What are we thinking with Taiwan and Ukraine?

[Danzilla31]

The right thing to do is never going to come without cost and shouldn't be done for reward. Either democracy is worth fighting for or it isn't. A war China or Russia would be devastating, however not fighting them may be even worse.

Yes, we have promoted bad governments for our own ends in the past, but that doesn't mean we should persist. As for "securing our borders," that kind of talk is Fox news propaganda gibbersih. We have much worse problems than border insecurity. Our own democracy is hanging by a thread. Maybe if we fight for it elsewhere, we will be reminded what it means for ourselves.

Gotta disagree with you on border security bro living here in Texas and being friends with some of our ranchers on the border yeah totally disagree with you. I've seen the problems and it's not overblown Fox B.S. what's really sickening is how much it's being covered up right now

And if your going to war with another country ummm yeah you need secure borders

 

[Danzilla31]

The right thing to do is never going to come without cost and shouldn't be done for reward. Either democracy is worth fighting for or it isn't. A war China or Russia would be devastating, however not fighting them may be even worse.

Yes, we have promoted bad governments for our own ends in the past, but that doesn't mean we should persist. As for "securing our borders," that kind of talk is Fox news propaganda gibbersih. We have much worse problems than border insecurity. Our own democracy is hanging by a thread. Maybe if we fight for it elsewhere, we will be reminded what it means for ourselves.

Whose fighting for it tho? I'm 48 and have a blown right knee thanks to football. They'd never accept me now. You going over there? I have no right to push for a war I'm not going to put my life on the line for.

 

[Danzilla31]

The right thing to do is never going to come without cost and shouldn't be done for reward. Either democracy is worth fighting for or it isn't. A war China or Russia would be devastating, however not fighting them may be even worse.

Yes, we have promoted bad governments for our own ends in the past, but that doesn't mean we should persist. As for "securing our borders," that kind of talk is Fox news propaganda gibbersih. We have much worse problems than border insecurity. Our own democracy is hanging by a thread. Maybe if we fight for it elsewhere, we will be reminded what it means for ourselves.

Risk vs Reward is part of the assessment sending our troops over there if it's unwinnable or just unsustainable to hold on to whatever is won putting our men and women through the horrors of war if it's a losing cause is unacceptable.

I love chess play it all the time following the world championship right now. You have to have proper compensation to sacrifice your resources to achieve an objective.

It's not fighting that's the issue it's picking when and where to do it. And how much it's going to cost you the risk has to be worth the cost

 

[TLS Guy]

I just don't get it. What are we getting out of sticking our nose into these conflicts?

Other than jeopardizing American civilian and military lives and the lives of other people in the world?

Both involve treaties and ideas that were developed decades ago. And may be obsolete for what they are originally intended

Both situations are really unwinnable and at great cost to us.

You got that idiotic Republican Senator saying we shouldn't leave a first strike nuclear option of the table with Ukraine

Really? What is our long term end game with both objectives?

And I cant believe I'm saying this but Russia actually has a point. If Ukraine goes Nato and they use that as a reason to stockpile weapons and military right by there border it compromises there border security and makes Putin look weak forcing him to act aggressively and escalate the situation!

Have we lost our minds?

I know we want to defend democracy around the globe but really? In a pandemic and with our own country obviously going through it's own crises right now.

Thank God Biden is not committing to ground troops and seems to be descalating the situation.

I'm really hoping it's just a rattling of the sabers. At least on our part because Russia has already stacked 100,000 troops against that border. If they decide to go which I'm thinking they may in 2 to 3 months I'm not seeing what we can really do about it.

Somebody help me understand what's going on here a little better please. Because I'm stumped any feedback appreciated

The Ghost of Neville Chamberlain inhabits all these considerations. WWII could have been stopped when Hitler reoccupied the Ruhr. So Poland was the final straw.

Russia must not be allowed to annex the Ukraine. If they do the Baltic states will be next and the whole Baltic region in jeopardy.

Taiwan is another bad case. Chinese aggression there has to be resisted also.

As far as Europe is concerned the NATO alliance involving 30 countries, but not Ukraine, is a sacred treaty, where an attack on one is an attack against the other.

If Russia can annex Ukraine, then NATO countries will be very concerned.

The UK have troops on the Ukrainian Polish border, and they have an expeditionary force in Germany. That force is a tank regiment. It could easily sweep into Poland should the need arise.

 

[Danzilla31]

The Ghost of Neville Chamberlain inhabits all these considerations. WWII could have been stopped when Hitler reoccupied the Ruhr. So Poland was the final straw.

Russia must not be allowed to annex the Ukraine. If they do the Baltic states will be next and the whole Baltic region in jeopardy.

Taiwan is another bad case. Chinese aggression there has to be resisted also.

As far as Europe is concerned the NATO alliance involving 30 countries, but not Ukraine, is a sacred treaty, where an attack on one is an attack against the other.

If Russia can annex Ukraine, then NATO countries will be very concerned.

The UK have troops on the Ukrainian Polish border, and they have an expeditionary force in Germany. That force is a tank regiment. It could easily sweep into Poland should the need arise.

Good information thank you

 

[mtrycrafts]

Good information thank you

Yes. There is an interesting saying out there that I don't fully remember but it is something like this:
first, they came for ... but i didn't help; then they came for .... and I still didn't say anything; then they came for .... still, I didn't say anything;
The, they came for me but there was nobody left to respond.

 

[Replicant 7]

found this 2021 info.
Here are the 10 countries with the most nuclear weapons:

1. Russia (6,490)
2. United States (6,185)
3. France (300)
4. China (290)
5. United Kingdom (200)
6. Pakistan (160)
7. India (140)
8. Israel (90)
9. North Korea (30)

Why so many nukes? Dam! USA 6k nukes, wow. What would it take? a dozen to wipe out the planet.

 

[Am_P]

So you boys actually think that the Taiwanese guys feel that Americans are a buncha saints? No, quite the opposite. They are 100% culturally aligned with the Chinese. Hell, have you looked at them? They are Chinese. They pretend to hate the Chinese and pretend to want an independent country as long as Uncle Sammy, Dave, Bill, Amanda, Skyler, Megan and Lyndsey continue to pay them billions of USD every year to play to uncle Sammy's tune. Well, guys, keep paying your taxes on time! Allies/friends cost a lot of money these days.

 

[TLS Guy]

So you boys actually think that the Taiwanese guys feel that Americans are a buncha saints? No, quite the opposite. They are 100% culturally aligned with the Chinese. Hell, have you looked at them? They are Chinese. They pretend to hate the Chinese and pretend to want an independent country as long as Uncle Sammy, Dave, Bill, Amanda, Skyler, Megan and Lyndsey continue to pay them billions of USD every year to play to uncle Sammy's tune. Well, guys, keep paying your taxes on time! Allies/friends cost a lot of money these days.

No they are the guys who resisted the Chinese communist revolution. Their leader chiang Kai-shek fled to Taiwan and set up a government in exile, which still stands today. Taiwan has never been part of mainland China, and the Chinese have absolutely no claim to the island.

 

[Danzilla31]

Yes. There is an interesting saying out there that I don't fully remember but it is something like this:
first, they came for ... but i didn't help; then they came for .... and I still didn't say anything; then they came for .... still, I didn't say anything;
The, they came for me but there was nobody left to respond.

The saying is from the holocaust in World War 2
I remember it very much as I was doing a research paper on the holocaust and one of the books I studied was Eli Wiesel's book Night. It was a haunting book and a haunting study I was left depressed for weeks after. To realize the monstrosity we as humans are capable of. It was very disturbing but a very good growing point in my life as well

 

[Danzilla31]

Yes. There is an interesting saying out there that I don't fully remember but it is something like this:
first, they came for ... but i didn't help; then they came for .... and I still didn't say anything; then they came for .... still, I didn't say anything;
The, they came for me but there was nobody left to respond.

This is all good and true I guess my concern is there seems to be a lot of pushing for this right now without much thinking through of the consequences. Or what it's actually going to take to prevail. I guess I'm seeing a lot of enthusiasm not a lot of preparation

When you have a Republican Senator saying we should not leave a preemptive nuclear strike off the table that makes me concerned

When people are saying we should not allow this to happen and just push for war so recklessly it implies to me a huge confidence in our abilities and not much thinking of what our opponent is capable of for me a huge concern

We're talking about 2 opponents who are ruthless calculating and especially with China have been planning and preparing for this for decades. That's what bothers me preparation.

It's in there backyard oceans away. Both countries know our greatest strength is air superiority until we can mobilize forces something they have specifically been designing and building some of there military to target this strength. We were the superior force in Vietnam and look what an inferior but properly prepared opponent did to us there?

If we're going to fight fine but are we really prepared for what's to come have we really prepared to win? Also people over there are so tough and hardened to life. Russias entire GDP is like the equal to California. These are some hardened people man wars atrocities go on over in that side of the world all the time.

Russians or Chinese lose 50,000 its just a day in the office.

We lose 50,000 we've gotten so soft over here do we really have the resolve to push it through?

I just hear a lot of beating of the drums but if we're going to fight a war. We got to win. Are we prepared to win?

China has been watching planning and preparing for so long are we preparing as well?

 

[Danzilla31]

Yes. There is an interesting saying out there that I don't fully remember but it is something like this:
first, they came for ... but i didn't help; then they came for .... and I still didn't say anything; then they came for .... still, I didn't say anything;
The, they came for me but there was nobody left to respond.

I guess I'm saying if your coming for me your a$$ better be prepared and you better be able to come get me. You'd better be prepared to win.

 

[Danzilla31]

The Ghost of Neville Chamberlain inhabits all these considerations. WWII could have been stopped when Hitler reoccupied the Ruhr. So Poland was the final straw.

Russia must not be allowed to annex the Ukraine. If they do the Baltic states will be next and the whole Baltic region in jeopardy.

Taiwan is another bad case. Chinese aggression there has to be resisted also.

As far as Europe is concerned the NATO alliance involving 30 countries, but not Ukraine, is a sacred treaty, where an attack on one is an attack against the other.

If Russia can annex Ukraine, then NATO countries will be very concerned.

The UK have troops on the Ukrainian Polish border, and they have an expeditionary force in Germany. That force is a tank regiment. It could easily sweep into Poland should the need arise.

I think one step in getting prepared for this if it has to come to this is something I've heard you emphasize again and again in other threads . We have got to stop being dependent on there manufacturing and we have got to stop being dependent on there energy. We have got to become completely independent from these obviously hostile nations who are clearly motivated with aggressive and bad intentions.

We have the land the resources and money to pull it off. Just wish we could make it work. I'd like to see preparation along these lines if we can

 

[Danzilla31]

Why so many nukes? Dam! USA 6k nukes, wow. What would it take? a dozen to wipe out the planet.

Yeah if someone fires a nuke this whole conversation is pointless. Nobody would be around to talk about it. That's game over human race I'm going to keep learning from you guys about these situations and other sources but most importantly going to try to live like no tommorow. Cus man it really could be all gone tommorow. Dam that's just crazy when you really think it through

 

[GO-NAD!]

The Ghost of Neville Chamberlain inhabits all these considerations. WWII could have been stopped when Hitler reoccupied the Ruhr. So Poland was the final straw.

Russia must not be allowed to annex the Ukraine. If they do the Baltic states will be next and the whole Baltic region in jeopardy.

Taiwan is another bad case. Chinese aggression there has to be resisted also.

As far as Europe is concerned the NATO alliance involving 30 countries, but not Ukraine, is a sacred treaty, where an attack on one is an attack against the other.

If Russia can annex Ukraine, then NATO countries will be very concerned.

The UK have troops on the Ukrainian Polish border, and they have an expeditionary force in Germany. That force is a tank regiment. It could easily sweep into Poland should the need arise.

While a Russian invasion can be viewed as entirely plausible, I highly doubt they would do the same to the Baltic states, as they are formal NATO members. Plus, multinational NATO battle groups are currently stationed in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia as a deterrent. While in absolute numbers, they wouldn't be able to hold back a Russian assault indefinitely, it would mean all-out war with NATO. Russia can't afford that.

NATO - News: NATO battlegroups in Baltic nations and Poland fully operational , 28-Aug.-2017

I'm very doubtful that NATO would intervene militarily in Ukraine. However, I can certainly see an economic embargo and a freezing of all Russian foreign assets.

 

[Am_P]

Yeah if someone fires a nuke this whole conversation is pointless. Nobody would be around to talk about it. That's game over human race I'm going to keep learning from you guys about these situations and other sources but most importantly going to try to live like no tommorow. Cus man it really could be all gone tommorow. Dam that's just crazy when you really think it through

The human population won't go extinct from nukes. In all probability, it will go extinct due to biological agents/warfare.

 

[highfigh]

I just don't get it. What are we getting out of sticking our nose into these conflicts?

Other than jeopardizing American civilian and military lives and the lives of other people in the world?

Both involve treaties and ideas that were developed decades ago. And may be obsolete for what they are originally intended

Both situations are really unwinnable and at great cost to us.

You got that idiotic Republican Senator saying we shouldn't leave a first strike nuclear option of the table with Ukraine

Really? What is our long term end game with both objectives?

And I cant believe I'm saying this but Russia actually has a point. If Ukraine goes Nato and they use that as a reason to stockpile weapons and military right by there border it compromises there border security and makes Putin look weak forcing him to act aggressively and escalate the situation!

Have we lost our minds?

I know we want to defend democracy around the globe but really? In a pandemic and with our own country obviously going through it's own crises right now.

Thank God Biden is not committing to ground troops and seems to be descalating the situation.

I'm really hoping it's just a rattling of the sabers. At least on our part because Russia has already stacked 100,000 troops against that border. If they decide to go which I'm thinking they may in 2 to 3 months I'm not seeing what we can really do about it.

Somebody help me understand what's going on here a little better please. Because I'm stumped any feedback appreciated

The US used to be everyone else's big brother, who would stick up for them if they were attacked or threatened but now, we're the big brother that recently started therapy for addiction and can't manage its own affairs.

To be honest, I'm not sure why Putin would be afraid of NATO, which is supposed to be a defensive organization but has been FREAKING ABSENT in most recent situations. I doubt Ukraine would attack and I seriously doubt Taiwan would attach China. Either would be very stupid moves.

However, Biden has said he wouldn't put US troops on the ground in those areas- I just hope he doesn't put troops in the air and on the water, defending his position by saying "But I didn't put them on the ground!".

Personally, I hope we NEVER have to put people on the ground again. The horrible damage from IEDs and fighting against people who can't be easily identified as 'the enemy' is too much to think that it's acceptable. We're in the same position as usual- old guys in government sending our kids into battle, mostly without any military experience that would have let them understand why they shouldn't. In the Middle Easy, it became a war run by old guys who had been in the military and thinking that our shyte didn't stink & that we could beat anyone but transitioned to a bunch of idiot kids who underestimated the abilities of the enemy.

 

[highfigh]

I've said it before and will repeat it. Ukraine and Taiwan are two very different cases.
One is a poor Slavic country with not many natural resources to fight for. Russia is fighting for Ukraine due to its military position in the Black Sea. They ALREADY annexed Crimea - the rest would make sense to follow.

Taiwan, on the other hand, just happens to be home to a single company in THE WORLD with advanced semiconductor manufacturing. Everyone else is at least two process generations behind, including Intel.
That alone is worth going to war with and not just for the US but also the EU as literally the entire world's latest technology from door buzzers to the biggest super computers chips are made only there.
That is more crucial than some oil in the desert.

Yes, this is a highly pragmatic view, but as Dan implies, we aren't in the '60s (Vietnam) nor 1998 (Kosovo war) -
The US will likely intervene with the military only if it would make sense financially.

Are you unaware of the reasons involving natural gas WRT the Russia/Ukraine problems?

Search using 'Russia buys natural gas from Ukraine' and look at all of the links.

Russia–Ukraine gas disputes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[highfigh]

I don't think there has been any suggestion of military intervention if Russia invades Ukraine. Ramping up economic measures are certainly being discussed. If they do invade, a complete embargo of Russian trade needs to be implemented. If there is no response, it will just encourage China to invade Taiwan. Western European countries need to wean themselves off of Russian oil and gas, as it makes them vulnerable to Russian arm twisting.

The Nord Stream pipeline is now providing an alternative and according to the link, Biden told Putin that the Russian pipeline will be frozen if Russia invades.

US eyes NordStream pipeline as Russian pressure point over Ukraine

In the showdown over Russia's implicit threat to invade Ukraine, the United States and European allies are eyeing what they see is a major vulnerability for Moscow -- the just-completed Nord Stream 2 pipeline to carry natural gas to Europe.

news.yahoo.com

Buckle up, kids- it's gonna be a bumpy ride.

 

[highfigh]

Let me say this. We should mind our own business. Russia and China have done no harm to us. Should we believe everything we read from the lying social media? Washington is the biggest propaganda czar. Just like the Nazi Germany during WWII lying about the Jews. Don't you know we American are the warmonger of the world? So before we make any judgement, know your facts first.

NO HARM?????????????????? Have you been living under a freaking boulder? China has taken over as the world's manufacturing giant, in part through currency manipulation and partly by using people for slave labor in factories; Russia AND China are hacking the shyte out of us and China has no respect for intellectual property rights, all of which have been insanely destructive to US corporations, economically.

You should take your own advice about knowing your facts.