Seprates combo, how does it work? Combo suggestions?

M

MacCali

Full Audioholic
Hello and thank you in advanced for trying to help me in my journey as a beginner in home theaters.

So just for anyone that is wondering, I had a previous post and I have scraped those ideas.

I am now looking into Elac Unifi, Unifi 2.0, and in very last place the Adantes, and less oriented on dolby atmos, but would still like to leave the option available. I did not have any real experience with speakers besides sound bars.

So I have been told by the audio store I went too, which doesn't sell this line of products. So it wasn't a sale pitch, suggested that I go with an Emotiva amp, honestly after reviewing it it seems like it is pretty powerful. Correct me if I am wrong. Probably? way more than what I need

The suggestion was made because the Elac speakers I am looking at are 4 ohms and they suggested that it's not a good idea to run a load like that with weak amp. Definitely more power is better but that also means more money on AVRs. So they suggested going with a separates.

Seems like it makes the most sense.

So I checked out the Emotiva XPA-9 seems to have the best balance vs price of the picks. Would really like to get your thoughts on this.

So we got that out the way, now my question is what can I pair this with that is sufficient to my 5.1 or eventually 5.2.4 max system?

I think logic would say whatever channels your amp has your AVR or processor would need to obviously make those work, amps without a feed are useless.

I know absolutely nothing about this stuff. What comes to mind is that can I get a trash AVR with like lets say 75 w per channel or even less that is 9 channels and save money?
Can it possibly work this way?

Ive been crazy overthinking this and it's been kind of obnoxious.

My last question, if I go with the Unifi 2.0 those are much more forgiving. How much power do you think I would really need to make to get the best out of them?
If I go with denon per say the AVR I would need is 6000 or 8000 range, 2500 or 4000. I mean why would I choose that over seperates?

If I went with the Emotiva XPA 9 and Denon 3700H, would that not work and be cheaper? Not sure which AVR's are capable of preamps or whatever requirement to make them work as seperates.

I am certain there are way better options, possibly cheaper or more expensive and I am looking to get your thoughts and opinions. Screw dolby atmos if I can get a way better deal. Money is the most considerable factor without losing massive performance or capabilities of the speakers.

Sorry I know this is filled with a lot of questions, whatever you may get to answer helps.
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
So I have been told by the audio store I went too, which doesn't sell this line of products. So it wasn't a sale pitch, suggested that I go with an Emotiva amp
Most here are going to tell you to stay away from Emotiva
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord

 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
An AVR with a stable amp section like a Denon or Marantz will drive those speakers without the use of an external amp.
Unless your sitting far away, in a large room, and listen at loud volumes consistently. An AVR should work just fine. You could always add an amp if you feel your driving the AVR to hard.

Save the cash. Buy better speakers
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I am now looking into Elac Unifi, Unifi 2.0, and in very last place the Adantes, and less oriented on dolby atmos, but would still like to leave the option available. I did not have any real experience with speakers besides sound bars.
I tried looking for Elac's info on these speakers. The Elac web site was down for maintenance, so I found nothing. To guess what kind of power these speakers need, you'll need to know several bits of info. See below.

I was able to find this for the Un-ifi UB5 from a review by The Absolute Sound. These numbers are probably taken from what Elac says, but Elac was offline, so I can't be certain about that. For what it's worth, the Amazon page for these speakers had the same info.

Sensitivity: 85dB
This means when they are given 1 watt (or 2.83 Volts) and measured at 1 meter distance, they produce sound that is 85dB loud. That's low, but to be expected for a smaller speaker. So it might be an honest number.

Nominal impedance: 4 ohms; minimum 3.4 ohms
This alone doesn't tell us enough. Better if we could see a graph that shows Impedance vs. Frequency because impedance is not a constant value, it varies with frequency. If the impedance minimum value of 3.4 ohms is genuine, I would want to see that graph to know what frequency the minimum occurs at. If it occurs in the bass range below 200 Hz, it could indicate you might need a big iron amp. Frankly, I'd look for different speakers that are easier to drive.

Recommended amplifier power: 40 to 140Wpc
I'd stick with that recommendation for now. If true, these speakers don't seem difficult to drive. Most AVRs on the market should be able to drive them. That would also be consistent with their price. At $300/pair, I would not expect to have to buy a $2,000 stand-alone amp such as that Emotive XPA-9.
So I have been told by the audio store I went too, which doesn't sell this line of products. So it wasn't a sale pitch, suggested that I go with an Emotiva amp, honestly after reviewing it it seems like it is pretty powerful. Correct me if I am wrong. Probably? way more than what I need
Yes, that Emotiva is way more than what you probably need.

I'd look for a Denon, Marantz, or Yamaha AVR with enough channels to suit your present & future needs, that is somewhere in the upper end of the 40 to 140 watt/channel range. Look for these features:
  • Stable at 4 ohms
  • Multiple channel pre-out (If you decide at a later time that you want an external amp, you can use the AVR as a pre-amp. You won't need one of those expensive pre-amps.)
If you search on Accessories4Less, you can filter a search to include those features, as well as others. Look on the left panel on the A4L page. I did that search for a Denon, stable at 4 ohms, with multiple pre-outs. The link shows 8 possible AVRs. I think the Denon AVR-X3500H, AVR-X3600H, and AVR-X-4200H look like they would be good for you. You decide how much you want to spend.

A4L is a reputable authorized dealer that sells factory refurbished products and last year's models, all of which come with a factory warranty.
The suggestion was made because the Elac speakers I am looking at are 4 ohms and they suggested that it's not a good idea to run a load like that with weak amp. Definitely more power is better but that also means more money on AVRs. So they suggested going with a separates.
Based on that suggestion, I would stay away from that dealer. It was certainly not helpful, and it may have been dishonest. Until we find out for certain, I don't think these speakers need such a powerful amp.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Patience, grasshopper :)

If you like the idea of an external amp, an avr like some of the newer Denons that can act more purely as a preamp by cutting off the internal amp section. You can see how well the Denon avrs have done in measurements at audiosciencereview.com. A 3700 would do nicely I'd think. Not a lot of choice in pre-pros at reasonable prices, Yamaha and Marantz come to mind as far as full featured units go....there are some boutique brands as well but they tend to be higher priced. Some like to chase a particular room eq program like Audyssey XT32 on the Denon/Marantz, or YPAO/PEQ on the Yamaha, maybe Dirac or Anthem Room Correction on some of the offerings from NAD and Anthem.

Power amps I'd lean towards ATI and the offerings they built from Outlaw, Monolith or even pro amps from Crown or QSC.

I'd try and save money on the electronics as much as possible and get the speakers/subs most of the attention. Elac's never gotten much attention from me but I've never had a chance to play with them nor pay much attention to their lineup. They do tend to low impedance from what I've read. Good luck in your choices!
 
M

MacCali

Full Audioholic
I tried looking for Elac's info on these speakers. The Elac web site was down for maintenance, so I found nothing. To guess what kind of power these speakers need, you'll need to know several bits of info. See below.

I was able to find this for the Un-ifi UB5 from a review by The Absolute Sound. These numbers are probably taken from what Elac says, but Elac was offline, so I can't be certain about that. For what it's worth, the Amazon page for these speakers had the same info.

Sensitivity: 85dB
This means when they are given 1 watt (or 2.83 Volts) and measured at 1 meter distance, they produce sound that is 85dB loud. That's low, but to be expected for a smaller speaker. So it might be an honest number.

Nominal impedance: 4 ohms; minimum 3.4 ohms
This alone doesn't tell us enough. Better if we could see a graph that shows Impedance vs. Frequency because impedance is not a constant value, it varies with frequency. If the impedance minimum value of 3.4 ohms is genuine, I would want to see that graph to know what frequency the minimum occurs at. If it occurs in the bass range below 200 Hz, it could be a problem.

Recommended amplifier power: 40 to 140Wpc
I'd stick with that recommendation for now. These speakers don't seem difficult to drive. Most AVRs on the market should be able to drive them. That would also be consistent with their price. At $300/pair, I would not expect to have to buy a $2,000 stand-alone amp such as that Emotive XPA-9.
Yes, that Emotiva is way more than what you probably need.
Yea the regular site is down. The guy who was helping was just a salesman. Im not sure if that's what he tells everybody or was programmed too or is just pulling nonsense out his butt.

He said you want to go with more power for lower ohms, and that 175 200 Wpc was his suggestions. Otherwise the speaker is basically going to be asleep the entire time.

I also get the notion that too much power can cause damage.

He mentioned about clipping, which I believe is from lack of power?

I mean with my previous speakers I was going with the denon 4400H but debating if I should wait until black friday for the 4700H.

Ive just read in some previous forums that 4 ohms has basically destroyed their AVRs, I dont know if they were just over working it or not, so it got me kind of concerned and further made me believe what that salesman was saying.

Im just basically trying to make sure everything is working properly.

Also in the salesman's defense, I am not sure cause we were already into it, if he was possibly talking about the adantes or the regular uni-fi's. Like i said i believe both are 4 ohms.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Do you already own a Denon AVR-X4400H? If yes, I'd keep it and try those Elac speakers. I think it will work fine.

Denon's spec sheet says:
The AVR-X4400H features a sophisticated power amplifier section with all 9 channels configured identically, employing discrete high-current capable power transistors. Each channel is rated at 125 watts (8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, THD 0.05%, 2ch Driven) and all channels are able to safely drive lower impedance speakers (down to 4 ohms).​
 
M

MacCali

Full Audioholic
Save the cash. Buy better speakers
You think if I bought the Adantes, that I would be just fine with 150Wpc?

I just replied to @Swerd and like I said I mean ive just done some searches and on some forums people have said that the 4 ohm speakers basically fried their AVRs way sooner than normal. Not like it exploded.

I know denon and marantz are sister companies or whatever, some affiliation. Denon says you can use 4 ohm speakers even if it's not stated, but the unit will shut off for protection if something isn't right. So I would assume the same goes for marantz.

Im trying to save money man, I am currently out of work. So im home a lot and I watch movies and listen to music. So im trying to see what works best.

They got those Adantes 5 channel setup for 4700, that seems like a very tempting deal vs the actual price. Yes, they are all demos. But the original floors are like 4 k for a pair center is 2k and bookshelves were 2500 for a pair.

Basically 50% off but I really shouldn't be doing that cause that's way out of my budget. It is optional because I can finance. But what got me worried is the whole AVR/Separates situation because that's going to be another 3k with interconnects and I cant do that for certain

Second, this is my first ever home theater anything will basically knock my socks off.

I think Elacs can do the trick, especially since i can get the 5 channels for $1000 as an option. The cheaper debuts 2.0 are running 1800 for 5.1 and in my opinion weren't that good at all.
 
M

MacCali

Full Audioholic
Do you already own a Denon AVR-X4400H? If yes, I'd keep it and try those Elac speakers. I think it will work fine.

Denon's spec sheet says:
The AVR-X4400H features a sophisticated power amplifier section with all 9 channels configured identically, employing discrete high-current capable power transistors. Each channel is rated at 125 watts (8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, THD 0.05%, 2ch Driven) and all channels are able to safely drive lower impedance speakers (down to 4 ohms).​
Unfortunately I do not, that's why I have more additional costs to cope with as a whole. This is my first home theater system, so it's basically wait and grab the 4700H on black friday or go with the 4400H just to save money.

My TV is 4k/240, so im trying to get at least 4k/120 out of the AVR. That was my situation already from the get go, which was confusing. For all I know everything is running at 4k/120, but my TV can go up to 240. that's another discussion we dont want to get into lol
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
The 4400 would be a fine start and has a full set of pre-outs if you want to add external amplification later on. It's about the levels you listen at. Unused power remains just that...unused. Much of the time you'll only need a handful of watts with reasonably sensitive speakers. Can't help you with the 4k needs but pretty sure 240 hz is just an internal "enhancement" tv thing, not a content thing so no reason for the avr to deal with it. Might want to play around with an spl calculator http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
 
M

MacCali

Full Audioholic
I'd try and save money on the electronics as much as possible and get the speakers/subs most of the attention. Elac's never gotten much attention from me but I've never had a chance to play with them nor pay much attention to their lineup. They do tend to low impedance from what I've read. Good luck in your choices!
I totally agree with you, but the thing is again ignorance creates fear and confusion. In this matter I am very ignorant so it's getting a little overwhelming. I trust what all of you say, I am again just trying to avoid any situation of investing too little and get something that's going to break rather than invest more for something that will last twice as long.

But yea foolish people just dumping fuel on my fire isn't helpful, like that salesman.
 
M

MacCali

Full Audioholic
The 4400 would be a fine start and has a full set of pre-outs if you want to add external amplification later on. It's about the levels you listen at. Unused power remains just that...unused. Much of the time you'll only need a handful of watts with reasonably sensitive speakers. Can't help you with the 4k needs but pretty sure 240 hz is just an internal "enhancement" tv thing, not a content thing so no reason for the avr to deal with it. Might want to play around with an spl calculator http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
Yes, well the only thing that would apply is really video game consoles which I dont got, but if I use a 4K player to connect to the TV via AVR than that would just create downscaling and loss of quality.

If I stream from my tv than I will get the full resolution if the movie/show whatever is at 4k/240. I think a lot of it is 4k/120.

But 4k/60fps is definitely going to be 50% as good.

I would say 15-20% of what I watch is on my 4k player, so that's why I went with the 4400H. Because I mostly stream
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I totally agree with you, but the thing is again ignorance creates fear and confusion. In this matter I am very ignorant so it's getting a little overwhelming. I trust what all of you say, I am again just trying to avoid any situation of investing too little and get something that's going to break rather than invest more for something that will last twice as long.

But yea foolish people just dumping fuel on my fire isn't helpful, like that salesman.
I don't listen to salesmen, haven't found one worth listening to. I'm more a "take my chance with the internet direct" guy for the last several years as I'm nowhere near any stores carrying any variety of gear for auditions. However, I would recommend listening to a lot of speakers, or at least severa, before settling on the Elacs. SVS and RSL have wonderful offers for in-home auditions (which is the best room to audition in) and return freight prepaid should you want to return them. Ascend Acoustics is an internet direct speaker company I've had good results from, as well as others here but you have to pay return freight if you want to return. I do tend to prefer higher sensitivity speakers and higher impedance so as to not need as much from amps even though I have a bunch of amps to use (and I generally use just the avr amps these days for my listening levels) :)
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
You think if I bought the Adantes, that I would be just fine with 150Wpc?

like I said I mean ive just done some searches and on some forums people have said that the 4 ohm speakers basically fried their AVRs way sooner than normal. Not like it exploded.

Im trying to save money man

They got those Adantes 5 channel setup for 4700, that seems like a very tempting deal vs the actual price. Yes, they are all demos. But the original floors are like 4 k for a pair center is 2k and bookshelves were 2500 for a pair.
I know nothing about the Adante's. So I can't comment on Sound Quality

You want to save money? DO THIS
Use your 4400. If you feel its running to Hot or its being Stressed. Purchase two Outlaw 2220 amps to drive the main L/R. $699 instead of spending $3000

 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yes, well the only thing that would apply is really video game consoles which I dont got, but if I use a 4K player to connect to the TV via AVR than that would just create downscaling and loss of quality.

If I stream from my tv than I will get the full resolution if the movie/show whatever is at 4k/240. I think a lot of it is 4k/120.

But 4k/60fps is definitely going to be 50% as good.

I would say 15-20% of what I watch is on my 4k player, so that's why I went with the 4400H. Because I mostly stream
Not the most up on my video but what streaming is 4k/240? I think it's 4k/30 maybe 60; your streaming device maybe upscaling. A bluray will be 24 or 60. Your tv basically multiplies the frequency for that feature. Now if it's games I don't know, don't play them.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
You think if I bought the Adantes, that I would be just fine with 150Wpc?

I just replied to @Swerd and like I said I mean ive just done some searches and on some forums people have said that the 4 ohm speakers basically fried their AVRs way sooner than normal. Not like it exploded.

I know denon and marantz are sister companies or whatever, some affiliation. Denon says you can use 4 ohm speakers even if it's not stated, but the unit will shut off for protection if something isn't right. So I would assume the same goes for marantz.

Im trying to save money man, I am currently out of work. So im home a lot and I watch movies and listen to music. So im trying to see what works best.

They got those Adantes 5 channel setup for 4700, that seems like a very tempting deal vs the actual price. Yes, they are all demos. But the original floors are like 4 k for a pair center is 2k and bookshelves were 2500 for a pair.

Basically 50% off but I really shouldn't be doing that cause that's way out of my budget. It is optional because I can finance. But what got me worried is the whole AVR/Separates situation because that's going to be another 3k with interconnects and I cant do that for certain

Second, this is my first ever home theater anything will basically knock my socks off.

I think Elacs can do the trick, especially since i can get the 5 channels for $1000 as an option. The cheaper debuts 2.0 are running 1800 for 5.1 and in my opinion weren't that good at all.
Are you thinking of the bookshelf Elac Adante AS-61 speakers, or the Adante AF-61 floor standing speakers?

Going from one receiver with 125 wpc to another with 150 wpc is such a small difference that it wouldn't matter. To increase power enough to hear the difference, doubling the power to 250 wpc might not be enough. Increasing the power 10-fold is unrealistic. Instead, look to increase power roughly 3-fold, the square root of a 10-fold increase.

Personally, I'd keep the Denon 4400 AVR. If you want to increase power, buy an external 2-channel amp. Use it to drive your front left & front right speakers, connecting the AVR's pre-amp outputs to the external amp for those channels. Use the AVR to drive the center channel and the rear channel speakers. That relieves the AVR from the burden of driving the 2 main speakers. It costs less than buying a large multi-channel amp.

Edit: This is very similar to what mazersteven suggested.
 
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M

MacCali

Full Audioholic
Are you thinking of the bookshelf Elac Adante AS-61 speakers, or the Adante AF-61 floor standing speakers?
Well I do not own anything at the moment. So the options are open, I get what you are saying and I think it makes the most sense all around.

Yes, AS-61 AF-61 and the AC-61, the entire 5 channel set up was in that offer. Not sure about any info on those guys, besides general stuff on crutchfield.

They are all discontinued but were top or top mid tier in the Elac line up in their hay day.

I mean they sound amazing, actually like way overkill. But I was contemplating if that was just their equipment cause they had some crazy expensive crap there they are wiring up the speakers with that I probably I definitely dont have.

I dont know if I replied to your comment or not, the AF-61 were 4k, AS-61 were 2500, and AC-61 was 2000.

So they are offering the entire demo set for 4700.
 
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