No improvement after adding an Amp

[VMPS-TIII]

@mazersteven - the Hegel H90 is an integrated amp. It takes the place of a receiver, DAC, Streamer and an amp. On sale, it's actually less expensive than my Denon 4700. It sounds like you can't get over how great it is. lol

 

[sanjay.s]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts, I now got the understanding on amp. Since I cannot return the amp, have to live with it cursing my decision.
I am looking for guidance on placing the Sub in position where I could get the best out of it. Also was not able use the REW as don’t know the right method, tried following guides from YouTube, was not successful. I did try Dirac of Arcam. My manual setup was better than Dirac live output. In manual setup, I have done the following
Set the correct distance of all speakers, set the levels, cross over frequency at 80,

Appreciate if you can share a Guide / your suggestions on using the REW and DIrac live.

 

[lovinthehd]

You might start here with sub placement/setup https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/basic-subwoofer-setup

 

[mazersteven]

Do the Sub Crawl

 

[lovinthehd]

Maybe try this for REW https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/room-measurement-tutorial-for-dummies-part-1.4/

 

[ryanosaur]

Do the Sub Crawl

@sanjay.s Maz means this:

Crawling for Bass - Subwoofer Placement Tips

Do the Subwoofer Crawl. It's the easiest way to find the proper placement location for your subwoofer to get the best performance and sound.

www.audioholics.com

 

[Kleinst]

Do most of those who advise that AMPs don't improve SQ or add value other than taking the heat off the AVR use AMPs? If so, why? Cause you already bought them and might as well? Or did you buy them with great expectations and say sh*t, doesn't sound any better.

A 200WPC AMP that doubles the power of an AVR is just worth 3 incremental DB right? Does that mean that at all volume levels your will be roughly 3DB hotter than you would be with that AVR until you reach it's limits? So if you set the gain on your AVR +3DB at a given volume level you would have roughly the same SPL as with the 200WPC AMP? Probably not that simply but wondering if that's how it works.

 

[ryanosaur]

Do most of those who advise that AMPs don't improve SQ or add value other than taking the heat off the AVR use AMPs? If so, why? Cause you already bought them and might as well? Or did you buy them with great expectations and say sh*t, doesn't sound any better.

A 200WPC AMP that doubles the power of an AVR is just worth 3 incremental DB right? Does that mean that at all volume levels your will be roughly 3DB hotter than you would be with that AVR until you reach it's limits? So if you set the gain on your AVR +3DB at a given volume level you would have roughly the same SPL as with the 200WPC AMP? Probably not that simply but wondering if that's how it works.

For myself, I bought Amps for Headroom to deliver on Dynamic Peaks. I also wanted my primary 5 channels used in 5.1 audio to be powered in the most uniform manner.
For me, it was that simple.
I had no expectation of changes in SQ. I do not have speakers that are particularly hard to drive. They are not the most sensitive speakers, and thus require a bit more juice to clear reference level dynamic peaks.
It is important to note that I do not push them that hard on anything near a regular basis. On occasion, I may, and it is for the enjoyment of those moments that I invested in my Amps.

Now you asked a separate question about bumping AVR trim:
Until you push the trim into positive numbers, you are relatively safe. The negative trim is attenuating available ‘power.’ When you switch over to positive trim, you are creating a demand for something that, as I understand it, is not there. This demand must be fulfilled by DSP, and is the fastest route to distortion. You are requiring the signal to be boosted beyond what the Amp Stage of an AVR is designed for.
Forgive: I am not an expert on this and am sharing simply what I understand. As I have done in the past: corrections are welcome! Please.

Basically, appropriate amplification will be done outside of the digital domain and within the parameters of matching the output voltage to the input sensitivity for achieving full power from an external Amp. When applied properly, the signal from preout to amp is not altered in any way where colorations or distortions are added.

I hope this makes sense. And as I said before, I welcome any correction to help me learn in the event I am wrong on any point.

Cheers!

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Most receiver power ratings are based on two channels. If your 105W or 125W per channel receiver is used with 9 channels, power availability can drop to 70% of the quoted value, dropping to 73W or 87W per channel. If the multi-channel stereo function is selected at higher volumes it can breach these limits. A quality 200W+ amp can offer almost 3x the headroom.

In addition, many speakers are designed for 4 ohm loads and may dip somewhat lower. Lower speaker sensitivity can also drain power. There are many variables where increased power headroom can offer a benefit.

I like trying out different speakers without being concerned about power needs. Having a setup with more robust amplifiers allows support for just about any speaker configuration. You also have the opportunity to operate at low distortion levels even with highly dynamic content. There are many scenarios where a quality external amp can be a viable option.

 

[Kleinst]

Thanks to you both for your replies

I do find that where I think my AMPs (Outlaw 7500, Monolith 7) really shine is when turned up and still getting very clear and dynamic sound. Now would I have got that with my AVR alone? I can’t remember to be honest.

it’s hard to imagine that my 90 pound AMPs don’t bring more to the table that a simple 3db bump. But I know that’s what the numbers say.

Anyway, sometimes we buy for the sport of it cause it’s my hobby and it might not be the best investment for relative SQ gain, but it’s
Cool and Fun

 

[pcosmic]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts, I now got the understanding on amp. Since I cannot return the amp, have to live with it cursing my decision.
I am looking for guidance on placing the Sub in position where I could get the best out of it. Also was not able use the REW as don’t know the right method, tried following guides from YouTube, was not successful. I did try Dirac of Arcam. My manual setup was better than Dirac live output. In manual setup, I have done the following
Set the correct distance of all speakers, set the levels, cross over frequency at 80,

Appreciate if you can share a Guide / your suggestions on using the REW and DIrac live.

Sell the Marantz on ebay or some hifi forum more local to your country (someone might bite).

If you insist on buying an amp, you could buy a push/pull or SET tube amp from Chinahifi. It will have way less power than what you have (can't be a powermutt around tubes). But, at the least, it will add variety or be a change. It could make everything sound tubey and work out well for certain types of music.

You are Indian? Listen to some Ravi Shankar or Buddhadev DasGupta on good tubes. You'll end up crying like a baby. Your country has incredibly talented musicians.

 

[PENG]

Actually, from my experience adding amps is like placing money in a negative interest bearing account, buying a car or any other item that suffers from significant depreciation...

It sounds like the user was expecting punchier bass or midrange by adding an external amp. He did not realize a good hifi amp offers neutral SQ.

Good to know you realize that though..

 

[highfigh]

If punchier bass was your goal I would suggest a subwoofer. You may also want to consider REW with a Umik to decide if adjusting bass EQ might be helpful.

VTF-3 MK5 HP Subwoofer

The new VTF-3 MK5 HP sets a new standard for high-end performance at an affordable price point. It’s earned its reputation as one of the best value ported 15" subwoofers on the market. Customer favorite and best seller Smaller enclosure than the VTF-15H MK2 (4” less depth) and lighter, but...

www.hsuresearch.com

Punch comes from mid-bass and a lot of speakers don't provide that- so many are a bit too 'polite'.

 

[Kleinst]

Punch comes from mid-bass and a lot of speakers don't provide that- so many are a bit too 'polite'.

What range is that mid bass punch coming from? Maybe 50-80?

 

[highfigh]

What range is that mid bass punch coming from? Maybe 50-80?

100+Hz. The lowest frequencies make it rumble.

Listen to music with well-recorded bass guitar- a four string bass is tuned EADG and the fundamental frequency of the E string is 41.2Hz, but what we generally hear from that string is the first harmonic which is double that frequency, at 82.4Hz. Go up the musical scale and you'll hear punch coming in about 1/2 octave higher.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

What range is that mid bass punch coming from? Maybe 50-80?

Well IMO, midbass punch is like 35-80 or 100. Many of the old “bass knobs” were centered at 50hz. Iirc, SVS’s “music” preset is at 63hz, and that’s designed to give midbass punch, but it also combines with upper harmonics too, so it may not be that simple. Also, people’s chest cavities resonate at different frequencies too!
Punch is also very much a product of spl. At lower volumes, you might find fullness, or a little weight by raising the midbass range. But you sound get punched until you have appropriate SPL.

 

[sanjay.s]

Hi,
Need advice on the streaming device. I am currently using Spotify from Arcam 390 and Tidal from Apple TV. Would adding Cambridge CXN be a worth upgrade to get best SQ,

 

[PENG]

Hi,
Need advice on the streaming device. I am currently using Spotify from Arcam 390 and Tidal from Apple TV. Would adding Cambridge CXN be a worth upgrade to get best SQ,

Given what you have now, best SQ would depends on the SQ of the source contents, not by chasing electronics. So imo, no, it wouldn't be..

 

[highfigh]

Well IMO, midbass punch is like 35-80 or 100. Many of the old “bass knobs” were centered at 50hz. Iirc, SVS’s “music” preset is at 63hz, and that’s designed to give midbass punch, but it also combines with upper harmonics too, so it may not be that simple. Also, people’s chest cavities resonate at different frequencies too!
Punch is also very much a product of spl. At lower volumes, you might find fullness, or a little weight by raising the midbass range. But you sound get punched until you have appropriate SPL.

35Hz IS NOT midbass. Most speakers can't even do 35Hz well, in a real world situation. With good mid-bass, the bass line, kick drum and low notes from synths will still be apparent when using low notes if the mid-bass has been accentuated and the speakers can handle it (which most speakers can, some better than others). When music is mastered, they often use small monitors to make sure it sounds good if a car radio, boom box or other small system is used for playback- full bandwidth is for the big systems, but they use technology to give mid-bass more presence. Again, the E string on a bass guitar is tuned to 41.2 Hz and what we hear, unless the string is plucked or picked at the mid-point, is the first harmonic, at 82.4 Hz. That E note at the first harmonic sounds pretty low, too.

You're right- peoples' bodies don't resonate at the same frequencies but it's not as easy to make low notes 'hit' harder

 

[sanjay.s]

Given what you have now, best SQ would depends on the SQ of the source contents, not by chasing electronics. So imo, no, it wouldn't be..

Hmm. Thank you for your Suggestion.