Autonomous Vehicles - strange bedfellows ! ?

[Mikado463]

For decades railroads and motor carriers have been at odds. Synergies and areas of common ground have slowly evolved between the two over the past couple of decades to the point where the likes of JB Hunt and Schneider depend on Class 1's for a large part of their Transcon service. Fast forward to this interesting partnership .........

TuSimple automated trucks will soon haul freight for Union Pacific Railroad - Railway Track and Structures

Automated trucks will soon begin hauling freight for Union Pacific in one western lane.

www.rtands.com

 

[Hetfield]

I don't know but hope this is all very safe. Sounds kinda scary to me.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

 

[slipperybidness]

Autonomous vehicles are already safer (statistically, and that is all that matters in such conversations as this, similar to how air travel is much safer than vehicular travel) than their human-controlled counterparts, it wasn't really a very high bar to clear. We are just seeing the beginning of what is to come, when all of the vehicles on the road are autonomous and also communicating with each other and with the infrastructure in a networked vivisystem. This will certainly be the future state.

One of the biggest problems is overcoming human fear and bias.

 

[Hetfield]

This countries roads aren't set up for this. There are too many variables. Look at how crazy these roads are. If you think in your lifetime you are gonna just get in your car and punch in the address of your cousin and it just goes without incident I don't see it.
Would you even feel comfortable just dialing in an address and the car just goes? I don't know man I guess I just don't get it or see it.

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[j_garcia]

I've said for years this was a good idea, BUT, they have to create dedicated lanes for them that human operated vehicles don't use. Seems feasible in rural / middle of nowhere areas. So long hauls, from dist center to dist center they could do it, then in town, an actual driver. It actually makes sense. Autonomous driving vehicles still are not where they need to be for this to truly work though.

 

[cpp]

I've said for years this was a good idea, BUT,

Agree. I can see it now, as driverless cars depend heavily on computers, making them more vulnerable to hackers and other cyber threats than today’s car. Then in the event of an accident, determining fault in an accident is difficult as it could be blamed on the passengers, software engineers, manufacturers, etc. So this is the future.

 

[j_garcia]

Agree. I can see it now, as driverless cars depend heavily on computers, making them more vulnerable to hackers and other cyber threats than today’s car. Then in the event of an accident, determining fault in an accident is difficult as it could be blamed on the passengers, software engineers, manufacturers, etc. So this is the future.

Well, here in Ca. a driver was charged with a felony because his Tesla killed someone while on autodrive. First time that's happened, so we'll see where that goes. I don't think he'll get convicted, but it starts to set legal precedence. I think I read the EU said they do not consider the driver responsible in that situation, so the legal aspect likely needs to be settled before this becomes a reality.

Me personally, I live here right where most of that autodriving is being created and I think we're a long ways off from it still.

 

[highfigh]

I think that autonomy on a fixed, closed course is great but as soon as it becomes easy to enter/exit, the chance of problems rises greatly.

Someone, somewhere, will find a way to bypass at least part of the control system.

Don't even get me started on flying cars- people drive like idiots in two dimensions, let's not give them a third.

 

[highfigh]

Well, here in Ca. a driver was charged with a felony because his Tesla killed someone while on autodrive. First time that's happened, so we'll see where that goes. I don't think he'll get convicted, but it starts to set legal precedence. I think I read the EU said they do not consider the driver responsible in that situation, so the legal aspect likely needs to be settled before this becomes a reality.

Me personally, I live here right where most of that autodriving is being created and I think we're a long ways off from it still.

First time in CA, but an AZ woman was watching something on her phone or tablet when she greased someone who was crossing the road in the dark, far from an official crossing point.

Too many variables and too much unpredictable behavior, IMO.

 

[j_garcia]

First time in CA, but an AZ woman was watching something on her phone or tablet when she greased someone who was crossing the road in the dark, far from an official crossing point.

Too many variables and too much unpredictable behavior, IMO.

Yeah, I think she was charged too, but it says it is different from the Arizona one:

The defendant appears to be the first person to be charged with a felony in the United States for a fatal crash involving a motorist who was using a partially automated driving system. Los Angeles County prosecutors filed the charges in October, but they came to light only last week.

Felony charges are 1st in a fatal crash involving Autopilot

California prosecutors have filed two counts of vehicular manslaughter against the driver of a Tesla on Autopilot who ran a red light, slammed into another car and killed two people in 2019.

apnews.com

 

[slipperybidness]

All of you naysayers are simply stuck in the past. I agree, the end state of automation and the vivisystem may not be in my lifetime, but the future is obvious and clear. It will happen, and it will be a better and safer system when we reach that end state.

We have a lot of modern systems now, that had the same naysayers in the past.

Just like every piece of cutting edge technology, the laws have not caught up yet and we will have to adapt and improve the laws as the vivisystem progresses.

Personally, the idea of releasing control is a bit fearful to me too, but I realize this is fear and bias.

 

[Hetfield]

Well I don't see it, I really truly don't. I mean for a long, long time even if this happens some vehicles will be autonomous and some won't. How does that exactly work? This isn't flying a plane 35,000 feet up in the atmosphere. There are a zillion things to run into, a zillion obstacles and variables.

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[j_garcia]

All of you naysayers are simply stuck in the past. I agree, the end state of automation and the vivisystem may not be in my lifetime, but the future is obvious and clear. It will happen, and it will be a better and safer system when we reach that end state.

We have a lot of modern systems now, that had the same naysayers in the past.

Just like every piece of cutting edge technology, the laws have not caught up yet and we will have to adapt and improve the laws as the vivisystem progresses.

Personally, the idea of releasing control is a bit fearful to me too, but I realize this is fear and bias.

The fear is only there because we're not there yet. I don't feel the tech is smart enough yet, but I agree, it is inevitable. For transportation of materials I think it needs to happen NOW because there's no reason not to. With the tech we have now it is possible. For driving people around in cities, it isn't going to happen for a LONG time. Ca. traffic is bad, but is NOTHING compared to many other countries lol. Freeways it could also probably already be done, but not in a city like SF or greater LA.

 

[Mikado463]

FWIW Budweiser has been Beta testing autonomous trucks out west for over four years now. The article I attached clearly points out very specific lanes where this will be implemented. Given the state of distracted driving with respect to cell phones I suspect this can't be all bad !!

 

[slipperybidness]

The fear is only there because we're not there yet. I don't feel the tech is smart enough yet, but I agree, it is inevitable. For transportation of materials I think it needs to happen NOW because there's no reason not to. With the tech we have now it is possible. For driving people around in cities, it isn't going to happen for a LONG time. Ca. traffic is bad, but is NOTHING compared to many other countries lol. Freeways it could also probably already be done, but not in a city like SF or greater LA.

The tech is smart enough already (more precisely, we have the sensors and processing power to the point that it is small enough and cheap enough to be viable). What is missing at this point is widespread adoption and the networked communications b/w vehicles and the infrastructure. Once this is done and the entire system is running on the Hive Mentality, traffic problems simply do not happen any longer. The system will always make decisions based on the overall best average outcome for every user, rather than the current reality where every driver is making decisions to try to have an advantage.

The facts are-- Sensors and computers can collect data, process data, and react much faster and more consistently than a human ever could, while also having no risk of driver distraction. Just like air travel, it seems scary the first time, but it is statistically a safer way to travel than by road.

 

[j_garcia]

The tech is smart enough already. What is missing at this point is widespread adoption and the networked communications b/w vehicles and the infrastructure. Once this is done and the entire system is running on the Hive Mentality, traffic problems simply do not happen any longer. The system will always make decisions based on the overall best average outcome for every user, rather than the current reality where every driver is making decisions to try to have an advantage.

The facts are-- Sensors and computers can collect data, process data, and react much faster and more consistently than a human ever could, while also having no risk of driver distraction. Just like air travel, it seems scary the first time, but it is statistically a safer way to travel than by road.

Yes, once all the parts are working. For now, they still aren't. I agree, computers can be more efficient, but they also still don't really understand the real world. Faster processing isn't all there is to it. Making the right decision based on that information is still a bit of a puzzle for the current systems.

Tesla recalls all 53,822 vehicles with its 'full self-driving' feature | CNN Business

Tesla will recall all 53,822 vehicles with its "full self-driving" driver-assist feature after it was intentionally programmed to slowly roll through stop signs in some scenarios.

www.cnn.com

 

[ryanosaur]

Ah, to never have to talk to another taxi or Uber driver again!
*sighs dreamily

 

[slipperybidness]

Yes, once all the parts are working. For now, they still aren't. I agree, computers can be more efficient, but they also still don't really understand the real world. Faster processing isn't all there is to it. Making the right decision based on that information is still a bit of a puzzle for the current systems.

Tesla recalls all 53,822 vehicles with its 'full self-driving' feature | CNN Business

Tesla will recall all 53,822 vehicles with its "full self-driving" driver-assist feature after it was intentionally programmed to slowly roll through stop signs in some scenarios.

www.cnn.com

Sure, but now we need to start talking about cybernetics, machine learning, emergent systems, industrial ecology, and software/machine self-evolution. NOW the fun is beginning

I have almost certainly read up and studied this type of system more than most people, as I am completely fascinated by the possibilities, and am equally fascinated by the fear that comes along with these concepts.

For a more general approach to these topics, I am currently reading this book, written in 1992 and it is quite interesting on how many of his concepts have now become mainstream, and how many have not come to pass yet.

Out of Control (Kelly book) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SithZedi]

Very interesting topic, this is, thanks for opening up this forum.
As someone said, the future is inevitable. In the long run, this will probably happen. As for the effects on the human spirit, at least for the older generations, it will be sad because cars represented things like freedom, adventure, first sexual experiences, and control of our destinies, amoung many other feelings that come along with driving. Those feelings might not be totally eliminated with autonomous transportation but it will not be the same for us. The younger generations will accept them with greater ease since the world they are growing up in does not give them the same nostalgic feelings we had. It will also give them more time to be on their smart phones anyway.

Assuming that the bulk of these vehicles will be electric, natural gas, or hydrogen powered, it is going to take billions/trillions of investment capital to set it up. Even now, our dated and underfunded elecrtrical grid is teetering. With the buildup of electric cars now that problem will only get worse. Lots of work to do.

 

[cpp]

Well, here in Ca. a driver was charged with a felony because his Tesla killed someone while on autodrive. First time that's happened, so we'll see where that goes. I don't think he'll get convicted, but it starts to set legal precedence. I think I read the EU said they do not consider the driver responsible in that situation, so the legal aspect likely needs to be settled before this becomes a reality.

Me personally, I live here right where most of that autodriving is being created and I think we're a long ways off from it still.

I think it turns ( my opinion only) lazy people, into more of a lazy driver,