thing. Eppie figured out what you were doing so you got out the pertinent info. It's good you're seeking info before slapping everything together with no research. From the looks of it you're gonna have a block party system in your garage, lol.

 

[Tron21]

Eh, well my apologies for assuming the wrong thing. Eppie figured out what you were doing so you got out the pertinent info. It's good you're seeking info before slapping everything together with no research. From the looks of it you're gonna have a block party system in your garage, lol.

lol.. I know I probably got carried away, thank you for the feedback though, I'm looking to more reading materials to learn about all this, it is a lot but I'm in no rush. Appreciate everyone's feedback.

 

[highfigh]

That is scary, thank you for the info. I'll have to look at getting a device to measure db levels to set the volume properly,

Your ears and body should be all you need- if you feel it like a kick in the chest or your ears ring for days after using the system, you have permanently damaged your hearing. It's real, it's common and it's not something that will return to normal.

You can download an app on y our phone and it will be close enough for all practical purposes- if it's over 95dB, it's loud and that's less than 1W through those JRX115.

 

[Tron21]

Your ears and body should be all you need- if you feel it like a kick in the chest or your ears ring for days after using the system, you have permanently damaged your hearing. It's real, it's common and it's not something that will return to normal.

You can download an app on y our phone and it will be close enough for all practical purposes- if it's over 95dB, it's loud and that's less than 1W through those JRX115.

it is scary that I can damage my hearing, I work remotely and have headphone most of the day, low volume but my ears do ring for a while after taking them off. i look for that app, thanks.

 

[highfigh]

it is scary that I can damage my hearing, I work remotely and have headphone most of the day, low volume but my ears do ring for a while after taking them off. i look for that app, thanks.

Our hearing is damaged just from driving with the window open, especially when pinheads with crotch rockets gun the engine next to the car, working on cars/boats/anything with an internal combustion engine, woodworking, being a carpenter, just hammering nails- it's all louder than our ears need. If someone is into firearms, there's absolutely no reason to not use hearing protection.

 

[Pogre]

Our hearing is damaged just from driving with the window open, especially when pinheads with crotch rockets gun the engine next to the car, working on cars/boats/anything with an internal combustion engine, woodworking, being a carpenter, just hammering nails- it's all louder than our ears need. If someone is into firearms, there's absolutely no reason to not use hearing protection.

Well, there's exposure time vs spl too. I mean, I agree with you that it's good to know and a lot of folks don't realize there's a "daily limit" so to speak, but short exposure to 90-95 dB won't cause permanent damage if it's limited enough.

I don't mean to downplay the damage that can be done tho. It really is something more people should be aware of.

 

[lovinthehd]

Awesome, thank you for the book recommendation, I'll get right on it, so far I'm only going of YouTube Videos and posting I read on the Net. is the book the one by Vance Dickason - Loudspeaker Design Cookbook? also keep in mind I am starting out what is your opinion on Paul Mcgowan - Audiophile's Guide: The Stereo it is design for a beginner thinking of ordering that from Amazon, it comes with a CD to help with the book.

The Dickason book is good. I wouldn't bother with McGowan's stuff (or his products at what I call BS Audio), particularly his lame and often misleading videos. A good audio book in general is Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms (and he was one of the top guys at Harman, owner of JBL). Many youtube videos aren't very good outside of the more technical ones Audioholics, Erin's Audio Corner and Audiosciencereview provide. If you really want to see what's going on get a measurement mic (like a miniDSP Umik-1 or -2, or a Dayton UMM-6) and use software like Room EQ Wizard (REW).

 

[highfigh]

Well, there's exposure time vs spl too. I mean, I agree with you that it's good to know and a lot of folks don't realize there's a "daily limit" so to speak, but short exposure to 90-95 dB won't cause permanent damage if it's limited enough.

I don't mean to downplay the damage that can be done tho. It really is something more people should be aware of.

The OSHA link shows permissible exposure times for each SPL and it includes a comment about

"Exposure to impulsive or impact
noise should not exceed 140 dB peak sound pressure level.", which can be caused by air hammers, impact wrenches/hammer drills/rotary hammers and even a regular framing hammer when it hits the board. This Old House did a segment about jobsite safety and they measured hammering nails at 135dB.

It also shows "When the daily noise exposure is composed of two or more periods of noise exposure of different levels, their combined effect should be considered, rather than the individual effect of each."

Broadband sound, which includes music at live shows and festivals, can exceed 95dB and some of those run from noon until midnight- Milwaukee's Summerfest is one event that has multiple stages with bands playing at the same time and they have a limit of 95dB at the mixing board. Trust me, it's loud. It's not 'loud stereo' loud, it's 'What? I can't hear you!!!' loud and for some, it's 'Holy crap! Let's go home!' loud.

I NEVER go to Summerfest without ear plugs. I NEVER go to see fireworks without ear plugs. I NEVER work or go to a place where excessive SPL is a possibility, so I just carry them wherever I go.

Koss headphones used to come with a warning about excessive noise level- don't know if they still do but I wouldn't be surprised if they do and it mentioned 95dB.

 

[Tron21]

The Dickason book is good. I wouldn't bother with McGowan's stuff (or his products at what I call BS Audio), particularly his lame and often misleading videos. A good audio book in general is Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms (and he was one of the top guys at Harman, owner of JBL). Many youtube videos aren't very good outside of the more technical ones Audioholics, Erin's Audio Corner and Audiosciencereview provide. If you really want to see what's going on get a measurement mic (like a miniDSP Umik-1 or -2, or a Dayton UMM-6) and use software like Room EQ Wizard (REW).

Awesome, thanks you, I won't bother with McGowan anymore, instead I'll go for the Dayton UMM-6, Thanks.

 

[Pogre]

Awesome, thanks you, I won't bother with McGowan anymore, instead I'll go for the Dayton UMM-6, Thanks.

Yeah, don't be taking advice from Paul McGowan. He'll relieve you of your money fast and leave you wondering what it even did.

A little off topic but since hearing damage was brought up I dug up a (fairly) recent Audioholics article on it that covers quite a bit.

Hearing Protection and Listening Safety

This article discusses the importance of hearing safety and how to combat tinnitus using active hearing aids and soundscapes. Listen for a lifetime by not abusing your ears to enjoy true hi-fi.

www.audioholics.com

There's some good info in there and gives you a pretty clear picture of how it works.

 

[Eppie]

Awesome, thanks you, I won't bother with McGowan anymore, instead I'll go for the Dayton UMM-6, Thanks.

I just started getting into Room EQ Wizard with a Umik-1. There is a fair bit to learn but the REW web site has some good starter tutorials and the Solen web page (who also sell the Umik) has some tutorials for using REW as well. There is a thread in this forum on discussing REW measurements and there is also a good article on Audioholics on understanding how to interpret measurement graphs. The members here can point you in the right direction when you're ready, if needed.

 

[Tron21]

Bear in mind that there are some very knowledgeable speaker builders here. Some have decades of experience in speaker design and the thought of cobbling together some mismatched components probably has them cringing in their seats. The JRX 115 is a full range speaker but those professional model speakers are not really intended for home use. The frequency response is only 38Hz to 16kHz so it lacks in both the bottom and top end for music play back. They are fine in a bar or outdoor setting but in a quiet home they won't perform like a well designed home stereo speaker. I can understand what you trying to accomplish by adding subwoofers and a compression horn.

My advice with the JRX 115 is to just supplement the bass with a subwoofer build. Are the Yamaha speakers already in a proper bass cabinet? Sounds like you have some professional grade gear that you are trying to adapt to home use. Look up the specs on the Yamaha speakers and you could determine a proper crossover point. 80 Hz is typical for home speakers but the 100Hz you read about could work too. You then need to level match the subs to your main speakers. I would not add the compression horn. If the garage has concrete floors and bare walls it will likely be very reflective and bright sounding to begin with.

And I agree with highfigh. Those speakers are very efficient and you have plenty of power with the Crown amps. In a relatively small space like a garage you really need to watch the volume levels so that you don't damage your hearing. You can install a decibel meter app on your smartphone and look up some safety tables on the web. If you use the EQ, don't boost the levels too much or set it for a smiley face curve like people did in the 80's. Start with the EQ flat and only make small adjustments where needed. If most of the EQ settings are above neutral then you are supplying a much stronger signal to the amps.

Eppie, quick question for you, on the JRX115 since I'm using them as Mid range speakers, would be better to just disconnect the horns in those cabinets, or my friend has a pair of JBL 2226H speakers that he offer to sell to me? Thanks.

 

[highfigh]

Eppie, quick question for you, on the JRX115 since I'm using them as Mid range speakers, would be better to just disconnect the horns in those cabinets, or my friend has a pair of JBL 2226H speakers that he offer to sell to me? Thanks.

What are the separate horns going to give you that the JRX115 don't?

The 2226H is rated from 30Hz-2.5KHz- these are made for high SPL applications and they really need to be in the correct cabinet, just like any other woofer. The compression drives are a lot more sensitive than the woofers and JRX115 and the vertical dispersion is even less than the 115s- horns are made to cover a specific area as they project the sound outward- you'll be in a garage that, as you posted, isn't huge. This really isn't the best place to use horns.

 

[Eppie]

Eppie, quick question for you, on the JRX115 since I'm using them as Mid range speakers, would be better to just disconnect the horns in those cabinets, or my friend has a pair of JBL 2226H speakers that he offer to sell to me? Thanks.

I would not make any alterations to the JRX115. You don't know what the crossover frequency is in that speaker and there may be some overlap between the DBX crossover and the JRX115 so even though it is connected to the MID terminals there may still be output from the horn on the JRX115. You will also change the speaker impedance in an unknown way which could prove problematic for your amps.

The 2226H is a mid-woofer but I don't see how it would fit in with what you currently have. If you wanted to design and build your own speakers, you could design one around the 2226H but that involves getting all of the detailed specs on that particular driver, matching it up to a proper tweeter or mid-range and tweeter and using software to design a crossover to match those components. (The detailed specs [Thiele/small parameters] are all listed in the spec sheet on the JBL web site.) You should not randomly mix drivers, but it would be possible to design something new with the 2226H.

I would first try all of your speakers together the way they were intended. It's possible that whoever put that package together knew what they were doing and that they match well. You could always experiment with trying a 2-way setup later with the Yamahas and JRX115. As highfigh mentioned, those speakers are designed to project sound for long distances. The will likely not have a very wide dispersion but will have a long throw directly in front. Great for the back yard; not so great in a relatively small room. It's kind of like taking a 1/4 mile dragster and trying to drive only 100 yards.