Proof That ALL Amplifiers Don't Sound the Same - Yes they definitely not

[JBL2004_RGXCMBCA]

I recently watched a very educational discussion about Amplifiers that was presented by Mr.Gene DellaSala

I own a complete JBL home theater system (Northridge series - Front L/R - ND 310ii (250W) , Surround L/R N38ii (175), surround back N-Center L/R (150W) , Center -S-Center (150W) and PB10 10150W) subwoofer.

The whole setup was powered using a Harman Kardon AVR 525 (7.1) receiver.

"Audio Section Stereo Mode Continuous Average Power (FTC)
85 Watts per channel,20Hz–20kHz, @ <0.07% THD,both channels driven into 8 ohms
Seven-Channel Surround Modes Power per Individual Channel
Front L&R channels: 70 Watts per channel @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz–20kHz into 8 ohms
Center channel: 70 Watts @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz–20kHz into 8 ohms
Surround (L & R Side,L & R back) channels: 70 Watts per channel @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz–20kHz into 8 ohms

Full Disclosure Power (all channels are driven simultaneously)
Frequency Response @ 1W (+0dB, –3dB) 10Hz –100kHz
High Instantaneous Current Capability (HCC) ±45 Amps
Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM) Unmeasurable
Slew Rate 40V/µsec"

As an upgrade in 2018, I bought a Marantz NR1606 (7.2),
"With discrete circuit technology, the power amplifier provides identical quality for all 7-channels (70 Watts x 7-channels) For optimum realism and stunning dynamic range, the power amplifier section features discrete power devices (not integrated circuitry). By using high current, high power discrete power devices, the amplifier is able to easily drive high-quality speakers. "

Power amplifier Rated output: Front: 50 W + 50 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.) 70 W + 70 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.) Center: 50 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.) 70 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.) Surround: 50 W + 50 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.) 70 W + 70 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.) Surround back: 50 W + 50 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.) 70 W + 70 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.)

Since my speakers were rated at 8 ohms, the new amp is only able to push at 50W max. My assumption was I truly didn't push the HK 525 hard to get the volume to a good level. But the Marantz NT 1606 couldn't match the output at the same db levels of volume.

Is it because of the 70W vs 50W difference?

why am I seeing almost all receivers specifying its capabilities, in multi-channel receivers as below? 2 channels drive?

"140 watts per channel into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.08% THD, with 2 channels driven."

How do I consider/find a perfect replacement for my HK-AVR 525 7.1 Receiver?

 

[lovinthehd]

The Marantz slimline avrs just don't have very beefy amp sections, somewhat a penalty for their form factor. They can advertise higher numbers using 1ch driven or 2ch driven so they do (or at specific impedance like 6 ohm, and/or at high THD) and that's allowed somewhat as to how FTC amp rules are written/enforced.

While all channels driven (ACD) ratings aren't particularly important in real use, it can be indicative of larger power supplies used or not....or such can also be limited due to deliberate protection designs as well. It could be a combination of impedance demands as well as power supply in your case, altho the difference between equal ratings of 50 to 70 watts is only 1.5dB. Could also be gain structure and how you set up the avr to an extent as to your experience. Marantz/Denon have avrs where they indicate the ACD will be at least 70% of the 2ch rating. You can also check bench tests of avrs for actual results of power testing.

Your speaker having a nominal impedance of 8 ohms doesn't mean they can't have times where their impedance dips to 4 ohm or have odd phase angles. Try this article https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/understanding-impedance-electrical-phase/page-2

Perfect replacement I don't know....but probably a more powerful amp section than that slimline Marantz, say something from their 6xxx and up series. For Denon I'd check units in the 3xxx series and up, and Yamaha the 10xx and up series.

Another option is to get an avr with pre-outs in addition to that of a sub, so you have external amplification options. The series I mention above all have full sets of pre-outs. The Marantz you have does have L/R preouts as well as sub, so you could take some of the load off the avr that way, too.

 

[ski2xblack]

The vast majority of audible differences are clipping related, both in the amount of clipping and how the amp recovers from those conditions.

In either case, both options you mentioned are modestly powered. Since good clean watts are available, consider a more powerful model, or one that can accommodate external amps (which the slimline Marantz avrs can, at least for front channels).

 

[KEW]

I'm pretty sure that AVR has preouts for the 2 front channels (L&R). You might see if you can borrow a 2 channel amp and see if that totally fixes your problem, or just partially fixes it, before you replace the AVR.
The content of the surround channels is usually fairly light, so that only leaves the center to put a significant demand on the AVR's amp section!
If you don't have an amp you can borrow, I believe bestbuy has a 14 day return policy.

 

[Verdinut]

FTC Rules on audio amplifier specifications are no longer enforced. That's why manufacturers publish the specs the way they want with all sorts of figures.

 

[PENG]

Since my speakers were rated at 8 ohms, the new amp is only able to push at 50W max. My assumption was I truly didn't push the HK 525 hard to get the volume to a good level. But the Marantz NT 1606 couldn't match the output at the same db levels of volume.

Please clarify what you meant by this. If you are referring to the spl measured at the same volume position, that means little when you are comparing two different AVR that likely have different gain structure and volume display/scaling.

Is it because of the 70W vs 50W difference?

The difference between 70 W and 50 W is less than 1.5 dB, but yes it could be the reason if you are in fact pushing the Marantz to its limit. But no if you are not pushing either unit hard, or even close to their limit.

why am I seeing almost all receivers specifying its capabilities, in multi-channel receivers as below? 2 channels drive?

"140 watts per channel into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.08% THD, with 2 channels driven."

They typically follow certain standards, albeit loosely in some cases. One thing about Marantz, and Denon too, is that they apparently guarantee their multichannel output (Edit: up to 7 5 channels if I remember right) to be at least 70% of their specified two channel driven output.

How do I consider/find a perfect replacement for my HK-AVR 525 7.1 Receiver?

Based on specs and historic measurements, I would say something like the Yamaha RX-A880, Denon AVR-X3600H, Marantz SR6014 should be good, as to "perfect replacement" that sounds subjective so I can say anything about that, not even sure what that really mean to begin with.

If pre-outs are not needed then the Denon AVR-X2600H, Marantz SR5014 should give you more power output than the HK AVR525. Ignore the weight difference, HK receivers in that vintage tended to be heavy. All else being equal, lighter weight should actually be considered a plus.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Bottom line is that I and my predecessors in this thread agree on one thing: "ALL Amplifiers Don't Sound the Same Extremely similar" only then they are working within their defined and engineered capabilities to provide clean power. Which isn't the case in your scenario.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I certainly wouldn't call that Marantz an upgrade on the HK.

Marantz makes a unique line of products with their slim-line AV receivers. They are one of the only products in existence which can fit into a more compact cabinet space. This is critical when you have under-designed a cabinet for proper airflow and need to go to a smaller AV receiver which isn't packed in with a ton of other electronics that can make it overheat and shut down/die. I've personally replaced systems which have had full sized receivers in compact spaces because the old receiver just up and died due to heatstroke.

But, the HK pretty clearly was a more powerful beast.

Since your speakers are very capable of delivering on their power capabilities, I expect that you should be looking at 200 watt+ amps to run the show.

Yes, the Marantz does have pre-outs for the front left/right speakers, and connecting them to an external amplifier may be a good way to go if you can do so.

If you have the room, then there are some other options in amplifiers which I would consider a pretty significant upgrade over a slim-line Marantz receiver, especially when it comes to power deliverance capabilities.

 

[lovinthehd]

FWIW believe that the Denon/Marantz 70% thing applies to 5ch driven now that @PENG mentions it....

 

[Verdinut]

FWIW believe that the Denon/Marantz 70% thing applies to 5ch driven now that @PENG mentions it....

Where did you get that info saying that the power output guarantee applied to only 5 channels? The percentage but the number of channels is not specified in the manufacturers' published specs.

 

[KEW]

Where did you get that info saying that the power output guarantee applied to only 5 channels? The number of channels is not specified in the manufacturer's published specs.

I have seen Gene address it in his reviews of D&M gear.
I'm sure they have it somewhere in their literature, but the reviews here are the only reason I am aware of it!

 

[lovinthehd]

Where did you get that info saying that the power output guarantee applied to only 5 channels? The number of channels is not specified in the manufacturers' published specs.

I'd seen it a while back when someone else brought it up and it has been commented in other fora (here at AH for example like KEW mentions) plus bench tests seem to bear it out From the Marantz glossary of terms (I think Denon has the same but didn't look specifically for a Denon example).

70% Power Guarantee Marantz has the 70% power guarantee, meaning that a minimum of 70% of the stereo power indicated in the specification section will be available when 5 channels are simultaneously used. A lot of misunderstanding about power rating has been created by claiming the highest possible output power as a unique selling point. Measurement often has been done on only 1 speaker drive, with lower impedance than 8 ohms and high THD (total harmonic distortion) acceptance. A standard THD value is 0.08%. The lower the better.

 

[KEW]

Based on specs and historic measurements, I would say something like the Yamaha RX-A880, Denon AVR-X3600H, Marantz SR6014 should be good

Based on the AH measurements of earlier generations of these two units, the Yamaha A860 and the Denon AVR-X3300h, the Yamaha seemed like a severe disappointment and Gene actually mentions the Yamaha in the Denon review to contrast how the Denon got it right!
My understanding was that the Yamaha was a unit to avoid (especially if the amp section is a concern)!
What am I missing?

Yamaha RX-A860 AVENTAGE 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A860 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X AV receiver is packed with excellent networking features but it does fall short on power delivery making our recommendation conditional based on usage.

www.audioholics.com

Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X networking AV receiver features the latest in HD audio and video processing, music streaming and offers future expandability with solid preamp outputs.

www.audioholics.com

 

[PENG]

I'd seen it a while back when someone else brought it up and it has been commented in other fora (here at AH for example like KEW mentions) plus bench tests seem to bear it out From the Marantz glossary of terms (I think Denon has the same but didn't look specifically for a Denon example).

70% Power Guarantee Marantz has the 70% power guarantee, meaning that a minimum of 70% of the stereo power indicated in the specification section will be available when 5 channels are simultaneously used. A lot of misunderstanding about power rating has been created by claiming the highest possible output power as a unique selling point. Measurement often has been done on only 1 speaker drive, with lower impedance than 8 ohms and high THD (total harmonic distortion) acceptance. A standard THD value is 0.08%. The lower the better.

I don't think Denon has mentioned the same guarantee but given their similarity (identical amp sections for comparable models), it is a safe assumption that the 4500/6500 would meet the 70% criteria as well.

 

[Verdinut]

I'd seen it a while back when someone else brought it up and it has been commented in other fora (here at AH for example like KEW mentions) plus bench tests seem to bear it out From the Marantz glossary of terms (I think Denon has the same but didn't look specifically for a Denon example).

70% Power Guarantee Marantz has the 70% power guarantee, meaning that a minimum of 70% of the stereo power indicated in the specification section will be available when 5 channels are simultaneously used. A lot of misunderstanding about power rating has been created by claiming the highest possible output power as a unique selling point. Measurement often has been done on only 1 speaker drive, with lower impedance than 8 ohms and high THD (total harmonic distortion) acceptance. A standard THD value is 0.08%. The lower the better.

Marantz publish the 70% power guarantee in their specs for some of their AVRs, but Denon doesn't seem to. I've just perused on Denon's website the info on the X3600H model and there's no such indication.

 

[PENG]

Based on the AH measurements of earlier generations of these two units, the Yamaha A860 and the Denon AVR-X3300h, the Yamaha seemed like a severe disappointment and Gene actually mentions the Yamaha in the Denon review to contrast how the Denon got it right!
My understanding was that the Yamaha was a unit to avoid (especially if the amp section is a concern)!
What am I missing?

Yamaha RX-A860 AVENTAGE 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A860 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X AV receiver is packed with excellent networking features but it does fall short on power delivery making our recommendation conditional based on usage.

www.audioholics.com

Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X networking AV receiver features the latest in HD audio and video processing, music streaming and offers future expandability with solid preamp outputs.

www.audioholics.com

You are right, I assume the 880 is better, but even if it is, it won't be as powerful as the HK AVR525 except in two channel driven only. So the Denon and Marantz, or RX-A1080 will be a little closer to being what he might consider "perfect replacement" assuming he no longer needs those legacy connections.

Yamaha RX-A1080 (Test)

audiovision.de

Yamaha RX-A1020 A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures

HT Labs Measures Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 113.5 watts 1% distortion at 129.2 watts Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 63.9 watts 1% distortion at 73.2 watts Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1%...

www.soundandvision.com

Harman/Kardon AVR 630 Receiver HT Labs Measures

HT Labs Measures: Harman/Kardon AVR 630 Five channels driven into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 79.7 watts; 1% distortion at 93.3 watts Analog frequency response in direct mode: –0.35 dB at 10 Hz; –0.12 dB at 20 Hz; –0.13 dB at 20 kHz; –0.72 dB at 50 kHz. Analog frequency response with signal...

www.soundandvision.com

Note that the 630 has a slightly higher rated output spec than the 525 but there were no measurements found on the www for the 525 so the 630 will have to be used for reference.

We pretty much have to include some Yamaha models regardless, as ADTG may be watching you know..

 

[lovinthehd]

Marantz publish the 70% power guarantee in their specs for some of their AVRs, but Denon doesn't seem to. I've just perused on Denon's website the info on the X3600H model and there's no such indication.

I don't think I've specifically seen it from Denon either but not sure aside from mentions in fora of D&M....but like Peng says, their amp sections are pretty similar. I know my Denon can do it in 7ch driven, tho don't think I've seen bench tests bearing that out and it could well be model based for both?

 

[PENG]

I don't think I've specifically seen it from Denon either but not sure aside from mentions in fora of D&M....but like Peng says, their amp sections are pretty similar. I know my Denon can do it in 7ch driven, tho don't think I've seen bench tests bearing that out and it could well be model based for both?

If you compare the power amp section of the 4400, 4500 and 7012, they really are virtually identical, even the rail voltages, to the decimal points.

I included "virtually" just to hedge a little in the unlikely event that I missed something.

The power supplies have identical published specs based on available info such as power consumption, and storage capacitance, that is 2*15,000 if, 71 V.

My source of info are the owner's manuals and service manuals.

 

[PENG]

I don't think I've specifically seen it from Denon either but not sure aside from mentions in fora of D&M....but like Peng says, their amp sections are pretty similar. I know my Denon can do it in 7ch driven, tho don't think I've seen bench tests bearing that out and it could well be model based for both?

I think you are right that they can do it for 7ch if you go by bench tests done by audiovision.de but they most likely we're measured at 1% THD.

The 70% guarantee for 5ch were based on specs, that means at 0.05% for the 7000 series and 0.08% for the 5000 and 6000 series.

 

[Gmoney]

You are right, I assume the 880 is better, but even if it is, it won't be as powerful as the HK AVR525 except in two channel driven only. So the Denon and Marantz, or RX-A1080 will be a little closer to being what he might consider "perfect replacement" assuming he no longer needs those legacy connections.

Yamaha RX-A1080 (Test)

audiovision.de

Yamaha RX-A1020 A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures

HT Labs Measures Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 113.5 watts 1% distortion at 129.2 watts Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 63.9 watts 1% distortion at 73.2 watts Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1%...

www.soundandvision.com

Harman/Kardon AVR 630 Receiver HT Labs Measures

HT Labs Measures: Harman/Kardon AVR 630 Five channels driven into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 79.7 watts; 1% distortion at 93.3 watts Analog frequency response in direct mode: –0.35 dB at 10 Hz; –0.12 dB at 20 Hz; –0.13 dB at 20 kHz; –0.72 dB at 50 kHz. Analog frequency response with signal...

www.soundandvision.com

Note that the 630 has a slightly higher rated output spec than the 525 but there were no measurements found on the www for the 525 so the 630 will have to be used for reference.

We pretty much have to include some Yamaha models regardless, as ADTG may be watching you know..

PENG, KEW is Correct on the a860 I believe thats the Yamaha unit that Gene found issues with, maybe the A870 to. That H/K unit the OP is Referring to is a way older model AVR. At that time H/K where building a much better amp side in their AVR's so yeah a1080 or the Denon 4400/4500 would indeed match better for a replacement. It seems Manufacturers are Scaling down the middle level AVR,s hope not to much cause the 900 to 1100 range is a sweet spot for us "bottom feeders" of
price to Affordable range. Specially when on sale at Bargain prices. Than the Sharks start a Feeding frenzy. Peng, that's Laymans terms for hobbies without.