D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Regardless I'm thinking his film career might be over. Not murder or manslaughter but possible negligence, as a producer, since supposedly a number of crew members complained about gun safety. Union members were replaced with non-union and so on. It would seem if it's a movie with guns an armorer is NOT the area to skimp on budget. It's very sad, but also very stupid. I mean guns with powder still isn't something to mess with. Such a waste.:( I'm guessing he and the other producers can be sued monetarily for negligence. I dunno how that works in court though?
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
Yeah, that is sad for sure poor woman. But with that said, shouldn't he be charged? Murders is murder right? Bet if you or I shot and killed someone we'd be charged with negligent homicide. Isn't ignorance no excuse of the law?
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Murder and manslaughter is intent to so no. Negligence in cutting corners with budget yeah for sure. Now if he pointed the gun at her, live or cold, then that's another case altogether.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Just seems so stupid to me. You never ever have live ammo on set. You wanna practice then go to a firing range. But you never ever mix the two shells at one site.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Well the 3 keys things in this case, Why was live ammo even on the set and why was Baldwin pointing the gun at the cinematographer. In most movies the camera is manned but during actions shots like this these people move away from behind the camera as a safety measure. And another a prop gun although real looking cannot be loaded with a live round, the chamber in the cylinder is not deep enough to hold the live cartridge. They were using a real gun as mentioned in the news last night.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Well the 3 keys things in this case, Why was live ammo even on the set and why was Baldwin pointing the gun at the cinematographer. In most movies the camera is manned but during actions shots like this these people move away from behind the camera as a safety measure. And another a prop gun although real looking cannot be loaded with a live round, the chamber in the cylinder is not deep enough to hold the live cartridge. They were using a real gun as mentioned in the news last night.
Sounds like it might have to do with the type of gun. It's a western so those types of guns take live or cold shells. According to CBS, Baldwin was practicing his draw and that's when the gun fired, said the director. The guns were not checked for live ammo before or after a scene, which is negligence. I'd like to know what "live" means on set. Doesn't seem to me to be an actual bullet shell but the powder stuff loaded into it. Demonstrations shows they can still do quite a bit of damage so all kinds of questions there.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Sounds like it might have to do with the type of gun. It's a western so those types of guns take live or cold shells. According to CBS, Baldwin was practicing his draw and that's when the gun fired, said the director. The guns were not checked for live ammo before or after a scene, which is negligence. I'd like to know what "live" means on set. Doesn't seem to me to be an actual bullet shell but the powder stuff loaded into it. Demonstrations shows they can still do quite a bit of damage so all kinds of questions there.
Total NEGLIGENCE . Can't wait for the law suits on this one.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I was wondering when this thread would be started.

'Rust' shooting opinion: How live rounds got in Alec Baldwin's gun is key to investigation - CNN

According to the legal analyst in the above opinion piece:
Baldwin did not have the responsibility to stop the rehearsal and examine the gun's cylinder to determine that the supposed "cold gun" was loaded with blanks. By custom and practice in the movie industry, an actor has the right to rely on other individuals on set with the responsibility to ensure that prop firearms are safe for use. Police likely would want to interview the film's "armorer," Hannah Gutierrez, who has yet to provide a public statement, and the assistant director who passed the weapon in question to Baldwin.
It may be, indeed, standard practice that actors are not expected to check for rounds when handed a firearm. But, if the investigation reveals that there had been a culture of safety shortcuts on this particular set, Baldwin, as one of the producers, may shoulder some degree of responsibility. I would imagine that the armorer must be $hitting bricks right now though.

This is still early days in the investigation, so it's mainly speculation circulating right now. Still, it's mind boggling to me how something like this can happen. Somebody in the handling chain of these firearms is guilty of gross negligence - at a minimum. If there was some malfeasance involved, i.e. somebody deliberately loaded this gun with live rounds, well, that's completely different ball of wax.

I understand that Baldwin is a polarizing figure. The vitriol and the schadenfreude directed his way in social media is to be expected. I would have been surprised if there wasn't a dogpile of abuse
 
WookieGR

WookieGR

Full Audioholic
Whatever happened to the guy that shot and killed Brandon Lee on the set of The Crow? Is he in jail or are trumpsters just creaming themselves now that the SNL star was involved in a tragic accident they can exploit? I hear Don Jr has some nice Chinese made shirts for that occasion.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Whatever happened to the guy that shot and killed Brandon Lee on the set of The Crow? Is he in jail or are trumpsters just creaming themselves now that the SNL star was involved in a tragic accident they can exploit? I hear Don Jr has some nice Chinese made shirts for that occasion.
 
WookieGR

WookieGR

Full Audioholic
So nothing happened to him. As was to be expected since he did not plan to kill anyone.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Regardless I'm thinking his film career might be over. Not murder or manslaughter but possible negligence, as a producer, since supposedly a number of crew members complained about gun safety. Union members were replaced with non-union and so on. It would seem if it's a movie with guns an armorer is NOT the area to skimp on budget. It's very sad, but also very stupid. I mean guns with powder still isn't something to mess with. Such a waste.:( I'm guessing he and the other producers can be sued monetarily for negligence. I dunno how that works in court though?
I find it ironic that he replaced union workers with non-union, since he's such a proud Liberal.

He has worked with guns for a really long time- I would have thought that curiosity alone may have gotten him to think about taking a firearm safety course or use ongoing training so he doesn't need to point fingers in a situation like this. As Exec Producer and with his long career, HE could have had the training to be the weapons master but I guess it's easier to blame others. There was absolutely no reason for this gun to have had live rounds in it while he practiced his draw- they could have used Snap Caps for that.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Yeah, that is sad for sure poor woman. But with that said, shouldn't he be charged? Murders is murder right? Bet if you or I shot and killed someone we'd be charged with negligent homicide. Isn't ignorance no excuse of the law?
Keep in mind that most civil and criminal laws require showing that a particular mental state ("mens rea") existed in addition to an act (e.g. pulling the trigger) and a result (e.g. death) that was caused by the act (first link below).

Laws that do not require showing a particular mental state are exceptions to the general rule, and these are referred to as "strict liability" laws (second link below). I'm not sure if there are any strict liability laws that might apply in the criminal or civil context in this case (the laws vary somewhat from state to state).

Off hand, I'd be surprised if any strict liability criminal laws would apply to the act of pulling the trigger (for purposes of discussion I'm leaving out the individuals involved in procuring the guns and ammunition, setting them up, Baldwin's possible role in this, etc.). Assuming this is correct, it boils down to his mental state at the time he pulled the trigger. We could argue about this until the cows, the sheep, and everything else comes home, but (in a criminal trial) the mental state of the defendant is ultimately a question of fact that goes to a jury. There is really no way to know right now what evidence might be presented to a future jury, or what that jury might decide.

As far as I know, no criminal charges were brought in the Brandon Lee case (last link below). The facts of every case are different, and it's unlikely that the laws in the two jurisdictions are identical. And, of course, prosecutors have at least some discretion with regards to bringing criminal charges. Nevertheless, it does suggest that criminal charges are not necessarily a slam dunk in cases such as this.

Potential civil liability is also unclear at this point. Civil liability is typically much less difficult to show (the OJ Simpson case comes to mind as an example)(last link below).

In the snip below, tort law refers to civil causes of action (i.e. a private individual can bring a lawsuit requesting monetary damages in a civil action, whereas only the government can bring criminal charges).

>>>Overview

In both tort and criminal law, strict liability exists when a defendant is liable for committing an action, regardless of what his/her intent or mental state was when committing the action. In criminal law, possession crimes and statutory rape are both examples of strict liability offenses.

Strict Liability As Applied to Criminal Law
In criminal law, strict liability is generally limited to minor offenses. Criminal law classifies strict liability as one of five possible mentes reae (mental states) that a defendant may have in pursuit of the crime. The other four are "acting knowingly," "acting purposely," "acting with recklessness," and "acting with negligence." The mens rea of strict liability typically results in more lenient punishments than the other four mentes reae. Typically in criminal law, the defendant's awareness of what he is doing would not negate a strict liability mens rea (for example, being in possession of drugs will typically result in criminal liability, regardless of whether the defendant knows that he is in possession of the drugs).

Strict Liability As Applied to Tort Law
In tort law, there are two broad categories of activities for which a plaintiff may be held strictly liable - possession of certain animals and abnormally dangerous activities. Additionally, in the area of torts known as products liability, there is a sub-category known as strict products liability which applies when a defective product for which an appropriate defendant holds responsibility causes injury to an appropriate plaintiff.<<<




 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I find it ironic that he replaced union workers with non-union, since he's such a proud Liberal.

He has worked with guns for a really long time- I would have thought that curiosity alone may have gotten him to think about taking a firearm safety course or use ongoing training so he doesn't need to point fingers in a situation like this. As Exec Producer and with his long career, HE could have had the training to be the weapons master but I guess it's easier to blame others. There was absolutely no reason for this gun to have had live rounds in it while he practiced his draw- they could have used Snap Caps for that.
I'm not aware that he has blamed anyone yet.

I don't know what the rules are regarding weapons safety on movie sets, but if somebody hands me a firearm, I check it for rounds before doing anything else. Doesn't matter if the person swears on the Bible that it's empty. Doesn't matter if I watched him check it empty before handing it over.
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
Keep in mind that most civil and criminal laws require showing that a particular mental state ("mens rea") existed in addition to an act (e.g. pulling the trigger) and a result (e.g. death) that was caused by the act (first link below).

Laws that do not require showing a particular mental state are exceptions to the general rule, and these are referred to as "strict liability" laws (second link below). I'm not sure if there are any strict liability laws that might apply in the criminal or civil context in this case (the laws vary somewhat from state to state).

Off hand, I'd be surprised if any strict liability criminal laws would apply to the act of pulling the trigger (for purposes of discussion I'm leaving out the individuals involved in procuring the guns and ammunition, setting them up, Baldwin's possible role in this, etc.). Assuming this is correct, it boils down to his mental state at the time he pulled the trigger. We could argue about this until the cows, the sheep, and everything else comes home, but (in a criminal trial) the mental state of the defendant is ultimately a question of fact that goes to a jury. There is really no way to know right now what evidence might be presented to a future jury, or what that jury might decide.

As far as I know, no criminal charges were brought in the Brandon Lee case (last link below). The facts of every case are different, and it's unlikely that the laws in the two jurisdictions are identical. And, of course, prosecutors have at least some discretion with regards to bringing criminal charges. Nevertheless, it does suggest that criminal charges are not necessarily a slam dunk in cases such as this.

Potential civil liability is also unclear at this point. Civil liability is typically much less difficult to show (the OJ Simpson case comes to mind as an example)(last link below).

In the snip below, tort law refers to civil causes of action (i.e. a private individual can bring a lawsuit requesting monetary damages in a civil action, whereas only the government can bring criminal charges).

>>>Overview

In both tort and criminal law, strict liability exists when a defendant is liable for committing an action, regardless of what his/her intent or mental state was when committing the action. In criminal law, possession crimes and statutory rape are both examples of strict liability offenses.

Strict Liability As Applied to Criminal Law
In criminal law, strict liability is generally limited to minor offenses. Criminal law classifies strict liability as one of five possible mentes reae (mental states) that a defendant may have in pursuit of the crime. The other four are "acting knowingly," "acting purposely," "acting with recklessness," and "acting with negligence." The mens rea of strict liability typically results in more lenient punishments than the other four mentes reae. Typically in criminal law, the defendant's awareness of what he is doing would not negate a strict liability mens rea (for example, being in possession of drugs will typically result in criminal liability, regardless of whether the defendant knows that he is in possession of the drugs).

Strict Liability As Applied to Tort Law
In tort law, there are two broad categories of activities for which a plaintiff may be held strictly liable - possession of certain animals and abnormally dangerous activities. Additionally, in the area of torts known as products liability, there is a sub-category known as strict products liability which applies when a defective product for which an appropriate defendant holds responsibility causes injury to an appropriate plaintiff.<<<




Great info! I like that you stated that maybe someone may have, (Set them up) that's the first thing I thought of. How the hell live ammunition gets put into gun without no one knowing it's not live ammunition? Who ever put live ammunition in that gun knew what they were doing can't tell me they didn't.
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
Ok, I just read that the gun was being used for target practice by the crew. That article is on TMZ.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm not aware that he has blamed anyone yet.

I don't know what the rules are regarding weapons safety on movie sets, but if somebody hands me a firearm, I check it for rounds before doing anything else. Doesn't matter if the person swears on the Bible that it's empty. Doesn't matter if I watched him check it empty before handing it over.
His statement that he's fully cooperating with the investigation sounds like something a politician would say. Just cooperate- nothing more needs to be said about it.

I watched some interviews and it seems that the 'rules' aren't standardized, but they damn well better change that. Apparently, this gun has had some misfires in the past and if I were in charge of a movie, I wouldn't allow it on my set.

When I was looking at guns, never having owned one, the first thing I did when picking them up is point it downward and away from anyone (either directly or in a way that someone could be hit if a round ricocheted off of the floor) and made sure it was unloaded and safe. I had done a lot of reading and had fired weapons before but, A) I never did it much, B) I'm not a weapons expert but I always look for good info about shooting & firearm safety and C) I just don't want to have that kind of accident.

When I was working at a stereo store around 1981, one of the local cops came in after a shoplifting call at the Sears across the hall and I asked what he was carrying, because I knew he was a collector. He pulled it out and swept the head of one of the other salespeople and was immediately tuned up for it. I don't care if he had fired five million rounds and if it had been made safe, he should have been more careful.

On a lighter note, the officer had arrived at the station that morning & told to go on bicycle patrol in a nearby park because of an attack that had occurred but he wasn't really prepared for that WRT clothing. He came in wearing faded jeans and denim jacket with a polo shirt stretched over his gun belt, walkie-talkie, handcuffs, gun, etc. As soon as I saw him, I asked "Undercover, eh?".
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top